Now that Riot have classed Skarner as a 'Diver'

Neclord·May 24, 2017·37 votes·1,208 views

Think we can revert his gimmicky JUGGERNAUT rework that shoehorned dominion into a reasonable champion?

42 Comments

snibedi snabMay 25, 20176 votes

Expecting Riot to make a good decision and not fuck it up horribly is like holding a bag of acid above your face and expecting it to not eat through and melt your head off.

crippler38May 25, 20171 votes

Hydrochloric acid doesn't eat through plastic right?

BrascusMay 25, 20171 votes

Does it matter when the bag is metaphorical but the acid is real

crippler38May 25, 20174 votes

I'd be more curious about how I put real acid in a metaphorical bag, or held it over my head without a container.

SpoofghoulMay 25, 20171 votes

except it's Fluoroantimonic acid and ate through the bag, your face, your body, the concrete and 50 feet of ground anyway

Big LincolnMay 25, 20175 votes

skarner will always be a juggernaut

SpecterVonBarenMay 25, 20172 votes

Um... why? He wasn't a juggernaut before the rework and he's not a good juggernaut now since his base stats are terrible.

Variks the LoyalMay 25, 20172 votes

He always had the 'Juggernaut' playstyle - be very tanky, deal a lot of damage up close, and the counterplay is to kite.

SpecterVonBarenMay 25, 20174 votes

He wasn't slow before the rework, had three forms of CC, and was most well known for his ability to stick on a target. He's always been a diving fighter like Hecarim.

Variks the LoyalMay 25, 20173 votes

I'm not saying he was slow. Udyr isn't slow. Volibear isn't slow.

But he was kitable. His movement was based on manual speed, not blinks or dashes or dives, which are characteristic of Divers.

SpecterVonBarenMay 25, 20172 votes

Lot's of champions have movement based on that though, that alone does not make him a juggernaut.

Variks the LoyalMay 25, 20172 votes

That is actually one of the defining features of a Juggernaut - being easily kitable. Which Skarner is; his engagement on an enemy isn't based on diving onto them swiftly, but landing a slow skillshot to slow them so he can catch up (It's been this way ever since his first rework).

SpecterVonBarenMay 25, 20172 votes

Just being easily kitable does not make you a juggernaut by itself. And what about his CC lock down? His ult alone disqualifies him from being a juggernaut due to how much it's based on having allies with him since he can't auto attack while he has an enemy suppressed, Juggernauts are designed to be selfish damage dealers low utility.

Variks the LoyalMay 25, 20172 votes

And what if he could AA people he suppressed?

Sounds like a good buff to me, and helps him actually take advantage of being Crystal Charged while suppressing someone.

ShahamutMay 25, 20171 votes

You are at it in another thread? Skarner is not a juggernaut. I'd agree he isn't a Diver though as he has no way to bypass a frontline.

He's a variant of a melee skirmisher. Because he doesn't have dashes or blinks, he is a bit tankier, but not like an Illaoi, or Darius, or Volibear. Not even close.

Sun Wu RyuumokuMay 25, 20171 votes

In your heart maybe

hhaavviikkMay 25, 20173 votes

how is he a diver? only thing he can do is walk slightly faster towards the enemy, I wouldn't exactly call that diving

TheSingularityMay 26, 20171 votes

Idk. He's more of a vanguard which is what he was classified as post rework. Mby it's a tease as to what riot want him to be. Which I strongly don't like as a concept

RewtMay 25, 20172 votes

Skarner is actually pretty decent right now. While not top tier by any means he does fit into the game ok. He needs a bit more tuning but he is close.

NeclordMay 25, 20172 votes

There were some good changes (E proccing a stun springs to mind), but the gimmicky control zones just make him rather odd to handle and inconsistent early on.

The passive just needs to be redone. I really don't know what they were thinking when they added it.

KarakotMay 26, 20171 votes

It's a really cool idea for a passive but I just don't like it on skarner. I'd be all for revisiting it on another champ

SpecterVonBarenMay 25, 20173 votes

Close to what? Even if he had a 50% winrate it wouldn't make his current kit good.

