My biggest issue with graves is how one sided the shotgun theme is.

Kizuna··7 votes·748 views

If anything, I think it's completely retarded he does full AD damage at max auto attack range with 1 of his shells tapping you.

The real issue isn't much about the fact he can crit you for 8274891274182741294714 damage and heal 400hp at the same time point blank (although the fact he dumpsters both Yi and Rammus is a bit disconcerting) - it's the fact that even barely getting into max attack range and tapping you with the bare edge of a slug, he still crits you for like 900.

It's a shotgun.

Riot has shown with Kalista that they can make adc's have ratios on their auto attacks that are less than 100%.

Graves should be given the same treatment - the farther his shells travel, the more AD (and perhaps even crit dmg like yasuo) falloff he suffers. Max range should be like 0.8 AD and 1.5 (instead of 2.0) crit - something like that, for an example.

When graves is up there on the frontlines, yeah SHOOTGUN. But he shouldn't ALSO be able to reliably poke for insane dps from max range with a shotgun, tossing in shiv procs and random drops of 700+ damage, just with autos - that's insane and not even thematically cohesive, or in line with the exact change they made to MAKE him more thematically invested. If you're gonna do that, you gotta go all the way, not just some huge lopsided buff with zero downsides.

13 Comments

itz Gabe4 votes

Riot thought it'd be fun to make shotguns as op in this game as they are in FPS's

Bears Dont Care1 votes

[{quoted}](name=itz Gabe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EeZAMcRg,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-11-16T16:01:00.134+0000)

Riot thought it'd be fun to make shotguns as op in this game as they are in FPS's

Shotguns are actually less effective in first person shooter's than they are in real life. In real life, shotgun have a higher effective range

LadyRenly1 votes

[{quoted}](name=itz Gabe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EeZAMcRg,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-11-16T16:01:00.134+0000)

Riot thought it'd be fun to make shotguns as op in this game as they are in FPS's

I find it's really hit/miss. Often they are either underpowered, or overpowered, but heavily lean towards underpowered, but shotguns are the one weapon type that gets more flame than any other because of its (usual) insta killing power

Ralanr2 votes

Well every other marksman deals the same damage no matter the range. Graves also has a weakness to being blocked. So hiding behind minions is a good idea.

IcyPepper2 votes

Well every other marksman deals the same damage no matter the range.

But... Graves doesn't. He's the exception that very exact rule I'm quoting you for (so there is no confusion). Since he's unique, OP is saying Riot should go all the way in that regard.

Giving him a small AD penalty at max range would push him to get closer for more damages, alongside the minion blocking you've mentioned. Make him high risk high reward, while making him less strong if he decides to poke.

I don't think anybody wants to gut him, just give him a lovetap on the aa AD ratio akin to Kalista and make him want to make decisions more often. If he needs a base AD adjustment, that would probably be fine.

Ralanr1 votes

Does he not have a penalty at long range? My apologies, he originally did with his old Q (which was frustrating) and I haven't noticed with his new AA's because I tend to be in everyones face when playing him.

IcyPepper1 votes

That's fair. You've been playing him right! XD

Range isn't always considered for risk/reward other than zoning dangers, but some skills and abilities are rewarded for being close (Graves' aa) or hitting at a certain range (Jinx rocket, Ahri Q).

Ralanr1 votes

Playing him right? No, that can't be it. I'm just an unranked scrub.

GhastlyGhoulMan1 votes

I agree. Can we get a Red's thought on this?

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

He already deals less then full auto damage with a single bullet, as well as it being able to be blocked by minions.

I'm not saying he doesn't need some tuning to bring down his power (Q is getting nerfed on PBE), but your idea doesn't really help anything

charcharmunro1 votes

Isn't this essentially the same problem Graves had way back when? He was able to deal stupid damage even at range, and even more damage up close while being rather tanky for a marksman? History repeats, I guess.

alfavhunter1 votes

It's simple really

Make each shot deal less 50% damage, make him shoot out 8 shots on normal, and 16 shots on crit

So a max range 1 shot hits you is .5 AD damage, if your a little closer 2 will hit you and the closer you are the more he will hit you

At max range crit 2 will hit you giving him 1.0 AD on that crit

Just this change would make him forced to be closer to do noticeable damage

It would however require a change to his multiple hit multiplier

For example each shell would deal 50% live damage, 2nd shells gets 100% damage effect of first shell , 3 is 50% damage effectiveness, 4+ is 25%

So striking all 8 would deal 3.75 AD but requires bear melee range. And a crit would be 5.75 AD if all shells hit the same target

This change would make him much more healthy as he would have very minimal damage from farther away while devastating at close range

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

wait what? graves already has a penalty from shooting at max range he loses damage from that

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