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Vi vs Lee Sin 7.3

the Rìver King··40 votes·4,243 views
Patch 7.3 Notes

Preemptive Warning: Fatigue induced salt incoming.

Taken from Riot's 7.3 patch notes...

Vi Movement speed and base attack speed reduced. 2017’s jungle has proven pretty favorable for Vi, even with one or her stronger keystones being nerfed. As such, we’re taking this opportunity to go under the hood and retune her base stats to be more in line with others in her weight class. For a champion with a two-charge attack reset and two gap-closers, her base movement and attack speeds were a touch out of line. The only thing that should be excessive about Vi is her force. Base Stats MOVEMENT SPEED 345 ⇒ 340 BASE ATTACK SPEED 0.644 ⇒ 0.625

Taken from League of Legends Wikipedia...

Lee Sin Movespeed: 350 Lee Sin Attackspeed: 0.651 (+ 0 – 51%)

This is despite the fact that Lee Sin also has two gapclosers and an attack speed steroid passive in his kit. This next bit is anecdotal but still worth mentioning, Lee Sin's traditional weakness (lategame) doesn't really exist anymore as games simply do not generally last that long, as shown here: http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/game-durations

So if Vi's base movement speed and attack speeds are a touch out of line, what are Lee Sin's?

54 Comments

Attticus Finch30 votes

Vi is currently overpowered. The state of Lee Sin has nothing to do with the healthiness of another champion.

LegacyDAP2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Attticus Finch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EdB6gBPd,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-02-07T23:10:45.469+0000)

Vi is currently overpowered. The state of Lee Sin has nothing to do with the healthiness of another champion.

This so much!

Jmman6 votes

But it he still has an overload kit.... and that has nothing to do with being op or not. And he doesn't need it all. Somethings has to go to make room for other junglers. Name one time he hasn't been a top jungle pick.

ModCaptainMårvelous8 votes

I'm sorry but no. Vi isn't overpowered. The game changed around her.

So, of course, when CotC gets reworked/removed and the jungle changes to leave Vi in a shitty spot, she'll be successfully sejuani'd. Of course the boards doesn't care because she's not a tank.

Venomar16 votes

Just becuase the game changed around her doesnt mean she isn't stronger than the rest of the pack. If someone dies in my family and leaves me a billion dollars, I'm a billionaire. If I make a billion dollars on my own, I'm a billionaire.

Doesn't matter two shits about how it came to be, it is what it is. Vi is strong regardless of how she got to be there.

Tbh I commend riots approach to balancing vi. They realize they have a pretty well designed champion that is only in flavor because of the meta game shift (even if it is thier own damned fault). Rather than gutting her and putting her on the bench they're trying to fine tune some outlying details to bring her in line with everyone else. Shame they don't do this with everyone.

Attticus Finch2 votes

{quoted}

I'm sorry but no. Vi isn't overpowered. The game changed around her.

That doesn't mean she isn't overpowered, that means changes to the game made her overpowered. You're arguing semantics.

ModCaptainMårvelous3 votes

No, this isn't semantics at all.

If a champion isn't really all that strong and then suddenly becomes strong because the game changed, you don't nerf the champion. We've discussed this before. It's why the term "Sejuani'd" exists. It's why after they change the game (again), Vi is going to be in a worse state and in need of either reversions or buffs.

If Riot would revert stuff should the game change? Sure, it'd be fine with that. But they're not. It's a classic case of nerf the champ, remove the thing and then leave the champ in a worse state. It's disgusting that we'll get up in arms over Sejuani but not other champions because other champs aren't tanks.

Attticus Finch3 votes

{quoted}

No, this isn't semantics at all.

If a champion isn't really all that strong and then suddenly becomes strong because the game changed, you don't nerf the champion. We've discussed this before. It's why the term "Sejuani'd" exists. It's why after they change the game (again), Vi is going to be in a worse state and in need of either reversions or buffs.

