We thought the junglers with instant gapclosers were too reliable

ArithianFlame·Feb 14, 2015·122 votes·5,038 views

So we nerfed the range on smite so they can't slow you when they're already on top of you beating your face into a bloody smear.

-Riot Balance Team

This made my night. This logic is so backwards it makes my head hurt trying to figure out how it made any sense at all. You're telling me that the junglers that only have to land a skill shot (or hop to a ward/standard), to literally appear on top of you, are going to be at all affected by reducing smite's range.

The ONLY junglers that this at all affects are the ones WITHOUT ANY GAPCLOSERS. Chilling smite is icing on the cake for lee sin, vi, amumu, and jarvan. For champions like Udyr, Hecarim (ult aside), shyvanna and skarner, the ones with without instant gapclosers, this ult further renders them as nonviable junglers in today's League of Mobility. Make it even more difficult for them to stick to a target.

91 Comments

OrangesilkFeb 14, 201530 votes

Cho'gath needed the range on chilling smite to slow down champions to land his Q, that's the kind of junglers rito is hurting here, the extremely immobile ones who rely on the range and slow of chilling smite to gank you.

Meanwhile, the strong junglers, you know, the junglers that were plenty strong before the jungle rework, they are left untouched, they have the tools to gank and be relevant without chilling smite.

RetillinFeb 14, 201510 votes

I'm just shocked that you had two down votes on something that is 100% accurate and thought out...

KingsgraveFeb 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I'm just shocked that you had two down votes on something that is 100% accurate and thought out...

Welcome to the internet.

straight4freeFeb 14, 201520 votes

They don't want junglers to be as strong as they are, as the single most important champion in the game until late when the ADC takes over.

The problem is they will be so long as ... ahem... the good junglers have their kits.

DyonasFeb 14, 20159 votes

Am I the only one that sees all Riot's balance attempts as, "This is just the first step!" which just keeps hurting those champions in need most while just slowing those on top a tiny bit? How many times can one team fail to grip the major issues and continually make everyone except the problematic champions suffer? Pre-season is supposed to be about big changes and while we got massive jungle changes we got pretty much zero change on the top junglers except the addition of Rek'Sai to the list of champions you're unlikely to run from. So much for going for really big experimental stuff this pre-season hey?

Esdeath DesuFeb 14, 20159 votes

So they aren't buffing weaker junglers, or nerfing stronger junglers, but just nerfing all junglers as a whole? That makes sense. Because instant gapcloser junglers will so be on par with the weaker ones now. It's not like the range on smite will effect the weaker junglers at all. Nope. :)

FauxfireFeb 14, 20158 votes

Is that what was really said in context to the smite range nerf?

ArithianFlameFeb 14, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nate the Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=E0204tXT,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-02-14T07:36:06.061+0000)

Is that what was really said in context to the smite range nerf?

Meddler:

"One of the reasons behind that change is the belief that Chilling Smite is making skillshot/free targeted offensive dash junglers (such as Lee Sin, Jarvan, Amumu etc), more reliable in early ganks than they should be."

PartholonianFeb 14, 201510 votes

As in, they chilling smite FIRST and THEN land their skillshot that should be dodgeable but isn't because of the smite slow.

That's why the range nerf.

If Udyr or anyone else needs a buff, fine, but adding a long range slow to kits that are designed not to have one causes serious problems, especially for people who rely on long range skillshots, like LeeSin . They should be able to miss, and with chilling smite, they didn't.

DarkenedSoul420Feb 14, 20159 votes

The problem is that they aren't buffing the less effective junglers and they really aren't directly nerfing the dominant ones.

maikokkFeb 14, 20151 votes

but they ARE buffing the less effective junglers. Evelynn Hecarim Sejuani Shyvana Nautilus Elise all had increases to their sustain, team fight potential and/or clearing ability in the last few patches, and more are sure to come

Kobila2000Feb 14, 20158 votes

Yeah, in some 6 months perhaps.

PartholonianFeb 14, 20155 votes

It's the fourth week of the season, could you possibly be any more impatient?

LeeDarkFeb 14, 20158 votes

Preseason was 4 months long, and the beginning of the season has only shown that we were right from the start about the new jungle. The LCS is showing that you can only have consistent success on one of four junglers. You say it is only one month into the new season; I say we are THREE PATCHES into the new season, with no real help for the lesser junglers, and no nerfs to the ridiculously strong ones--the same ridiculously strong ones that have been ridiculously strong for MULTIPLE SEASONS.

AnruiFeb 15, 20151 votes

That blind guy has been on top for years...I'm starting to think Riot are the real blind ones here.

(but seriously they are just counting their money from #LCSBigPlays and laughing at us)

LeeDarkFeb 14, 20155 votes

Those junglers Meddler mentioned are reliable in early ganks BECAUSE OF THEIR KITS, not because of chilling Smite. That's why Lee Sin, Jarvan, and Vi have stayed at the top of the jungle pool for multiple seasons. People got tired of seeing Lee Sin in the LCS games LONG before Chilling Smite was ever introduced.

