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Darius too strong?

TyrekGoldenspear··82 votes·4,500 views

Check out the last three games I have played recently.

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2346479227/233261828?tab=overview

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2346449031/233261828?tab=overview

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2346478077/233261828?tab=overview

All of these games had Darius in it. The one game I won was with Darius on my side. The two that I lost had Darius on the enemy team. The Darius had a large KDA in all these games.

Does Darius need a nerf?

Short answer. No, not at all.

Why should he be punished for doing his job well?

In all of these games he was against a lane opponent he could bully, so of course he won lane.

However me and my team failed to keep him off me and out ADC like we should have.

He was always the initiator.

He is weak to kiting. What should have been done was poke him down. Our frontliners just went up and fought him. Had we caught him in a CC lock we would have beaten him in the games we lost.

In most of these games he was the only danger as I had bullied most of my lane opponents into being weak early. However I made the mistake of poking Darius down to half health and thinking I could take him with a full combo. Q included. Naturally when I got close enough to Q he E'd me and then dunked me.

Had we played better, we would have won all 3 games, regardless of the existence of Darius. The Darius wisely took advantage of our disorganization and after winning his lane took his advantage to other lanes and snowballed his allies.

More context would also explain the wins/losses. In the first game we lost they had a godlike Udyr that kept pressure up all game and helped his bot smash our off-meta bot. In the second loss our Vayne spent too much time farming, even when objectives were being contested. Without her their team just plain beat us in attrition. Darius was the icing on the cake.

TL;DR: Instead of saying that a champion is OP or needs to be nerfed look at the whole picture. A match history summary only tells part of the story, and is not an indicator of whether a champion needs to be nerfed or not.

81 Comments

Mira Arya Enthe17 votes

A really good post overall Tyrek! Too bad it will receive reflex downvotes from Darius mains who did not even read it ;P

TyrekGoldenspear14 votes

Hey thanks!

Just trying to inject some logic into the salt mine that is Gameplay recently. XD

dragon1xx6 votes

LOGIC? GAMEPLAY? HERESY!

Schàdenfreude2 votes

lol I'm a Darius main. And I did downvote this post before reading it but once I actually read it I upvoted it lmao.

Supreme Senpai694 votes

Don't worry. It will receive much more upvotes from people who recently lost from a Darius

Ralanr11 votes

It is a really sad day when Darius is the only initator for his team and is succeeding at it.

Great post.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

We goofed big time on initiation tbh.

I always felt that one more Q would kill somebody. Unfortunately that ended with me just close enough for a hook.

l Dárius l2 votes

Yeah. I read that and was wondering why this Darius was the one initiating lol.

Off Meta Evan3 votes

I personally think darius should be changed but for a different reason entirely. i think darius has a kit that is so simple that if he counters you theres not really anything you can do about it. I think his gameplay is EXTREMELY inorganic and makes the game more champion select the video game. if you're a ranged champion you fuck him, if you're not, he (typically) fucks you. if you're a champion like Nasus Maokai Malphite he's gonna grab, auto, W Q you and take away half of your hp and you don't really have any options in your kit to do anything about it. but if you're someone like say Kennen Vayne Gnar you can kit him into oblivion and his kit really doesn't have any options to that. I think thats a poor design style because it focuses less on you misplaying and more on your kit just NOT having any way to combat those types of champions. As far the kiting thing goes tho darius does have the possiblity of being able to just cheese the enemy so he's not completely fucked but still that does fuck all for fighting against him. One of my favorite match ups and something i think is example of good design is Xerath VS Azir where Xerath should have the advantage but because he is literally all skill shots he actually has to play well. where as a champion like Darius is so simple that misplaying him is EXTREMELY difficult.

TheSingularity2 votes

This^^

As irritating as darius is he does have counter-play and there're melee champs that can deal with him. But I don't see why I should have to pick a direct counter to him in order to not feed. Because that's exactly how a darius lane goes: X=DrMundo Gangplank Gnar Graves Illaoi Jayce Karthus Kennen Quinn Ryze Swain Teemo Vayne Vladimir

Y=Aatrox Chogath Garen Gragas Hecarim JarvanIV Jax LeeSin Malphite Maokai Nautilus Olaf Poppy Rumble Shen Shyvana Sion TahmKench Trundle Zac

D=Darius

X+D=survive/thrive Y+D=Feed/fall behind

D+D=/remake

But here's the thing, 13/14 of champion (X) are either ranged or "pretty much" ranged (DrMundo Gangplank). And they don't necessarily roll over the darius. Sure the marksman, ryze, kennen and teemo might. But swain/vlad need to go melee to make use of their kits (darius' sweet spot). Mundo and GP can be zoned. And illaoi is by far the ONLY melee champion who can go toe to toe with darius at nearly any stage of the game.