If Riot would revert stuff should the game change? Sure, it'd be fine with that. But they're not. It's a classic case of nerf the champ, remove the thing and then leave the champ in a worse state. It's disgusting that we'll get up in arms over Sejuani but not other champions because other champs aren't tanks.

Ridiculous nonsense. Riot doesn't plan on reverting game mechanics when they implement them in the first place. Riot didn't plan on nerfing cinderhulk when they implemented it, knowing in advance that Sejuani and other champs were going to abuse the shit out of it- just like they didn't plan on removing devourer when they put it in the game.

So as far as Riot is concerned CotC is here to stay, and going by the latest PBE notes they don't plan on touching it for awhile, if ever again. Thus your tacit implication that instead of addressing the specific outliers (in this case, Vi) they should instead attack the tool being abused (in this case CotC) and making it weaker for everyone else that uses it in addition to Vi, is dumb. The hyper-majority of champions that use the same game mechanics that Vi uses (CotC, the new jungle changes etc) are fairly healthy. Punishing all of them instead of the small handful of abusers is nonsensical.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Ridiculous nonsense. Riot doesn't plan on reverting game mechanics when they implement them in the first place. Riot didn't plan on nerfing cinderhulk when they implemented it, knowing in advance that Sejuani and other champs were going to abuse the shit out of it- just like they didn't plan on removing devourer when they put it in the game.

Of course you don't plan on it. That doesn't mean you don't alter things when they do change. Did you know Nocturne had his ult range reverted several patches ago to what it was on-release and subsequently nerfed? Because the game changed around Nocturne and new releases made his original ult more in-line. I wouldn't care nearly as much if Riot reverted things after the game changes. But they don't in the majority of situations.

So as far as Riot is concerned CotC is here to stay, and going by the latest PBE notes they don't plan on touching it for awhile, if ever again. Thus your tacit implication that instead of addressing the specific outliers (in this case, Vi) they should instead attack the tool being abused (in this case CotC) and making it weaker for everyone else that uses it in addition to Vi, is dumb. The hyper-majority of champions that use the same game mechanics that Vi uses (CotC, the new jungle changes etc) are fairly healthy. Punishing all of them instead of the small handful of abusers is nonsensical.

Warlords. Fervor. Thunderlords. Any number of jungle items from previous seasons.

Sejuani and Sion got nerfed because Cinderhulk was "here to stay". Other junglers in the previous season got nerfed because SotA was "Here to stay". Pardon my skepticism but for a balance team that argues about things being a permanent addition, a lot of them aren't. Hell, we already heard rumors that they want to expand mastery trees further and divert them from three-to-five. Do you think Vi will get stuff back when the game changes around her? Do you think Sejuani has received even momentary buffs due to Cinderhulk's changes leaving her in a weaker spot?

Again: This is something repeated over and over. But when it's a damage dealer it's ok to happen (Vi is the latest in a long line of damage-dealing champs abusing something defensive) but god forbid it's a tank, otherwise we invent the term Sejuani to make sure that this never happens again...at least to tanks because tanks are precious babies who must be protected and bottlefed.

Ahristocats1 votes

she's freewin with ivern and lee sin and you're telling me that she's not overpowered?

she's a mobile darius, as tanky as him except that she has hard ccs+mobility+can kill a squishy in 1.5 sec please, she had to be nerfed

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

Didn't see these arguments before the game changed around her and the buffs she received before (Back in late Season 6) didn't push her over the edge at all.

Game changes, Vi is suddenly really good. Can't wait for Season 8 when another character I play gets the game changed around them and is left in an even worse spot.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Attticus Finch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EdB6gBPd,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-02-07T23:10:45.469+0000)

Vi is currently overpowered. The state of Lee Sin has nothing to do with the healthiness of another champion.

Shes a victim of the courage introduction. Pretty sure no one complained about her in the past.

In any case, if courage is to stay, she is to be nerfed, its only fair it seems.

