@Meddler Something Needs To Be Done About The Lackluster Late Game Of Supports!

Lord Retrospect··19 votes·6,827 views
LoL Esports

So as I watch league at every level (whether it's bronze, high ELO streamers, or competitive play), the one thing that I notice every game is the supports. I don't mean their play, I mean the fact that they are always behind level-wise. And that makes things really annoying to play and watch. In most cases in competitive play, they filter all the experience into the Marksman while the support roams. And I was thinking of a possible way to fix this without breaking the game. The solution that I came up with is a system similar to one that is already implemented into the game. It's basically the same system set up for the junglers. In order to get any real experience with camps, you have to use a jungle item. Well I was thinking that the junglers benefit from this so much because they are gonna kill jungle camps no matter what, so it's basically built for them. What if we could do that with supports?** What is the one thing that separates supports from the others.** Everyone places wards, but supports clear them the most. So What if we give experience for killing wards. but we make it similar to junglers. You have to buy a support item to get the experience. And it won't be a ton of experience. Not enough that everyone will start a support item, but enough that maybe they can at least get a 3rd point in their ultimate by the end of the game. Maybe just under a minion's worth of experience. Maybe it scales with the game time or with minion worth. Maybe it doesn't scale at all. I think beta will be able to solve that for us. And yes, junglers buy the red trinket and clear wards a lot too, but they get enough experience from jungle camps, so they would have no purpose in buying a support item other than delaying their power spikes. And it would hurt almost everyone else if they tried to buy a support item just for the experience. Maybe it helps is the deciding factor of the support getting the gold and the experience or the ADC coming in and taking the last hit for the gold. It will also be a tool to teach low level players to clear wards. Kind of like a reward system.

     I understand that it is not a perfect idea and it might be something that will change the meta in super low ELO play as they try to get every advantage that they can. But I know that In high ELO play and even the competitive scene, it won't be enough of an advantage for them to risk getting it. I had kind of envisioned it to make up for the old mastery that was removed. Maybe we set the experience gained at a set amount that scales off how far behind your team you are. Maybe it is a set amount that scales with time of the game. Maybe it is a flat amount the whole game like the gold from wards is. I don't think that the experience should be gained from clearing pink wards though, but that is up for beta to tell if it will be worth it. And I also think that it should be a part of every type of support item meaning both the ones that have special actives and the one that builds from Sight Stone.

     I have linked the Spring Split Finals as a reference to anyone thinking that i am only basing my judgement on low level play. In game 1 the supports are as far as 5 levels behind being level 13 when their team is starting to reach level 18. And in game 5, the only reason that the supports are only 3 levels behind is because the game goes on for almost an hour. (i wouldn't recommend watching the whole game. just skip through the vods to late game, but you do you.)

    ** Thank You For Your Time! :)**

85 Comments

RiotMeddler13 votes

Hey, thanks for the well written thread. With you on the issue of supports being under-leveled. We made some changes to how XP calculations work in the pre-season that helped address some rubberbanding issues but also introduced this issue for supports. We'll be making some adjustments to improve that in an upcoming patch (most likely 6.13). XP for ward kills is one of the things we've got plans for there, though from memory with slightly different triggers to the ones you're proposing here. I'll pass this thread on to some of the folks looking into that stuff, thanks!

coniciua4 votes

could there also be like a mastery like before that gives you 5 or 10 experience whenever you would stay near a more leveled player ? probably in the 3rd mastery 2nd tier ? I think that would also help a bit

LankPants2 votes

You realise that mastery did basically nothing? To go from lv 1 to 2 you need 280 exp, that mastery took 2 whole minutes to get from 1 to 2, and the experience needed only goes up from there.

I'm not saying that the mastery concept is horrible, but at two exp/sec that mastery was utter garbage, at one/sec as you're suggesting it would be even worse.

RiotMeddler12 votes

I think such a mastery would often end up being a trap and that we'd be better off addressing support XP systemically so that players can pick more engaging masteries.

MunchCrunchLunch7 votes

why not implement the XP in the finished support items? and only works in a way so that it doesn't get abused by laners. per say. it accounts for the other levels in the game and adjusts your passive gain through the item accordingly. not all supports go on warding missions. some are fragile and aren't their role to do that. its usually assigned to the jungler instead

also better gold for supports (buffing gold runes for example. the gold gen was changed in pre season but the runes left unchanged) would be welcomed. I don't main support or even play it a lot but I would like the role quality to be improved so me and more people play it and don't feel like we're the gimped team mate.

