So if the price of 
Health Pots is going up, how will Junglers manage their first clear? You would only be able to afford 1 pot after your 
Hunter's Machete, and some Champs need that extra potion. If I'm understanding this right, any Jungler without good early sustain or good clear cough 
cough will be nerfed hardcore. They already made early jungling harder this season, now next season it'll be even harder?
RiotMeddler85 votesJunglers will have a few options. Starting gold's 500, Hunter's Machete costs 350g (as does Hunter's Talisman, an alternate jungle starting item that gives mana and health regen instead of damage on hit and lifesteal). That then leaves 150g which is enough for either 3 health pots or the new mini flask. That's got 2 charges, each of which restores 100 health, at a cost of 150g. It upgrades (combine cost 250g) into a bigger refillable potion called Hunter's Potion, that holds 5 charges of 60 health/35 mana and gains a charge whenever you kill a large jungle monster.
Garlyle Wilds21 votesRecharging potion when you kill jungle monsters
SIGN ME UP
Melledoneus43 votesinb4 
never backs. Ever.
HighH15 votesInb4 better than Innervating Locket Udyr and he dominates jungle again
Gorgannan3 votesAgain? He just barely got nerfed out of the trifecta with the Sated nerfs.
Melledoneus17 votesAt least this way, he fits the lore as an independent wild man. Who needs magical fountains, anyway?
Ariel the Cruel4 votes
already never backs.
Bouncemaster Zac3 votesinb4
Not like that happened every time a sustain-focused jungle item came out.
revliledpembroke1 votesWonder how 
might feel in the jungle with the recharging potions.
TurquoiseYoshi11 votesWHOA DAMN TOO MUCH INFO TOO MUCH INFO!
Cuix4 votesWith mana potions going out, better (counter)engage options for tanks/juggernauts, wider-spread wards, and the Runeglaive replacement... what on earth is Fiddlesticks supposed to do?
Gorgannan1 votesTake blue?
I mean, I barely see Fid buy blue pots.
Cuix7 votesFiddle being totally reliant on blue buff means he's unplayable after a certain level, because he isn't the best jungle duelist and will just get it stolen. It also means he can only jungle when his mid laner doesn't need blue. That's incredibly binary.
Gorgannan1 votesYou're acting like that we should keep that from happening, but it already has. Hey, don't blame me, it's Riot's doing, but mana pots DON'T help him there. He's a dumpstered champ in that he has one strategy that works for him. I wouldn't expect to see him too much in pro play until they put in some massive changes for him.
Cuix6 votesUh, chill out? I never blamed you lmao. Riot specifically mentioned him when they made the Runeglaive changes, and I think they should follow-up on an obvious problem. As for pro play... well, duh? Worlds is ending soon, and LCS won't start until spring, sooo... of course he won't see play. He saw play just a year ago, though, as a real support pick, without needing "massive changes".
Gorgannan3 votes"Fiddle being totally reliant on blue buff means he's unplayable after a certain level... That's incredibly binary." + the downvote sound like you're grudging me the fact that he can't operate without blue. I'm not saying he shouldn't, but mana pots DON'T have what he needs. That's what these new changes will hopefully address. Also, I was assuming we were talking about jungle fid, as support Fid was a gimmick and doesn't operate the same way as jungle Fid.
Cuix4 votesOh, lord no. The downvote was because you just kinda randomly wandered in and left a super dismissive reply to a real concern. I really don't like when folks join a discussion exclusively to imply that it doesn't matter.
Support Fid might've been started as a gimmick, but point-and-click fear + silence is totally solid. I do usually talk about jungle/mid Fid, though, since that's what I've played since S1.
Silents4292 votes
needs a rework, let's not balance the entire jungle and jungle itemization around 1 champion.
Cuix3 votesNobody's saying to balance the jungle around him lmao, calm down. I'm just asking if he's been considered, and what Riot feels about him or plans to do about him. What's wrong with having some discussion?
Transgressor3 votesEverything.
You are not permitted to have a different opinion, more less disagree with what I have to say, for I am the center of the world, and the world revolves around me. If you do not partake in the circlejerk, you shall be hastely downvoted and cursed at, and your arguments will be reduced to smitherineens because the straw man fallacy is 2stronkInme.
-Clarification: this is sarcasm, for those who have trouble discerning it through text-
T RexHasTinyArms2 votesPlay support? Maybe go hang out w/ 
? That dude needs a friend, Rito's just trying to help him out by sending his way.