Jefftiffy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Attticus Finch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EdB6gBPd,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-02-07T23:10:45.469+0000)

Vi is currently overpowered. The state of Lee Sin has nothing to do with the healthiness of another champion.

Also Lee Sin doesn't shred armor for other champs to abuse on top of having a double gap closer.

Succubús GF3 votes

He does have two gap closers though? And also gets bonus lifesteal in his kit that he DOESNT NEED

Jefftiffy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Afk Warding,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EdB6gBPd,comment-id=000000030000,timestamp=2017-02-08T04:20:05.145+0000)

He does have two gap closers though? And also gets bonus lifesteal in his kit that he DOESNT NEED

Take away his lifesteal and he literally loses an ability. He also burns energy to activate it. It's the only reason he can clear the jungle. So no he does need it, and no he has no defensive steroids. He has no armor pen and no defensive steroids, but he does have a double gap closer. Guess who has that and more? Vi. Guess who's kit is easier? Vi's. Guess who's kit is more powerful. Vi. You see the problem?

And before you say but Lee has an AS steroid. So does Vi. Lee gets a 50 hp shield Vi gets a 100+ damage shield.

macromite1 votes

don't lie to yourself. i can full clear with motherfucking raka, lee doesn't need the heal.

ReZisT Lust1 votes

Q and w is what they mean

nice table1 votes

but lee is also currently overpowered.

Karn Bishop2 votes

Oh i agree, the problem is they wont touch lee sin with changes like these because it would be unfair to lee sin mains and if it is unfair to lee sin mains it should be unfair to vi mains as well.

They should have followed up with lee sin and hit his movespeed, just the movespeed as it makes the divide between good lee's and bad ones much clearer, in fact i would dare say it would create an actual line for him.

You can't even argue the different champions require different changes armor here because in this situation these two champions happen to have the exact same problem in the jungle it is just that one of them seems to be magically protected from the necessary changes that he needs.

Then again i also believe that ivern should not be able to mark enemy jungle camps if enemy jungler is within what i call a camp contesting radius so i must be crazy and evil to think that there should be reasonable ways to respond to an enemy champions play making.

Noxious Blastt1 votes

but lee being not a healthy and not refusing nerf has nothing to do with another champion being nerfed bc op . So then , why x champion is nerfed over y when x=y .

Serika Zero4 votes

Lee needs nerfs, but rito will not do it

Raxistaicho2 votes

Guys, Elise ALSO has two gapclosers and an attack speed steroid in her kit!!! that means something, right? :U

Succubús GF2 votes

Elises rappel is probably the longest gap closer cd, which makes no sense to me but whatever, and her q is hardly a gap closer because its range is very small, ;( buff elise 2k17

Supreme Senpai693 votes

They nerfed her movement speed for the same exact reason actually. Same with Kindred too I think

TotalJerk2 votes

I dislike giving any melee champion that relies on autos for damage reduced movement speed regardless of their amount of dashes. Champions who are designed to repeatedly do melee auto attacks have high base movement speed for a reason. If they aren't faster than a fleeing target they have to walk back in range with every auto attack which makes them super clunky. You can already see this annoying bullshit on a Mordekaiser trying to Q without Rylai's. On top of that, 5 ms is going to do fuckall to stop her from diving into your backline. To make matters worse, 5 ms is also going to mean nothing after she blue smites you anyway.

TheEdgeOfDestiny2 votes

Taken from League of Legends Wikipedia...

Elise Movespeed: 325 Elise Attackspeed: 0.625

This is despite the fact that Elise also has two gapclosers and an attack speed steroid in her kit. This next bit is anecdotal but still worth mentioning, Elise's traditional weakness (lategame) doesn't really exist anymore as games simply do not generally last that long, as shown here:

Sinlaire2 votes

her movespeed in spider form jumps up to 345 which is Vi's MS after nerfs and % short of lee.

she gets more MS in spider form as a melee and less in human form as a caster. IT's a trade off with a misconception if you dont know about her speed boost in second form.

