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Major Purple Side Weakness in Preseason!

LeviathanTheEnvy··23 votes·4,216 views

Hi. I do not have access to PBE yet but I have noticed a major flaw in the vision given by the crabs in the river. The top side vision garnered by killing the crab gives equal benefit to blue and purple sides. Whereas on bottom, killing the crab does not provide anywhere near as much benefit in terms of vision for purple side. It does not provide vision of the river entrance of blue side to river whereas it would provide awareness of both possible entrances to gank bottom lane from purple side and middle. This clearly conveys another advantage to blue side. The win discrepancy is already around 10% providing an objective that is far less valuable to purple side would skew win rate even more. Most blue side junglers will likely run from bottom blue side area into river to come down instead of taking mid entrance to river and going all the way down in the river. This clearly means purple side does not gain nearly as much from killing the crab as blue side would.

For any Rioters who see this and believe I contributed in some way, I would ask that you please take that into consideration when deciding on whether I can get PBE access. I enjoy playing oddball builds and champions and would really like to test out some weird picks for the new jungle.

32 Comments

Raptamei8 votes

Riot should finally have made the map properly symmetrical, but instead they just set the asymmetry and blue side 58% winrate in stone.

Duke Anax3 votes

fun fact: in S4 EU LCS, red side has 56% winrate.

So the asymetry is causing a difference but not an inherent weakness.

Personally I play better on red.

gubigubi6 votes

Honestly the EU LCS isnt a large enough sample size for something like that. You get teams like Allaince on red side vs Copenhagen wolves on blue side and of course red side is going to win. And it also greatly matters what was going on that game that could be effecting the teams. Its pretty much widely considered purple/red side is the weaker side. Thats why pro teams prefer playing on blue side in the playoffs and at worlds if they get the option to pick it. That is unless your dignitas and pick red/purple side all the games and I think we know how that turned out. And as far as the changes for this next season are concerned I have NO clue what riot wants to do with some of these weird weird things. A roaming crab in the river? It sounds like they just wanted to put a ghost crawler reference in the game... :l

Duke Anax3 votes

The river objective was actually a player suggestion that riot picked up, like a weak ago:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/c/summoners-rift/q5wkMzAW-idea-for-summoners-rift-a-vision-based-objective

This is preseason PBE, so they throw all kinds of "sounds interesting" at it to see how it turns out.

gubigubi4 votes

Id rather see stuff like that in a featured game mode. I really don't think adding stuff like that into actual summoners rift will add anything to the game. Id rather want to see a much more stable game season by season and slowly balance everything not shake the rug and start over every season to see what happens.

LeviathanTheEnvy2 votes

Id rather see stuff like that in a featured game mode. I really don't think adding stuff like that into actual summoners rift will add anything to the game. Id rather want to see a much more stable game season by season and slowly balance everything not shake the rug and start over every season to see what happens.

I think they are trying to add variety. Adding more objectives could lead to something like a 1-1-1-1-1 role scenario. Where one person focuses on counterjungling or taking other objectives while the other one focuses on their own jungle and bottom lane has only one person. Or even double jungling with weaker junglers and a support and clearing much faster to benefit from a weak start junglers later scaling.

gubigubi1 votes

The only problem with that is I'm kind of confused who wants to play 1-1-1-1-1 games. I'm willing to try games that are like this. I'm not willing to have it be the only way to play summoners rift in ranked though.

LeviathanTheEnvy2 votes

The only problem with that is I'm kind of confused who wants to play 1-1-1-1-1 games. I'm willing to try games that are like this. I'm not willing to have it be the only way to play summoners rift in ranked though.

It looks like with the new jungle we will have about a half dozen good junglers. Which to be honest is probably about the same, if not better than what we currently have. It also might possibly open up duo jungling strategy or jungler/counterjungler strategy. Which means we will still have some games similar but we have more variations if we would like to change things up.

LeviathanTheEnvy1 votes

The river objective was actually a player suggestion that riot picked up, like a weak ago:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/c/summoners-rift/q5wkMzAW-idea-for-summoners-rift-a-vision-based-objective

This is preseason PBE, so they throw all kinds of "sounds interesting" at it to see how it turns out.

Interesting. I'm glad they are taking player suggestions. I just hope that they see this thread and realize the importance of moving the vision granted in order to make things a bit more balanced.

Sire Hippington1 votes

since every lcs team plays each other atleasr twice, switching sides in between, you get alliance on red vs compenhaegn wolves on blue just as often as wolves play on red vs alliance on blue. also, takeing NA-lcs as example for blue having a higher winrate while it is the exact same samplesize on games like eu-lce, but saying eu-lcs isn'T a large enough samplesize is pretty hypocrit. And teams mostly prefer blue side at worlds because that also means they have firstpick....

LeviathanTheEnvy1 votes

since every lcs team plays each other atleasr twice, switching sides in between, you get alliance on red vs compenhaegn wolves on blue just as often as wolves play on red vs alliance on blue. also, takeing NA-lcs as example for blue having a higher winrate while it is the exact same samplesize on games like eu-lce, but saying eu-lcs isn'T a large enough samplesize is pretty hypocrit. And teams mostly prefer blue side at worlds because that also means they have firstpick....

Nope. Nothing I said was contradictory. You have one example of lcs where red side won. Numerous lcs splits and tournaments show blue side winning by a large margin. In research, there is a 5% chance of a false positive for the average project. This means that your example is the 5% type 1 error which occurred, while the others are all the examples that support the hypothesis that blue side has a clear advantage.

gubigubi2 votes

I was more saying that pro play as a whole isn't a good sample for what would be best for solo Q. There are to many variables in pro play and not enough games. In solo Que though over like 10,000+ games and blue side is winning the majority its pretty clear that its better. Not only that but nearly anyone prefers blue side over purple side if they can pick it.