.

No one, should have to directly counter pick ANY CHAMPION. They should be able to outplay them, like mages vs pre rework assassins (Koz vs zed for example). But instead, it's all up to the darius fucking up on a nearly impossible to fuck up champion.

EcchiOtakuTM2 votes

The real issue is that people still think melee auto lose to darius.

Make sure winion wave isn't greater than 3-5. Don't have 2 stacks on yourself, have jungler gank about 2-3 times. Don't disrespect your disadvantaged darius even if you have 1 or 2 kills on him because tank items are cheap. Boom beat darius ezpz as long as your champ isn't gimped like aatroxx.

People refuse to play a team game or "learn to be carried" then get arrogant or loser mindsets when vs a darius. I know a lot about darius still get fk'd but because I trust my adc with LW i focus on just staying even or ASK for a mid+jng gank.

Honestly darius is a teamwork check who crushes "MEMEME", even vs ranged "disadvantage" if I can keep healthy on darius and patient for that cocky over ext my jng gank rathers that disadvantage mute.

So jng, mid are highly important vs darius' early, ADC late. Regardless of your disadvantage or advantage noone will beat darius unless you can work as a team.

TheSingularity2 votes

One issue with your solution. You assume that the; Jungler will be a suitable pre 6 pick, won't be pre occupied with other lanes and can successfully gank you before you die/fall behind.

That the adc will actually build a lord dominiks and that your team has sufficient peel to keep darius off your adc while dealing with the other 4 members of the enemy team.

Yi is in a similar boat but is way easier to deal with

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Then aim to go even, darius even after 6 is dealable as long as you stay healthy.

TheSingularity1 votes

We can and do aim to go even. But darius is built around NOT! letting that happen. If he doesn't get fed as F off you then you're likely behind in CS big time so he'll beat you either way.

The only way you stay healthy vs darius is if he intentionally feeds, is in a totally fucked up match elo wise or has absolutely no bloody clue.

That is the problem. You can play as well as you like, but if darius doesn't fuck up big time then there's nothing you can do. All about someone fucking up an almost impossible to fuck up champion.

Off Meta Evan1 votes

thats kinda the point i'm trying to make. i want as an individual, to be able to beat darius without being a champion that naturally just shits on him. relaying on my jungler is extremely risky in it of itself because there are too many variables to consider, such as my jungler just not wanting to gank a darius, their jungler counter ganking, my jungler misplaying the situation. Many things that can go wrong. i don't WANT my team to be a crutch i want to feel like as an individual i'm actually doing something and not just letting my team carry the fuck out of me. i go out of my way to play shit like MonkeyKing Kennen Rumble because i want to be a carry for my team BUT i can't really do that with certain champions against darius. Not due to a lack of skill but simply because the champions kit isn't able to DO anything against him and vice versa, darius can be great at his champ all he wants but if i have item 3022 item 3071 on gnar i'm GOING to kite him, you can't outplay an autoattack. champions that have no solution outside of flat out countering them are poorly designed and are toxic gameplay. Yes i get this game is a team game but believe or not the 3 man bot and jg don't give a fuck about how hard my lane is and are NOT coming to help me, thats honestly why i think this season has been one of the worse seasons, cause they tried a bunch of shit to inorganically force teams to work together and reduce individualism, which ISN'T a good thing.

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

That's why you ask, if they can't just focus on going even and freeze lane.

It's actually good to stop individualism, most throws happen because people don't even try to work with their team and get overeager to press a solo-advantage instead of getting an advantage then helping their team get one.

Individualism compared to teamwork just completely removes concepts of strategy since most don't think just going even is good or lack the mind set to let allies carry them. 2 extremely important things lost.