Dominick Destine2 votes

Lee Sin never "fell off", that's just a red herring by Lee fans and Lee players. He scales better than 90% of the cast of characters... people have run the numbers many times and it is always the same. He is only cleanly outscaled by hyperscalers like Kog, Vayne, Nasus, etc.

The character is faceroll easy to play and brokenly overpowered.

Junkο4 votes

I wouldn't say he is easy to play, but he has definitely been way too strong for way too long. Fuck this "He is fun to watch" thing Riot has going on with Lee.

Dominick Destine1 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't say he is easy to play

Then you'd be mistaken.

h5LYF41Lam1 votes

lee doesnt have 2 autoattack resets.

Tychusfindlay91911 votes

{quoted}

lee doesnt have 2 autoattack resets.

No he just has a passive dedicated to a near permanent AS steroid if he isn't a goon with his abilities.

h5LYF41Lam1 votes

vi is at a realy good spot i dont know why people are complaining.

WoonStruck8 votes

Because Lee also seriously needs nerfs.

xelaker1 votes

{quoted}

lee doesnt have 2 autoattack resets.

vi has mana. are we just listing facts? grass is green the sky is blue

DaNinad4 votes

{quoted}

vi has mana. are we just listing facts? grass is green the sky is blue

Graves doesn't have a cigar

Anidan1 votes

Yet McCree in Overwatch has one and they market all over the world, too... some things just make no sense. We must come to accept this.

ReZisT Lust3 votes

grass isnt always green

DeadJokr1 votes

and here i thought it would be that Vi-sin joke

Supreme Senpai691 votes

Vi-sion*

DeadJokr1 votes

well now i feel retarded

TheEdgeOfDestiny1 votes

Taken from League of Legends Wikipedia...

Volibear Movespeed: 345 Volibear Attackspeed: 0.658

This is despite the fact that Volibear doesn't have any gapclosers and has attack speed steroid in his kit. This next bit is anecdotal but still worth mentioning, Volibear's traditional weakness (lategame) doesn't really exist anymore as games simply do not generally last that long, as shown here:

TheEdgeOfDestiny1 votes

Taken from League of Legends Wikipedia...

Xin Zhao Movespeed: 345 Xin Zhao Attackspeed: 0.676

This is despite the fact that Xin Zhao has a gapcloser and has attack speed steroid in his kit. This next bit is anecdotal but still worth mentioning, Xin Zhao's traditional weakness (lategame) doesn't really exist anymore as games simply do not generally last that long, as shown here:

TheEdgeOfDestiny1 votes

Taken from League of Legends Wikipedia...

Warwick Movespeed: 335 Warwick Attackspeed: 0.638

This is despite the fact that Warwick has two gapclosers and an attack speed steroid passive in his kit.. This next bit is anecdotal but still worth mentioning,Warwick traditional weakness (lategame) doesn't really exist anymore as games simply do not generally last that long, as shown here:

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

You realise that 335 Movespeed is low, right?

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Naw, they're actually looking at her base movespeed in the context of her mobility while they ignore that on lee.

Bard R Friday1 votes

Attack speed steroid does not equal two auto resets. Vi also has hard cc and damage on both of her gap closers and they are easier to hit than Lee's. You can't compare champions with terms that general.

sobi9991 votes

I don't think that nerf to Vi was something of significance,. She will still stand in a pretty solid position but atleast that nerf was a good start after COTC. Don't want her completely gutted and face lee sins everywhere.

AninLegions7771 votes

Dude stop crying. Lee was nerfed a while back. His damage was significantly lowered and thanks to the Lethality buffs, playing him now is risky AF. So no, he doesn't need nerfs as urgently as Vi who presses two buttons and locks you down.

Frius1 votes

lee sin is riots` puppy

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