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Why is ADC allowed to outlifesteal Garens Judgement? Buff Garen.

waki1·2/26/2015, 6:00:48 AM·3 votes·1,507 views
League of Legends Match History

Instead of crying Draven is OP, lets do some math. I use 4/26/0 masteries and 9 AD marks (3 Armour quints, not damage.) Garens base AD is 117, 117+9=126. Black Cleaver+Last Whisper makes Garens AD 216, with Dragon, giving Garens total AD 229.

Garens Q deals 130+0.4(229) bonus physical damage, totaling into 222 physical damage. Garens E deals 1116 physical damage over 3 seconds. Garens QE combo deals 1338 physical damage over 3 seconds in burst. That is 446 DPS.

Lets ignore Draven, even so Draven deals more damage than Ashe, because Ashe has no steroids, and I am giving a proof on why late game Garen can never kill an ADC 1v1.

lets use Ashe with 100 armour, base AD, base AS with the build in this order, Ashe base AD is 100. After adding items=325, 55% crit IE crit=813, Lifesteal=30% To simplify the crit, we do a simple math, 325(0.45)+813(0.55)=593. Ashe auto attacks deal 593 physical damage. Ashe base attack speed is 0.658+68%+115%(items)=0.658*2.83=1.86 aa/s

Berkserkers Greaves +25% AS Infinity Edge +80 AD, 20% crit. Phantom Dancer 50% attack speed, 35% crit Bloodthirster +80AD, 20% lifesteal Last Whisper +40 AD, 35% armour pen. Blade of the Ruined King, ignoring passive. 25AD, 10% lifesteal, 40% attack speed.

Lets assume Garen has 250 armour. (In that game, I only had Sunfire Cape, Im being generous at his tankiness.) After Last Whisper, I have 162 armour. That means I divide Ashe damage by 2.62.

593/2.62=226,

Ashe has 1.83 auto attacks per second.

2261.83=Ashe deals 413 DPS to Garen per second, with 124 health healed per second. (4130.3)

Recall Garens QE combo is 446 DPS over 3 seconds. Assuming it cuts Ashes armour by 80, (Thats 20 left), Garens QE combo will deal 371 DPS, If 124 health is healed by Ashe every second (Lifesteal), that means Garen only deals 247 sustained physical damage each second to Ashe.

If Garen has 40% CDR, then his QE combo has at least 4.8s CD, during this time his DPS is lower than 446, which he can only aa. 229(Garens AD)/1.2(Ashe Armour)=191 damage per auto attack. During the 4.8s CD, Garen only deals 67 sustained physical damage each second to Ashe.

That means in 7.8s, 3seconds 247 DPS, and 4.8second, 67 DPS. 67(4.8)+3(247)=1063. 1063/7.8=136.

Conclusion: If Garen were to fight Ashe 1v1 late game, Garen can only hurt Ashe 136 damage per second. This is assumed to be perfect melee to melee duel without kiting. It would take considerable time to ignite+ult Ashe. This Assumes Garen has the BEST CASE SINARIO, Ashe has the WORST CASE SINARIO, I did not even consider adding the % HP shred into Ashes auto. Now imagine ADCs with stronger steroids. Koggy? Vayne? Sivir? Garen wont even have a change to reach them!!

10 Comments

Raptamei2/26/2015, 7:24:59 AM5 votes

Riot doesn't want Garen to be viable because he's too simple.

Maximum Zilean2/26/2015, 6:05:57 AM4 votes

Main thing I feel Garen needs is something done for his ult. Right now its easily the worst execute in the game simply because thats all it does.

Look at other examples of execute type abilities you'll commonly see. Darius Ultimate: true damage and can be used more then once if you kill the target. Jinx Ultimate: global range. Riven Ultimate: Ranged, and AoE

Now compare these to Garen's ultimate. Just damage. Nothing else.

Yulen Xoshxius2/26/2015, 6:57:51 AM3 votes

I like a "buff this guy" rally over a "nerf tis guy" rally.

BlueBuffandChill2/26/2015, 6:07:04 AM2 votes

riot doesnt listen to anyone so it doesnt matter

67chrome2/26/2015, 6:52:48 AM1 votes

Well, at least you're doing math rather than throwing random stuff out there.

But this:

Berkserkers Greaves +25% AS Infinity Edge +80 AD, 20% crit. Phantom Dancer 50% attack speed, 35% crit Bloodthirster +80AD, 20% lifesteal Last Whisper +40 AD, 35% armour pen. Blade of the Ruined King, ignoring passive. 25AD, 10% lifesteal, 40% attack speed.

Average game only lasts ~33 minutes and sees 11,000 gold per player. Which breaks down into three 3k items, 1k for boots, and ~1k left over when the Nexus explodes (or on starting items/consumables).

It's worth noting you don't get the unique passives of most 3k items until the entire thing is completed, which means you generally have no unique bonus early game, 1 unique bonus mid-game, and 2 unique bonuses late-game, with a 3rd coming out for the final showdown.

With that - it's really important to consider there are early-game champions like Renekton, Shaco, and Leblanc along with mid-game champions like Ezreal, Corki, and Lucian along with late-game champions like Vayne, Tryndamere, and Poppy. Just like Vayne sucks in early game, a lot of early/mid game champions (Garen) are not going to be solid end-game champions. Riot tends to balance a champion's power over the course of a game rather than keeping it at a consistent level at any given point in the game.

Not to mention you only factored in Cleaver and Whisper vs. 6 items - if you bothered to apply the passives of any armor item contributing to the 250 you ran with in this calculation it would result in a very different end-result. Sunfire's DPS should also not be underestmated.

Finally - Ashe doesn't out-life steal Garen's Judgment in your example, despite not factoring in multiple item bonuses on Garen and basically comparing 4-item Garen vs. 6 item Ashe, and your title being:

Why is ADC allowed to outlifesteal Garens Judgement? Buff Garen.

Ra1d3/5/2015, 8:41:30 PM1 votes

The problem here is you are focusing on garen as simply a tank. You give garden mostly tanky items he will be low damage and can't hurt much. The way I build him he usually comes around 150 armor with 136 Mr but roughly 300-400 ad. Adding crits with IE and ghostblade my crits tend to do about 1000. I've had garden doing as much as 1500 with basic attacks but that was four ad items and only sunfire. You didn't take into consideration garens w active or that he can ult Ashe at about 40-50% HP and kill her. Ashe can kits garden but use yomuus active + q and you'd catch her stun her spin and ult. Garden can easily take any ADC once he's on top of them. Champs like vayne Quinn and tristana can easy escape him but as long as they're not silenced. And if they push you away use your next q to escape and let them chase then use the q after that to do a quick 180 silence them and kill. Garden is just fine the way he is. His ult may need a bit of a rework but the rest of his kit makes him very capable of taking a ADC.