Off Meta Evan2 votes

Well i don't like the strategy aspect of league, i didn't get into league for the strategy i got into it because i enjoyed the idea of mastering champions and getting mechanically better at them. I'm fine with them both being extremely core to win the game but it feels like since season 5 they've tried to reduce the importance of mechanical skill, which doesn't sit well with me, i feel they should be equally as important but thats sadly not the case, a person with piss poor mechanics but good shot calling will go farther than the vice versa of that and i feel thats stupid because being near mechanically perfect is certainly harder than just shot calling, which is just game knowledge. As far as letting your team carry you, i don't WANT to win that way, tbh i would rather lose. The only win that will leave me satisfied is the one where i actually deserved it because i was playing well. Its the same reason i usually try to play underrated champs like Ziggs Xerath Karthus Aatrox because i want to win because i was better without a shadow of a doubt, no bullshit.

13900 Essence1 votes

I feel like mastering a less-in-meta champion is better in its own regard than mastering a currently meta champion. It ensures that unless you are a one-trick twitch.tv streamer (ex. Annie Bot, although he does play other things and doesn't dodge if annie is banned like some), your pick won't get banned and you will most likely be in your comfort zone.

P.S. Hello fellow memelord

Off Meta Evan1 votes

i mean not very meta and just straight up not good are two different things. i feel a champion like Renekton is a good champion tho he's not that meta because melees top in general aren't that good right now and he's based around shitting on melees. He does his job well its just not really needed. where as Ziggs isn't meta because he's just not that good compared to other mages, tho i do agree having a pocket champion that isn't very meta and most likely won't be banned is a great idea. Thats what i did when i started maining kennen.... rip my dreams of him not being banned.

P.S. i like memes as well.

Lord Galvatron3 votes

Ayyyyy an intelligent Gameplay post. +1

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

Tbh the reason I hate this guy is his ability to kill you in your minion wave at lvl 1.

Astôlfo3 votes

To be fair, for him to do that, he needs to get full Hemorrhage stacks (5 autos and/or Qs) to kill you in any one go, as well as most likely an Ignite. Someone playing against Darius really shouldn't be in his auto range, or at least not for 5 consecutive autos. Also, his Q is extremely slow and dodgeable.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

To be fair, for him to do that, he needs to get full Hemorrhage stacks (5 autos and/or Qs) to kill you in any one go, as well as most likely an Ignite. Someone playing against Darius really shouldn't be in his auto range, or at least not for 5 consecutive autos. Also, his Q is extremely slow and dodgeable.

Point is, lvl 1, in my minion wave. He can heavily zone me off experience and gold from the first couple minions.

Plus, Darius will start E most of the time. His passive is just so strong it's better for him to be able to keep your near than to take Q for some more unreliable damage.

While I agree with his Q being slow, it's also pretty big. Well, against immobile tanks. Although I guess that's who Darius counters, so...

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

{quoted}

Point is, lvl 1, in my minion wave. He can heavily zone me off experience and gold from the first couple minions.

Plus, Darius will start E most of the time. His passive is just so strong it's better for him to be able to keep your near than to take Q for some more unreliable damage.

While I agree with his Q being slow, it's also pretty big. Well, against immobile tanks. Although I guess that's who Darius counters, so...

If darius starts E, by god, punish the shit out of him for it.

E start darius sounds like some of the dumbest fucking shit I have ever heard of in all my time as a darius main.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

If darius starts E, by god, punish the shit out of him for it.

E start darius sounds like some of the dumbest fucking shit I have ever heard of in all my time as a darius main.

...His passive is strong enough to make up for it. Especially if you aren't a Fiora or Jayce.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

{quoted}

...His passive is strong enough to make up for it. Especially if you aren't a Fiora or Jayce.

The purpose of a level one cheese is to apply stacks as fast as humanly possible. That is achieved with W and to a lesser extent Q, not E.

Darius 101, keep trying to school me even though you can't even escape bronze.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

The purpose of a level one cheese is to apply stacks as fast as humanly possible. That is achieved with W and to a lesser extent Q, not E.

Darius 101, keep trying to school me even though you can't even escape bronze.

He doesn't need to fully stack them, just get enough stacks to threaten you away from the minions.

Plus anyone who tries to fight him in the beginning will let him get a few stacks while trading. Then you can either fight him in your minions (he wins), or run (and get zoned). If you run, he can E you and get even more damage off. If he takes Q and you are an average dueler, you can probably turn it around while he charges his Q (the handle hit damage is minimal and he can't auto/stack his passive while he charges it).

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

{quoted}

He doesn't need to fully stack them, just get enough stacks to threaten you away from the minions.