Xyren51 votesJunglers will have a few options. Starting gold's 500, Hunter's Machete costs 350g (as does Hunter's Talisman, an alternate jungle starting item that gives mana and health regen instead of damage on hit and lifesteal). That then leaves 150g which is enough for either 3 health pots or the new mini flask. That's got 2 charges, each of which restores 100 health, at a cost of 150g. It upgrades (combine cost 250g) into a bigger refillable potion called Hunter's Potion, that holds 5 charges of 60 health/35 mana and gains a charge whenever you kill a large jungle monster.
What about Poacher's Knife? You guys said you had plans for it, will we see it this preseason?
DeynaTaggerung7 votesI'm pretty sure they said they're taking it out entirely
RiotMeddler12 votesThat's correct.
Blue Moon Wolf3 votesR.I.P. 
never again will you tick me off when the enemy keeps stealing monsters, never again will my jungle keep getting killed trying to invade the enemy jungle... you know what, this is probably for the best .__.
maikokk10 votesRIP
never again will you tick me off when my teams jungler is stupid enough to buy this item because riot put it in a champions recommended list
T RexHasTinyArms2 votesPlus the replacement actually looks like a pretty good option. Especially for invading and taking red trinket over yellow.
maikokk2 votesinb4 "why arnt you being the ward bitch" s6 jungle meta
T RexHasTinyArms1 votesEh, I like it. On champs you want to go red trinket it lets you still have wards, and if you don't want to build it bc you want to target the enemy champ w/ smite or need sustain, then just upgrade yellow trinket, np.
maikokk1 votesi like it too, dont get me wrong. but early game having no trink ups or sightones on your support... you will be the most convenient role to take charge of warding... especially since supports cant just buy wards. it doesnt seem like it will be much of an option if your team is concerned about vision. you upgrade to that jungle item or most of the map is fog of war
Partholonian1 votesi like it too, dont get me wrong. but early game having no trink ups or sightones on your support... you will be the most convenient role to take charge of warding... especially since supports cant just buy wards. it doesnt seem like it will be much of an option if your team is concerned about vision. you upgrade to that jungle item or most of the map is fog of war
It costs about the same as sightstone once you take into account that the support doesn't start with an item that builds into sightstone, but does start with an item that gives them bonus gold. But the support probably can't back as soon as they hit 800 because they're needed in lane.
MetalGearTeemu2 votesMy your Jungle is MY JUNGLE nunu invasions will never be the same....
guess I'll just have to go red like every other jungler.
Sincarnation2 votesJunglers will have a few options. Starting gold's 500, Hunter's Machete costs 350g (as does Hunter's Talisman, an alternate jungle starting item that gives mana and health regen instead of damage on hit and lifesteal). That then leaves 150g which is enough for either 3 health pots or the new mini flask. That's got 2 charges, each of which restores 100 health, at a cost of 150g. It upgrades (combine cost 250g) into a bigger refillable potion called Hunter's Potion, that holds 5 charges of 60 health/35 mana and gains a charge whenever you kill a large jungle monster.
Can you guys please post the changes somewhere? Its really frustrating to keep hearing things referenced but having no idea what they mean or do
Gorgannan3 votesThey're not on the PBE yet, which means it's STILL extremely iterative. Once it's on the PBE, it's a little more solid, and actually worth mentioning.
Lüx Main2 votesAh, that is indeed a relief! Thank you for answering! I'm very interested about this mini crystalline flask and hunters potion. :)
SKOBODO2 votesJunglers will have a few options. Starting gold's 500, Hunter's Machete costs 350g (as does Hunter's Talisman, an alternate jungle starting item that gives mana and health regen instead of damage on hit and lifesteal). That then leaves 150g which is enough for either 3 health pots or the new mini flask. That's got 2 charges, each of which restores 100 health, at a cost of 150g. It upgrades (combine cost 250g) into a bigger refillable potion called Hunter's Potion, that holds 5 charges of 60 health/35 mana and gains a charge whenever you kill a large jungle monster.
Have you (Riot) considered how these changes will affect Twisted Treeline (and Dominion)?
Mimy33 votesI guess this is why kindred was given god like sustain
Lazypeon1006 votesThis is probably not it honestly. Adcs have never been great junglers due to their lack of sustain, slow clear time early, and lack of gank potential. The only adc that could really jungle before kindred was Twitch, and that was before his (first) rework.