BADxW0LF1 votes

I like the idea for the XP, but the gold for supports is much better than it was prior to the preseason. With the master that gives you gold per minion killed near you, it used to only give said gold if a nearby champ killed it. Now it's just whenever a nearby enemy minion dies. Much much better. Plus the gold amount on the income items was raised quite a bit. As a support main, I have no issues with income. The only thing that I would see being changed is the GP10 on the income items. Maybe make it a GP5.

Blåbæret1 votes

TBH, even then the gold supports get is like literally Nothing.

Krys Star3 votes

Add Inspiration unto Bandit. Bandit is a very lackluster and more of a newb trap mastery. At least with Inspiration, it'd have purpose and a good feeling to it.

Awoof5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frozen Sovereign,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=BXi3w3I3,comment-id=0007000000010001,timestamp=2016-06-01T08:08:58.565+0000)

Add Inspiration unto Bandit. Bandit is a very lackluster and more of a newb trap mastery. At least with Inspiration, it'd have purpose and a good feeling to it.

Maybe we have different definitions of "newb trap", but bandit does it's job and is used on solo laners as well.

coniciua1 votes

Now that you put it that way I guess it's true, Thank you for the response :)

Beldair1 votes

I knew I could trust the Riot devs to give us Supports some love.

We feel it devs, we feel it ❤

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

YES, systemic changes to support role please, as well as increased LP gains and better tuned mastery grades would make the whole game so much better by increasing the number of people who are ok with supporting.

War The Horseman1 votes

Then why not simply get a reasonable solution.

Support items for gold generation (Make it so only people who qued for Support role can buy them) get two new abilities:

Double gold for killed wards (30 instead of 15 for yellow and 60 instead of 30 for pinks)

The item gets the inspiration mastery as a passive http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Inspiration_%28Season_Four_Mastery%29

With a few changes of course:

  • You are tethered to the closest champion to you. (yes it's global)
  • 1exp/sec is perfect for when 1 level behind the closest champion
  • 2exp when 2 levels behind
  • 3exp when 3 or above levels behind.

Level 2 on a champion requires 280 EXP (Check lol wiki)

Every level after that is = 280 + 100x(Champ Level - 2)

The average games are 25-30 minutes. If the support is tethered to a champion higher level than him for 20 minutes that would be:

_** #20x60= 1200 EXP (when 1 level behind his teamates) => This is a free level 11 worth of experience! _**

For the record, the rough average champion level for 20 minutes (checked my last 20 games without the stomps)

on the rift is 12

  • top laners average 13
  • mid is 12.5
  • jungler 12
  • adc 11.5
  • support 11

Meaning if the support constantly receives 1 exp (he won't as he will catch up in levels) he will be at least around the 11.5 mark on average (same as ADC) even if he roamed.

This will fix the under leveled supports issue but it might birth a new meta where supports roam near top laners (as they are usually the highest level) and get access to level 12 Exp on 20 while ADC also get level 12 EXP (solo lane exp due to roams) making bot lane higher level for mid game team fighting.

Personally, I find it interesting but this will also mean that I will have less EXP advantage as a Top laner main so I'm not too sure I want this shift in the meta. (and the coin support item will become even more useless than now....)

This will change the meta a lot. ADCs get insane advantages in EXP during the midgame team fighting as they are usually the last to die if the teams play correctly.

Meaning they get the most EXP out of team fights in mid game + almost solo lane EXP on bot + catching side waves in their free time post 20.

The most worrying factor is that they enter the mid game team fights 1 level higher than before.

I'm not gonna be very happy with the damage they output but this will be a slight indirect nerf to tank meta and a buff to assassins when the fights go correctly.

To conclude - it is nice to poke around with meta more and higher level ADCs and Supports means more EXP when I assassinate them so hell why not ? [slayer-jinx-catface]

LordGeovanni1 votes

that could work if carries dont leave the farm in their lane just to take the ward you are killing away from you and save their autos to last hit wards with their faster attack speeds at every chance

Lord Retrospect1 votes

Yes, that is gonna be a problem is selfish carries that will try to take the gold, but my idea was more to try to give you alternatives since you are going to be roaming on most supports anyway, maybe you have a chance to stay even with your team. And it will mostly come into play when laning phase is over and you are going to be warding and clearing wards in objectives and flank paths. By then you're gonna be the most behind and you're gonna be able to use it if you're 5 levels behind. You have to clear the eats anyway, so why not get a reward for it.