RewtMay 25, 20171 votes

He has a stun. A good AOE clear for raptors. A speed Boost and a slow. and then he has his ult. Its a good kit. It could just use some fine tuning

SpecterVonBarenMay 25, 20174 votes

You just listed what he has in his kit, that says absolutely nothing, nothing in that makes him worth picking over anyone else. Pick Hecarim and you get a very similar champ that outclasses Skarner in every way and also doesn't need to be next to one of six rock crutches to get the most of his kit.

The only thing he offers that's unique is his ult, and guess what? Riot reworked him in the Juggernaut patch because they felt his kit was too generic aside from his ult, which is the same problem he has now.

TheSingularityMay 25, 20171 votes

Naut has a snare, good aoe clear for raptors, a gap closer instead of a speed boost and a slow. Xin zhao, vi, zac, sej and ww also similar.

It doesn't matter if he has lot's of tools if they all suck. His q is mindless spam. His w is meh. His e is 2 in 1. Counting it as 2 separate cc spells is foolish. You either get both or you don't. His ult only exists because it's the only thing he has that says "that's skarner".

The issue with skarner isn't about the tools he doesn't have, it's the stupid tool that is the crystal dildos that are his passive. He can't function in lane, and his mini game is uninteractive and dull as a stat stick that hogs a massive part of his power budget.

His kit is essentially the same as pre rework aside from the spires. Just jumbled around.

SpecterVonBarenMay 25, 20171 votes

I especially hate the mana regen they give him now because ever since Hunter's Talisman was introduced the mana regen he gets from his spires is superfluous yet it's still there taking up some of his power budget.

TheSingularityMay 25, 20171 votes

Personally I much prefered him with crystal venom as his passive. Such a better use of his power budget than spires and mana (we have blue buff like wtf)

I think I played the version of him prior to that one once, but was too new to remember XD

SpecterVonBarenMay 25, 20171 votes

Oh I do too, I do too, I loved Crystal Venom Skarner, the passive was so satisfying.

RewtMay 25, 20171 votes

And the only reason Naut isnt good is because his damage is too single target and you need aoe to clear the jungle nowdays. all he has for AOE is his E which is on too long of a cooldown to be reliable against them and it costs too much mana.

Xin Zhao is bad because his kit is too simple to allow for crazy shit. he is feast or famine.

Vi is good. She is A tier in the jungle. Sure not S, but she is damn close.

Zac is actually not bad. still B tier

Sej is pretty god mode for a tank right now. Definately an A tier jungler and an S tier among tank junglers.

ww is very strong actually. Trying to say that he is bad is just straight up false. he definitely an A tier jungler.

Skarner is a high B tier jungler. He just needs small tweaks and he can be an A easy. Skarner is one of the few junglers that can actually start raptors. His ganks can be pretty good thanks to his speed boost + slow + stun. While not as good as the Hardcore meta junglers right now he is still a decent pick to play.

TheSingularityMay 26, 20171 votes

Nauts W is his bread and butter AOE spell for jg. This issue is it pops too dam quick against buff monsters and due to the little monsters being removed from buff camps, you heal for less if you get talisman.

As for the others, it wasn't about who was god tier and who wasn't. I was using them to reinforce the stupidity of blabbing out kit components and using that to justify his stance.

Many champions have just as many tools as skarner if not more. But using that very statement for example, doesn't justify a balance opinion.

As for tweaks. He needs a revert or a rework. His spires were a new thing riot decided to test on skarner. And to be frank they just don't work. The difference between his strength with and without them is absolutely huge. It's what prevents lane skarner and turns him into an ult bot. Cos without those spires, he's almost nothing (almost).

RewtMay 26, 20171 votes

actually saying what a kit has is a very good way to look at something. Lets look at a champ that is pretty shit in most aspects. Master Yi. Has a Q for damage. Has a W healing spell that immobilizes him and he has essentially a second passive on his E and his ult just makes him run fast. Its not a great kit. It shows that he doesnt have CC and is very single target.

Now we compare this to skarner which ive already listed off. He has the tools to be a top tier jungler. Its just that he needs tweaks. Sure the Spires arent a great idea, but They just need to tweak him so that he has most power outside the spires but the spires still give a good enough boost that you want to control them. Also Lane Skarner is not on the discussion. Skarner is and never was designed for laning. So trying to bring lane skarner into the discussion is just irrelevant.