I think the sustain was given to kindred to help ensure they would actually be used in the jungle.
Mimy11 votesBut you cannot deny with the new changes coming up riot probably didn't implement that much sustain just for jungle? Well yes ust for jungle... but.. that they perhaps knew the changes coming and were like "Well with the new changes coming she's gonna need good sustain or the jungle will be harsh on her when we change it, better to make her a little strong now then to buff her later"
Lazypeon1001 votesThe comments made by meddler and the other reds seem to go against that actually. They are toning down early jungle damage while also still making it so you can afford more health potions than before.
The way Kindred is designed with their marking and sustain is supposed to reinforce the idea that they are supposed to be a jungle champion. They may have the changes in mind, but I don't think the sustain was put there strictly because of the preseason changes.
Also, to those talking about other adc jungles (twitch and quinn respectively), yes you can still jungle them. I have before, it can be fun. I've even done well as them. That doesn't mean they are designed to jungle, nor are they really good at it. Take Twitch. Yes he can gank. But his sustain in the jungle is awful, and his clear time is dreadfully slow. Anyone who can jungle half way decently will see a twitch, and know to just counter jungle him. He has no dueling power (especially early in that first jungle clear!) abd he has no escapes.
The way you need to look at it is this. Yes I can pick this champion for X role. By what about them makes me want to play them there instead of just using Y champion who can do the same things but better? It's why malzihar ad might be a thing in normals, but you will almost never see it in ranked. Same goes for a lot of the other off the cuff roles.
Mimy2 votesI guess... Thank you for the info. :)
Jungle Lux God28 votesI feel like we haven't seen the whole picture of what the Preseason will bring.
Health pots are going up, but if starting options are getting their cost reduced then Machete might be on that list because it's the only starting option for junglers. Xypherous mentioned on Reddit that jungle monsters were getting their early damage nerfed due to a combination of starting item changes and defensive masteries getting changes.
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3ql575/preseason_2016_crests_the_horizon/cwgaqux
Squarefighter23 votesShhhh, just pick up a pitchfork and go with it!
RamboDash159 votesWell, champs with high sustain can work, such as 
or , all you'll need is some 
.......
wait
Silents4297 votesIf you are chugging mana potions on Warwick you are doing something wrong.
Jet Sett6 votesWait, what about squishy mages mid? How am I gonna hold up against 
If they can outpoke me and I can barely start with any pots? Not trying to complain, just want more info on how this affects laners, especially the squishies who might need them.
C9 Scott Free 7 votesIf you are getting outpoked by Diana then lol
DeynaTaggerung4 votesFizz, talon, akali, diana, ekko, and yasuo shouldn't be outpoking you. Out-trading you well that's a whole nother issue but if you're a ranged mage you should be abusing your range as much as possible while staying back so they have to blow a lot just getting into range. I think you meant the other way around, how are the melee mids sustain against the ranged mage mids >.>
That aside I believe they mentioned they're adding a new sustain item that holds charges similar to 
but stronger. So likely you'll just have to go that as a start instead of a more offensive item, which seems only fair because getting to go dorans at the beginning is too much like getting your cake and eating it too.
Kynami2 votesCorrupting Potion (500g): Restores 150 hp and 50 mana over 12 seconds and grants your spells a small DoT burn for the duration (3 charges, refills at fountain)
Looks to me like the new "upgraded" lane flask is entirely in place of having any regular health pots given the new start gold is 500, and is significantly worse for having mana sustain. Because between all three charges that is 150 MP and also burns health restoration making it only worth using to recover health at the same time. Not to mention wasting the burn procs if you aren't using it actively in a trade...
Vermonster2 votesSo what you're saying is if I want to play a ranged mage mid all I have to do is buy an item that gives me absolutely 0 end game or mid game advantage, 0 damage buffs for farming or making my harass even worth spending the mana in the first place, and I can get a whole 150 mana from their new charge item!!!
OH YIPPEE! and whats that? Zed and Yas are still going to pick offensive items to harass me off my farm completely and likely poke me back to base several times in laning phase while I build 
because my champ is no longer viable without it? Now THIS sounds like some quality changes to mid lane. Can't wait to lose lane in the first 5 minutes of every game if I pick a champ that needs mana 