But what happens when a different Smite item made another jungler viable? They nerfed not only the Smite item, but the champion, too. Warwick got no such soft treatment, step by step hitting him until he was no longer viable. He took a huge nerf to the item he preferred, AND a nerf to his early clear speed.

So Chilling Smite maybe needs a nerf; I'll grant that. So does Lee Sin. So does Jarvan. Where are their direct nerfs, similar to what Warwick went through?

IlyaK1986Feb 15, 20153 votes

Jarvan had his nerfs a while back to Q's knockup radius. Vi had a massive CD nerf on assault and battery a long time ago as well.

disregardableFeb 14, 20156 votes

Good, maybe people will go back to buying the far superior item 3726

Leti the YetiFeb 14, 20155 votes

I c why you're the afk farmer

zock3yFeb 14, 20153 votes

I do tend to buy the item 3713 on Lee or Jarvan simply because, as someone already mentioned chilling smite is just icing on the cake. Both of these have insane early ganks, so building trailblazer makes you farm your jungle faster and be healthier for a gank.

Killer X 12Feb 14, 20156 votes

Riot is too pro. They even juke themselves.

ChessburgerFeb 14, 20154 votes

Where'd you find amumu there? He's the weakest tank jungler atm and tank junglers are in a pretty bad spot already.

ArithianFlameFeb 14, 201511 votes

{quoted}

Where'd you find amumu there? He's the weakest tank jungler atm and tank junglers are in a pretty bad spot already.

Nautilus would like a word. And by "would like a word" I mean he's too busy crying softly in his corner to tell you how wrong you are.

ChessburgerFeb 14, 20157 votes

Nautilus has a 50% healthier clear, better ganks pre 6 and even his 6 is really good. His late is also monstrous, don't try to lecture me I play him a lot.

ArithianFlameFeb 14, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Nautilus has a 50% healthier clear, better ganks pre 6 and even his 6 is really good. His late is also monstrous, don't try to lecture me I play him a lot.

You've played 6 recent ranked matches with amumu and all were wins. I don't see a single nautilus match. I'm having a difficult time believing you.

Amumu's aoe stun has always made him a strong jungle. His teamfight blows naut away. His clear is good, and he puts out far more damage than naut. Combine that with his initiate make him far more useful. According to the overall ranked statistics from LOLking, amumu is both far more popular and more often wins.

ChessburgerFeb 14, 20154 votes

I played 1 game with amumu in ranked which was a win but my lanes all won so it doesn't matter, I played 6 games with amumu in team rankeds in s4 (that's what you're looking at) and won all of them because our team was better and because it wasn't as much of a risk picking him as it is now. + our team comps worked around his weaker early.

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/euw/19690690#profile

if you want to argue it's normal check the ranks of people playing in the game. My normal mmr is very high because that's the mode I've played most for 5 years. Edit: last game not visible yet but you can see the recent game statistics on naut in the last 7 games if that means anything to you.

edit: I usually run him with "test 3" rune page and "malph/naut" masteries. If you want the reasoning I can write out for you, or how to clear

Silents429Feb 14, 20151 votes

I main Nautilus, Could you display the masteries and runes you use for him?

I always like trying to change mine up.

ChessburgerFeb 14, 20151 votes

http://www.lolking.net/summoner/euw/19690690#runes

I currently settled on this and "malph/naut" masteries... It's 21/9 which seems counter-intuitive on a tank but it feels better in-game than 21 in defense so I'm rolling with it for now.

I rush ranger's and mobility boots to zoom around making plays while still being healthy in the jungle through the ranger smite and switch to the skirmisher when I feel like it around mid game for the 20% damage reduction + an even bigger threat to the priority target.

Silents429Feb 15, 20151 votes

Does the armor pen even work on Nautilus?

And is the 48 health change much?

Or that .24 mana regen lol?

I usually have some attack speed and movement speed quints.

ChessburgerFeb 15, 20151 votes

ohh my bad I thought I could link the exact page... the correct one is "test3"

MS quints, atk speed reds, armour yellow, cdr/lvl blues

the first page is an outdated poke support page I need to change :P

Silents429Feb 15, 20151 votes

Ah. I have the same except i get 5% CDR from glyphs, and another 5 from masteries, plus the blue thats 20% early on.

Couldn't imagine how expensive those per level ones are though..

ChessburgerFeb 15, 20151 votes

Flat cdr is fine, I just take scaling because you get 5% by lvl 6 and in the mid-game you have 10% on top of the 5% mastery. I often don't get to build any big cdr item except juggernaut so I just get the 10% from it + 5% from masteries + up to 15% from runes, so if by some miracle my mid doesn't need blue I can cap it at 40% at low cost while building defensive items that don't have cdr tagged onto them (HP items as far as I can remember don't really give CDR except for a few like aegis)

LordOfTheLeagueFeb 14, 20155 votes

Yeah Nautilus has 0 problems in the jungle beside mana costs.