TheSingularityMay 26, 20171 votes

Yi was a poor example as he's intentionally kept weak because of his kit. And you framed it in a negative light. If you're going to describe a kit at least be honest and include everything.

He in fact has: a double hit passive that resets his Q CD and applies onhit, a Q that provides multi target dmg and makes him invulnerable, a heal that does indeed immobilize him, a true damage steroid that synergises with his passive and an ult that makes him immune to anything with the word slow in it while speeding him up.

Sounds alright to me for what he's meant to do. He's simply kept weak because of how easy his kit is to exploit when strong.

"The most power outside the spires" so wth is the point of them even being there at this point? He's strong af without them and would be as strong as fiora when they're around?

Skarner was originally designed to simply function. He wasn't designed as a jungler like kindred was. He simply adopted that position as that's where he worked and that is where he stayed.

RewtMay 26, 20171 votes

I made a typo I meant to say

"They just need to tweak him so that he has MORE power outside the spires but the spires give a good enough boost that you want to control them"

Now this would mean that Outside of the spires he would be decently strong like any other champ, but he wouldnt be able to 1v1 things like Rengar or Nidalee outside of them. When in them he would be able to go toe to toe with a Rengar (but not completely stomp the Rengar, just go toe to toe).

What Im more proposing for him is that we bump the W movespeed from 0/4/8/12/16% to 8/12/16/20/24% giving him more chase potential

Bump the Q damage from just being a % of his AD to having an actual Base damage of something like 30/45/60/75/90 (This puts it around the same power of Hecarim Q)

Bump the E from getting to 50% slow at rank 5 to 45% slow at all ranks with 10 second cooldown at all ranks

These changes give him a bit more to his early game so that he can keep up in the current meta of fast paced junglers. Probably keep the passive the same. This all together should put him around Hecarim Tier without Riot trying to rework him again which we all know will end up with him being broken as shit for 2 weeks then nerfed to a worse point than he is now.

TheSingularityMay 26, 20171 votes

I would very much welcome those changes.

However his spires would need to be hit as his clear is deceptively healthy. Directly buffing his numbers would turn him into shyvana with CC.

While this would make him strong without reworking him. I'll stick with my stance that the spires need to go. Not immediately. But all they do is eat his power budget, crush his objective control and make him very hard to balance (his spires basically have to be weak enough that not taking them as the enemy doesn't cost you the game)

While pre juggernaut skarner was not perfect. His kit was easier to balance and personally, I prefered having at least one decision to make (stun them or get bonus dmg on ult). He was like naut but with a far more amusing ultimate.

A rework would obviously be difficult. I know cos I've tried and every time it ends up the same "crystal venom skarner is better"

ProfirixMay 25, 20172 votes

I feel like divers need actual tank stats early game or a gap close of some kind... Skarner's early game is attrocious.

SpecterVonBarenMay 25, 20172 votes

All because of his stupid passive. Before the Juggernaut patch he had those stats in his base kit so he could actually do something against people.

Variks the LoyalMay 25, 20172 votes

Diver is just as bad of a classification for Skarner as Vanguard was.

Skarner is a Juggernaut. He always was a Juggernaut. He always had the Juggernaut playstyle.

They also changed Olaf to a Diver. That's about as good as calling Skarner one.

Doctor JarvisMay 25, 20172 votes

I don't know why you're getting down voted, you're right. His play style has always been "Im gonna walk menacingly up to you and kill you. Im not going to dash. Im not going to blink. Im going to walk." Just because he's walking toward the backline (the diver's targets) doesn't make him a diver.

Variks the LoyalMay 26, 20171 votes

I know exactly why people are downvoting me.

Because 'I believe Skarner was always a Juggernaut' is apparently synonymous with 'I think this rework is fine and nothing about Skarner should change.'

WyrmbladeMay 25, 20171 votes

I unironically like having a mini-dominion. Since he's a diver now he should totally have some sort of dash with his rework though.

WinTheWarOnPantsMay 25, 20171 votes

Now that Anivia isn't a burst mage, can we make her not one shot with a frost E? and now that Lissandra is a burst mage, can we give her burst? That list is kinda a joke tbh.