LeviathanTheEnvy2 votes

fun fact: in S4 EU LCS, red side has 56% winrate.

So the asymetry is causing a difference but not an inherent weakness.

Personally I play better on red.

That IS somewhat interesting but it is a small sample size. That is likely a type 1 error.

LeviathanTheEnvy1 votes

Riot should finally have made the map properly symmetrical, but instead they just set the asymmetry and blue side 58% winrate in stone.

This is sad but seems to be true, at least for the moment. I had figured with the new map they would have implemented that when they had the easiest opportunity. Hopefully if we make the crab vision issue important, at least we will be able to stop another blue side advantage from being implemented.

Cindikle7 votes

They just need to flip the map along the river to make it work =\

My understanding is that the current SR has incomplete graphics that would make the map look weird from the other side. This shouldn't be a problem if they're making the new SR with this in mind.

NakedGranny3 votes

It's not like they haven't had a thousand times the necessary manpower to have gotten this stuff done three years ago. LoL is a hyper-popular game and Riot employs a lot of people. There just hasn't been any excuse.

Nothing will ever assuage my anger. Riot fucked up proper in the camera and map design department, they'll never get my money. The. End.

Ferryt2 votes

I just cant understand why they dont make new SR from-left-to-right like TT, there would be zero camera angle problems, all 3 lines red and purple with equal sight.

LeviathanTheEnvy1 votes

I just cant understand why they dont make new SR from-left-to-right like TT, there would be zero camera angle problems, all 3 lines red and purple with equal sight.

I'm not sure either what the rationale was.

Teraxe4 votes

Here is an interesting graph

http://static.ongamers.com/uploads/scale_super/0/2262/14969-red_vs_blue_history_by_bli08-d7qsz3t.jpg

LeviathanTheEnvy1 votes

Here is an interesting graph

http://static.ongamers.com/uploads/scale_super/0/2262/14969-red_vs_blue_history_by_bli08-d7qsz3t.jpg

Thanks for the contribution! It is much appreciated.

Void22583 votes

All they needed to do was rotate the map so mid is horizontal and that would fix the problem once and for all. Obviously this requires a few modifications to the layout but they are rotating anyway so that's not a big deal. The insistence that the map not meaningfully change will result in - surprise - NO MEANINGFUL CHANGES TO THE PROBLEMS WITH THE MAP.

LeviathanTheEnvy2 votes

All they needed to do was rotate the map so mid is horizontal and that would fix the problem once and for all. Obviously this requires a few modifications to the layout but they are rotating anyway so that's not a big deal. The insistence that the map not meaningfully change will result in - surprise - NO MEANINGFUL CHANGES TO THE PROBLEMS WITH THE MAP.

I'm in the same boat. I do not understand why they didn't do it when they had the chance. Hopefully we can at least get them to change this one slight benefit to blue side before it is implemented though.

Void22583 votes

Basically "if it ain't broke (enough to drive people to stop playing our game), don't fix it (unless it can be unfixed rapidly and with minimal effort)".

Basically, League is the cash cow and they don't want to change ANYTHING major like the map for fear that they will lose teh monies. If people get upset about a change in an item they can just fix it with nerfs or buffs to numbers, but if people get upset about the map change it's much bigger of a deal.

LeviathanTheEnvy1 votes

Basically "if it ain't broke (enough to drive people to stop playing our game), don't fix it (unless it can be unfixed rapidly and with minimal effort)".

Basically, League is the cash cow and they don't want to change ANYTHING major like the map for fear that they will lose teh monies. If people get upset about a change in an item they can just fix it with nerfs or buffs to numbers, but if people get upset about the map change it's much bigger of a deal.

Possibly true. It seems like they are just so chaotic they don't prioritize things like that and other things particularly well.

Sire Hippington1 votes

that would change prettymuch nothing. The thing is that the mab is pointsymetric, not axisymmetric, so bot and top will never be equall on both sides. Also, Dragon beeing a earlygame objective and Baron a lategame ads another asymetrie to it. rtating the map would change nothing at all about that.

The effort to actually 'fix' the map would be enormous and it would definitly not provide enough value to be worth it.

Malgana3 votes

I kinda hope the entire crab thing doesn't even make it to live, it's a stupid idea that will do nothing but make roaming and snowballing get way out of control.

gubigubi1 votes

Even if it barely impacts the game at all I really don't see any reason to add something like that to the game.

Arya Starck2 votes

purple side is a huge disadvantage, can;t see anything!

Sire Hippington2 votes

that already is a common problem. on blue side, u just need one ward to get the enemy jungle entrance snd river+dragon, on purple side u would atleast 2 wards to do so(3 if u want to cover both entrances+dragon). the only way to prevent that would be changeing the map itself(probably not gonna happen), or let the crab give vision on the full river(bit overkill, and the ward thing still is uneven) also, u have some advantage on getting ur toplaner saver by getting vision on blue-jungle entrance. So in the end, both sides get vision on objectives and 1 rather save lane. This probably ends in some strategic deversity, depending on which side u play, as u could get a rather agressive toplaner on red side that gets extra protection by the crab vision, while on blue u can run a more agressiv botlane.

Lneacx1 votes

???

LeviathanTheEnvy1 votes

???

The vision in the bottom screenshot blocks off all ganking routes from purple/red side. Whereas the vision from blue side bottom does not block off gankers from entering river from bottom blue side entrance.

Gunpoint1 votes

Wat do u mean by crab...

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