Plus anyone who tries to fight him in the beginning will let him get a few stacks while trading. Then you can either fight him in your minions (he wins), or run (and get zoned). If you run, he can E you and get even more damage off. If he takes Q and you are an average dueler, you can probably turn it around while he charges his Q (the handle hit damage is minimal and he can't auto/stack his passive while he charges it).

And if he starts W youre fucked if you arent a jax who started counter strike.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

And if he starts W youre fucked if you arent a jax who started counter strike.

Except no, you can actually run away? Especially if they're dumb and use it instantly? Only reason that is is because (I don't think) it gives him extra range like Nasus and Yorick.

Also a Fiora would kite the hell out of you.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

{quoted}

Except no, you can actually run away? Especially if they're dumb and use it instantly? Only reason that is is because (I don't think) it gives him extra range like Nasus and Yorick.

Also a Fiora would kite the hell out of you.

"run away"

and we get back to your whole gripe in the first place about his level 1 being oppressive because he can zone from the start with kill potential (which is just a flat out lie).

"dumb and use it instantly"

Any darius that uses his W as anything but an AA reset is a tard and needs to continue to learn. Also, it does give him extra range on the AA.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

"run away"

and we get back to your whole gripe in the first place about his level 1 being oppressive because he can zone from the start with kill potential (which is just a flat out lie).

It's happened to me (I was using a weak early duelist :/, had to blow flash). He started Q that time, if he had E he coulda grabbed me.

Plus E gives him an actual threat range.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

{quoted}

It's happened to me (I was using a weak early duelist :/, had to blow flash). He started Q that time, if he had E he coulda grabbed me.

Plus E gives him an actual threat range.

W gives him better kill potential because he can instantly 2 stack you and get behind you while you're slowed. E sucks because you can flash out of it and he can't do much about it. With a W start he can flash towards you while you're slowed to keep smacking you. His E has an animation time where if you flash out of it that's the end of the engagement period and if he tries to flash after you he'll just waste his own flash and get nothing out of it. The 20+ second cd on his E is very unforgiving.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

W gives him better kill potential because he can instantly 2 stack you and get behind you while you're slowed. E sucks because you can flash out of it and he can't do much about it. With a W start he can flash towards you while you're slowed to keep smacking you. His E has an animation time where if you flash out of it that's the end of the engagement period and if he tries to flash after you he'll just waste his own flash and get nothing out of it. The 20+ second cd on his E is very unforgiving.

I think I'd like to trade a 20+ second cd for a flash :P

If they don't flash it, they're dead. Also, he can E to stop dashes.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

{quoted}

I think I'd like to trade a 20+ second cd for a flash :P

If they don't flash it, they're dead. Also, he can E to stop dashes.

I think I'd like to kill the enemy by starting W and flashing after them :P

Bronzie, there is no need to inform me on Darius's abilies, I know everything about them to their very core.

ArcanisLanxe1 votes

Darius should start with Q.

l Dárius l2 votes

YES I SALUTE YOU

Stephenizgod2 votes

Good post and truthful, but Darius does need to be changed. He bullies too many champions too easily for how simple his kit is. There are really only a few very viable champions that can deal with him and transition into late game. As for kiting Darius, this is and probably always will be the most effective way of dealing with him. It is simple and should be automatic when against any Juggernaut. However when Darius gets ahead (which he usually does or he is almost completely useless) it can become less like kiting and more like being hardcore zoned. That is because a single mistake made by a teammate can cost the whole teams lives if he gets a good dunkathon going.

So while I don't think Darius is too strong in the sense that his numbers are out of whack, I do think he is too strong in his specific job because of how simple his kit works. His kit just works too well with itself, which leaves him with a ton of strengths and only a few weaknesses (all of which are shared by the other Juggernauts to a degree). He isn't like Garen who is struggling right now to be a Juggernaut because, like Darius, he suffers from being kited, but unlike Darius he doesn't have the right tools to accomplish his goals anymore. He also has trouble bullying his lane opponent like he is supposed to and his ability to "assassinate" people like the Villain mechanic promotes doesn't really mesh well with his kit.

homerthefatso2 votes

Coming from a Darius main I couldn't agree more. Also he's a free meal for enemy junglers early game, especially if the enemy top has some sort of cc.

