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Singed and Heimerdinger.

Dangerous Man··1 votes·441 views

You see, I'm sure these champions are balanced. However, they both have the same problem. They each force you to learn an entirely new playstyle specific to playing against them that you have no use for anywhere else in League. So the fact that I encounter these champions once a month or less in lane, means it's literally impossible for me to learn how to beat them.

Singed: -The only champion who clears waves behind your turret, removing your minions without you being able to chase -The only champion who deals tons of damage without the need to engage in any normal sense -The only champion who you can't chase even if he is 200 hp, he'll have 600-900 movespeed and tons of health regeneration, so if you want to actually kill him your only option is pre-6 (before he can outrun every champion in the game)

Heimerdinger: -The only champion who has high damage zones you can't enter in lane -The only champion who you can't kill solo because of his death zones unless he does, in which case he's bad -The only champion who can kill you in 2-3 seconds while using stopwatch/zhonyas -Probably the lowest effort champion in League of Legends

The problem here is that these champions are so rare and have such playstyles to where you either lose or win not depending on your skill, it really just depends on their skill. If they are stupid then you win if they are decent then you lose. You can't do much of anything to outplay Heim since he just needs to walk and use W/E and if he's bad at that then he's really just bad at video games. Same with Singed, if you suck at running away than you need to re-evaluate your life choices. Their unique playstyle (is it easy to agree that they are the biggest outlier champions in league?) forces you to have learned a completely separate playstyle just to know how to beat them. This is completely unfair because the less these champions are played, the higher their win rate. This doesn't apply as hard on most champions because their playstyles are remotely similar in that you have to go to lane and you have to hit your abilities and position well. Except for those 2 for some reason.

The fact that these 2 aren't scheduled for a rework just makes me confused at Riot's goals. Why rework somebody like Irelia (who is a pretty normal champion with normal abilities and normal playstyles and a real learning curve) when you have these champions that just ignore the basic rules of a game like this and just walk to kill? How is it balanced to have champions with literally no skill and to beat them you actually just have to do nothing for 20 minutes and hope you get ganks. I mean, Riot seems to care about healthy mechanics and agression over passive games so...fix them? Do anything with them? Make them moderately normal? If you can't get them to be normal then at least make them on the same level as Shaco?

*Shaco, Olaf, and Nunu are minor versions of this

Side note: I regret a lot of posts I make on the boards, but this is something I've been thinking about for years so I'm going to stick to it since I passionately believe in everything I'm saying here but I suck with words so I'll try to give as many explanations as possible, not just blind rants.

8 Comments

ZephyrDrake3 votes

why would riot rework them just because you are unable to deal with them? Riot is reworking Irelia because what does she has over any other bruiser top laner? she is just a walking ball of stats that beats you if her stats are higher than yours and loses otherwise. Heimer and Singed have very unique gameplay styles which is something that they are not going to remove from them so why even bother reworking them? all it would do is make it so that that unique playstyle is even more pronounced than it currently is so you will still have the exact same issue but even worst. Riot likes unique gameplay styles way more than generic ones

Dangerous Man1 votes

{quoted}

why would riot rework them just because you are unable to deal with them? Riot is reworking Irelia because what does she has over any other bruiser top laner? she is just a walking ball of stats that beats you if her stats are higher than yours and loses otherwise. Heimer and Singed have very unique gameplay styles which is something that they are not going to remove from them so why even bother reworking them? all it would do is make it so that that unique playstyle is even more pronounced than it currently is so you will still have the exact same issue but even worst. Riot likes unique gameplay styles way more than generic ones

I know why Irelia is being reworked btw, I'm just using her in comparison since she's not a completely fucked and outdated champion like Nunu who has a skill problem as well except he can actually fit into a meta/comp. Singed and Heim are troll champions and are not forming to the game like literally every other champion does.

FYI all your arguments consist of 'you are wrong since you are one person who has a problem and one person doesn't matter to Riot' I understand that but that's the point of the boards. To give opinions.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pi Xel Moloto V,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EjWJkUO4,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-02-24T03:40:19.927+0000)

I know why Irelia is being reworked btw, I'm just using her in comparison since she's not a completely fucked and outdated champion like Nunu who has a skill problem as well except he can actually fit into a meta/comp. Singed and Heim are troll champions and are not forming to the game like literally every other champion does.