ChessburgerFeb 14, 20154 votes

He's still weak to invades and the sorts but unlike amumu he has 2 very different things that make him better: his defensive steroid comes in a burst (a big shield), his Q can be a good escape if you aim it at a far away wall and pull yourself to it.

Amumu uses twice the mana nautilus uses as well.

That is actually why I stopped bothering with amumu even though I've played him consistently for 5 years. His mana problems are so bad without a spirit stone-like item that it just isn't worth the hassle really. (coupled with his other issues of course)

LordOfTheLeagueFeb 14, 20151 votes

He's still weak early game but invade are rare nowadays and the gromp buff allow him to defend himself in this case. So it's more a weakness than an impossibility to be played.

LeeDarkFeb 14, 20152 votes

The fuck are you talking about? Counterjungling with one of the top four junglers happens in almost EVERY game in the LCS, and a huge number of games in high tier solo queue.

Naut has a slow clear speed, cannot duel any of the top four, and if the enemy jungler counterganks him, it might as well be 2v1 in the enemy's favor. Amumu suffers much the same problem, being unable to handle himself in his own jungle if he finds he opponent in there.

LordOfTheLeagueFeb 14, 20151 votes

My bad. I don't talk about LCS games or challenger tier but only about SoloQ mainly because I'm not at this level.

And a lot of people point the fact that tanks are weak in the jungle but it's completely wrong and at any level. It's just that some junglers are Op. Tanks are not much in a weak spot than a lot of bruisers that are not the top 4.

LeeDarkFeb 15, 20153 votes

Solo queue, even (or especially) at lower levels, follows the LCS and high tier games. A lot of people in Bronze, Silver, and Gold learn what and how to play by watching streams, even if their execution is not as good as the streamer.

Tanks, all tanks, lack a fast clear time and the ability to duel. If they fall behind, they are largely ineffective throughout the game. Even Amumu, whose ult is still useful no matter what, will be more timid if he struggles early. Bruisers that are not the top four struggle in their inability to safely clear the jungle.

Yes, if you play 1000 Amumu games over your lifetime, and almost always pick him, you are probably going to do fine. Even Eve has a path that can clear the jungle fairly safely, and any dedicated Eve main knows this route. But the experienced specialist is FAR less common than the FOTM player jumping on the latest bandwagon. The problem with this is that a champion like Jarvan isn't difficult, so it does not take much for that FOTM player to beat even a seasoned veteran of a much weaker champion.

Tanks are weak in the jungle, not because of the new jungle, but because of the relative strength of the top four. These four champions are pushing almost everything else out of the jungle, and pick rates reflect this.

Leti the YetiFeb 14, 20153 votes

I'm not really bothered by the reduced range Since my ganks go something like...

walk in and intercept escape route
smite the mofo and beat him to a bloody pulp
he either flashes or gets past me
alright, NOW I use my gap closer

AlorasenceFeb 14, 20153 votes

Eve is going to fall to like a 2% win rate after this...

Brenticus12Feb 15, 20151 votes

I don't see how this affects Eve's ganking patterns.

Her ganking patterns involve walking into lane invisible so you're close enough to the target anyway.

DrukyulFeb 14, 20153 votes

Every time they nerf the junglers, they only nerf the ones that can't keep up anyway. Good job Riot.

AuryielFeb 14, 20153 votes

The logic is that the slow helps Lee hits his Q, so nerfing the range on smite makes it harder for Lee to hit his Q

I mean they could have just reduced the missile speed on his Q, but ok...

-_-''

KingRadishManFeb 15, 20151 votes

they should make lee's missle speed the same speed as tf's wild cards it would be hilarious to see the lee ragers bitch that they can't hit anything with it because it moves slightly faster then their champion movement speed.

Only Play DariusFeb 14, 20152 votes

I 100% agree with this.

Why can't riot just leave the jungle alone?

PocketbombFeb 14, 20152 votes

Just play Nunu and don't upgrade machete at all.

Seriously it isn't worth it as a tank to ever upgrade from machate.

StealWolverineFeb 14, 20152 votes

100% wrong always. Any upgrade increase sustain and clear time along with easily paying for itself with the increased gold generation. The smite bonus is just extra.

BudupopsFeb 14, 20152 votes

this is basically a nerf to all junglers with no mobility. Lee has 2 gapclosers so he is going to get that smite off no matter what, but olaf jungle on the other won't even be able to go stalkers anymore because he will never be able to use it.

YormaughmFeb 14, 20152 votes

If they wanted to nerf junglers with reliable gap-closers, they'd have to remove chilling smite from the game. Which would, in turn, hurt junglers that don't have gap closers.

TL:DR: The only way to hamper gap closers without hampering everyone else too, is to nerf their ability to gap close. THE ONLY WAY.

CollectiveFuryFeb 14, 20152 votes

I didn't even think of that, but you're right - this does already frustrate the situation for junglers without gap closers.