Huebone2 votes

Nothing is more scary than trying to kite a Darius who gets summoner 4 summoner 6 and runs stormraider with item 3009 item 3044 as his first buys, especially if you're Gnar without icy mallet lmao. But yeah, Darius isn't overpowered, he's never weak either, he's consistently strong throughout the game, he has innate debuffs that help him and his team, I wish more top laners were like him, useful to the team without being a complete monster later on, nor impossible to deal with in lane,because top lane is the ultimate rock paper scissors of league, and top laners either become great teamfighters(sometimes good in lane)Illaoi Malphite PoppyKledMaokaiKennen , or become annoying splitpushersDrMundo Yorick Jax Tryndamere Nasus , sometimes both to a lesser degreeGnar Kayle Gangplank Irelia ... then the bulliesDarius Renekton Riven Pantheon and the jacks of all trades Yasuo Jayce Trundle

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

{quoted}

Nothing is more scary than trying to kite a Darius who gets summoner 4 summoner 6 and runs stormraider with item 3009 item 3044 as his first buys, especially if you're Gnar without icy mallet lmao. But yeah, Darius isn't overpowered, he's never weak either, he's consistently strong throughout the game, he has innate debuffs that help him and his team, I wish more top laners were like him, useful to the team without being a complete monster later on, nor impossible to deal with in lane,because top lane is the ultimate rock paper scissors of league, and top laners either become great teamfighters(sometimes good in lane)Illaoi Malphite PoppyKledMaokaiKennen , or become annoying splitpushersDrMundo Yorick Jax Tryndamere Nasus , sometimes both to a lesser degreeGnar Kayle Gangplank Irelia ... then the bulliesDarius Renekton Riven Pantheon and the jacks of all trades Yasuo Jayce Trundle

I despise swifties on darius, he needs the tank.

WoonStruck1 votes

Darius AND Illaoi both need nerfs to their laning.

Every melee champ, including Illaoi and Darius, then needs buffs to their base stats.

Darius and Illaoi are problems due to their laning interactions, and the extreme passive pressure they exert during laning, without actively doing anything.

Post-laning for them might even be too weak when not absurdly far ahead. Currently its based around their auto-snowball when they play properly, similar to Renekton back when Riot thought the "Renekton Bar" was a thing.

Cowseed1 votes

Passive pressure? Are you high?

WoonStruck2 votes

No, apparently you don't know the meaning of passive pressure.

Passive pressure includes abilities like morg snare, thresh hook, blitz hook, etc. Abilities with high pay-out that the user doesn't necessarily have to show that they're skilled in order for it to be seen as a high threat.

During laning, both Darius and Illaoi have this.

Darius due to passive+E, and how you almost automatically lose as a melee if he gets 5 stacks of his passive, which is extremely easy if you land E, which isn't hard to hit.

Illaoi has her E; you're supposed to hit her in order to reduce its effect, but doing so allows her to just W both you and the spirit, giving her massive sustain, allowing her to win trades vs melees almost automatically if the Illaoi isn't horrible.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

Passive pressure is hilarious at times.

I played a game as Brand support a few weeks ago and and I managed to poke down and kill the enemy ADC at level 2 after stunning them.

After that, the enemy ADC and support just backed away whenever I approached. I didn't even have to bother using abilities since my mere presence meant that they were denying themselves CS.

The funniest part about it is that I was playing while tired. If I had to keep using my abilities to harass them or fight, I stood a good chance of outright missing them.

Wolfess1 votes

darius is hardly weak to kiting

he almost always builds item 3742 to boost his speed, and item 3071 which boosts move speed on physical damage, not just on auto/on-hit. If he pulls you in, it's very likely that you will die if you do not have a foolproof escape plan like a hard disengage or juke, and god forbig he builds a youmuus for the active speed.

I strongly dislike juggernauts and what they do. One damage item is about all they need in order to put out high damage due to their abilities scaling so effectively with it, and the rest they just go tanky so they can deal the damage AND take it. not to mention the completely un-thematical heal on his Q. It just makes absolutely no sense

Sad Tyrant1 votes

Thats why i build Full AD Garen, the heal kinda necessary (< - fuck this word, never can spell it right) but should only applied when hitting multiple champs rewarding him for doing right, I agree about him being unkitable unless you are Vayne or Lucian

AgeOfTheMage1 votes

darius will always win lvl 1 1v1s if no one backs off :I

Tychusfindlay9192 votes

{quoted}

darius will always win lvl 1 1v1s if no one backs off :I

Olaf debatable

Requiemsfire1 votes

Pantheon

Sad Tyrant1 votes

Pantheon is all about backing off after poke until he can all in

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