FYI all your arguments consist of 'you are wrong since you are one person who has a problem and one person doesn't matter to Riot' I understand that but that's the point of the boards. To give opinions.

no, my argument is that they do not mind having champions with unique playstyles and they are not going to rework them just because of that. Sorry that you are unable to deal with 2 champions one that is very simple which is "hey you enter this zone? i will destroy you!" and the other which is simply "i want you to follow me so that you slowly die and i win". Sorry the game doesn't conform to your ideals, sorry the game has champions that aren't your typical "hey this champion is beaten by doing X" that does not make them troll champions. That makes them unique champions. If you cannot deal with them? that's on you and not on Riot or anyone else. Learn how to deal with them. There are plenty of ways for you to learn how to deal with them and saying dumb things like "i will use skills that i will never use anywhere else" just shows the type of player you are because there are plenty of skills that you use against them that you also use in your games against others

KennysDreamGirl2 votes

So you're mad because you don't know how to play against some of the most simple champs in league so for that reason they should be reworked to fit the norm of champions play styles in league? Ok sure bud

Balderdash1 votes

TL;DR I can't play against these champions so they are wrong and should be changed

Dangerous Man1 votes

K you guys took this the wrong way. I'm not saying they're overpowered and I'm not saying I can't deal with them. I'm saying they are champions that can't be dealt with in a normal sense (in relation to the rest of the game) and it's basically like you are playing a different game for one match every month or 2. And more of their wins come from the fact that you have a bad matchup rather than being able to outplay. Yes, if you look at my last game you'll see a loss against a Singed. But I was getting camped by a Rengar, I was tower dived about 6 times before 17 minutes. I was dicking on singed getting him to the lowest amount of hp but he has that 600+ movespeed that removes your ability to kill him after. So he becomes a useless one-ability champion but you can't remove him from the game so he's really not useless. His flip is such a good ability and he's such a bad target you should not fight but you also should because he's annoying and it just makes no sense. Heimerdinger is the same except I haven't seen one in 8+ months, luckily I still know he is still the same champion and wasn't changed to fit the skill-based part of League. Both these champions ignore skill and ignore the outplay/counterplay. They don't have the essential thing champions need to fit into this game. They have no skill and they are purely champion-select wins. THIS SHOULD NOT BE A WAY OF WINNING IS THE POINT IM TRYING TO PROVE. THEY NEED TO MAKE THESE CHAMPIONS ACTUALLY FIT INTO THE GAME SO THAT WE CAN ACTUALLY HAVE A NICE BALANCED GAME NOT FORM TO THE META PROBLEM DOTA HAS (heroes counter each other heavily so skill is removed and matchup-based wins are increased, this is not healthy nor does it feel fair to play against your counter). Singed and Heim do exactly what you don't need in a skill based game. It'd be like adding a sentry gun and a bullet deflecting vest to CS:GO. They're both beatable but they don't fit into the game and they aren't based on skill.

Literally every other champion in the game has logical steps and movements and have counterplay elements that any champion can use against them. However if you're playing somebody like Akali against Heim, it's basically over and you lost just because of a matchup. It's super easy for a Heim to make Akali lose all gold and never get a kill. She's melee, squishy and has no cc and low sustain...he should just dick on her unless he's absolutely stupid.

My loss has nothing to do with this post, it's the fact that I played against him Obviously you didn't read the post to see my arguments and use logical reason, you just went the generic "gameplay section response" that you can comment on like half the gameplay posts. I say he is impossible because of literally every other factor except for singed himself which is WHY I have a problem with singed/heim. I explained this like 3 times in the original post.

*This is not a problem I thought of recently, every time I play against a Singed or Heim I seriously think they need a rework because they aren't skill-based. The challenger players have a lot of knowledge outside the champ such as minion control, awareness and position to give them success as well as perfect muscle memory and damage memory. They can be successful but only if you just one-trick the fuck out of them for like a year or if another factor comes into play.

MerloJohn1 votes

Heimerdinger is a NO skill champ?? Try to land a stun and we will talk again...

Dangerous Man1 votes

Guys I have a new champion idea, how about his Q is a targeted, toggled laser with 800 range and deals 100-250 dps and the W is a 50% slow and the E is a 50hp heal.

This kit makes sense, it's beatable, but it's not balanced even if it does have a 50% win rate. It's just so bad but can beat some champions without effort otherwise he's garbage. If he gets fed there's no counterplay left to comeback. The kit works outside the way League is supposed to work with skill and all that stuff ya know? So it really has no place there and that's why all the new champions have delays, dashes, and travel times and why old, leftover champions lack a lot of this.

I could make a list of champions that suffer from the same elements as Singed/Heim in weaker amounts if you'd like. But the fact that they suffer it in weaker amounts makes them fit into League so there's no point naming them if they're all (mostly) OK.

I might say though that Nunu/Olaf need the same thing, outdated, no skill, absolute stupid counters if you have some outside factors against you.

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