Lauchmelder2 votes

What about ward placement too? Encouraging vision control by implementing XP rewards for placing/clearing wards? Alternatively you could just slap a certain XP/5 onto Sightstone (would probably be the easiest solution)

Lord Retrospect1 votes

Thanks for responding! I'm glad that you guys noticed it as well. My recommendation would be to do something like alphavhunter suggested to where you tie it to a group of support specific items except to where it scales off how far behind the player is from his/her team. But as long as it is being addressed, I'm happy. I just thought I would share my idea in case none had been presented. Also sorry for the long post. I got passionate and got carried away. In retrospect I could have condensed. :)

Sire Hippington1 votes

i don't think tieing xp to ward kills is a great idea, as it's very unreliable and depends alot on your opponents, as your xp kinda scales with the wards placed by your opponents. As a result, you have little agency over the xp gain compared to laners or junglers. It also makes balanceing the numbers properly rathe difficult as the number of wards destroyed can vary greatly between games.

Rather add a masterie or a passive to the gp 10 item that increases xp from objective and maybe champion takedowns, possibly scaleing with hiw far behind the average level you are, as objectives are onstant on the map, you always know where they are and how much there are, so balanceing around that is easier.

Lord Retrospect1 votes

While I agree that wards placed by the enemy team is a lot less of a consistent factor than objectives and such, when I made the past, I kept in mind what that post by riot saying that the meta is mostly based off of the pro scene and I know that the pros are a lot more consistent at placing wards throughout the game. And really the only games that the enemy team are for sure not gonna place wards are the stomps where you have them turtling in their base and they can't place wards. And even then the pros and high Elo players can usually find time and ways to ward objectives. :)

q3fogWe6LF1 votes

Soraka Thanks for looking out for the supports too! :)

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

Regarding XP, did you realise the jungle XP killer-only restriction from midseason didn't go through? You can still take a part of the jungler's lvl2 by leashing.

OldDirtay1 votes

{quoted}

Hey, thanks for the well written thread. With you on the issue of supports being under-leveled. We made some changes to how XP calculations work in the pre-season that helped address some rubberbanding issues but also introduced this issue for supports. We'll be making some adjustments to improve that in an upcoming patch (most likely 6.13). XP for ward kills is one of the things we've got plans for there, though from memory with slightly different triggers to the ones you're proposing here. I'll pass this thread on to some of the folks looking into that stuff, thanks!

so to fix supports, ur putting xp on something anyone can kill

do u even think b4 u ruin games or do u kinda just wing it?

Lord Retrospect1 votes

If you read the thread, you would see that yes, anyone can clear it for the gold but you have to have a support item to get the experience with the proposed plan.

HateDaddy4 votes

...that's actually not a bad suggestion. I would probably make tie it into a support item and only allow the champions with the item to gain exp from it. I mean, you can lifesteal off a ward, may as well get some exp off it lol

alfavhunter4 votes

Killing stealth wards now grant 5Xlvl in exp

Gold income item causes you to gain 200% exp from wards

Sight stone causes you to gain 200% exp from wards

Sweeper lense causes you to gain 100% bonus exp from wards

So having all 3 items now grants the support +500% exp for a total of 600% on ward kills, resulting in 30Xlvl exp for a support with all 3 items

Revealing an enemy ward now grants you the exp for its kill regardless of who kills it

Killing a vision ward does not grant exp

q3fogWe6LF1 votes

Taric: "This.. this is stunning."

Guyy Fieri3 votes

The way I look at it, Support champs are supports because of some inherit utility they being to the table (usually). Utility is very strong early game when the damage focused champions don't have enough damage yet to counteract it. The supports job is not to carry the game. It's to enable their carry to get to their "carry" build before the other carry. As such, supports don't need to have a strong late provided that they can be useful early game and make leads by setting up kills. If by the time their fall off based on the other team dealing too much damage, then they lose the game since they couldn't snowball their lane, plain and simple in my opinion.

TNHA Baritone2 votes

How far behind what/who? Your team: yes. The enemy team: no.

LostFr0st2 votes

What about the cases where the ADC last hits the ward for the gold? I'm hoping they'll account for the proximity factor in the exp whatever they decide on.

Lord Retrospect1 votes

That's a valid point and yes that would be a good way to help with that issue. But with adding a benefit to supports, then at higher elo maybe it will be an incentive to the team to funnel the ward kills to someone who will benefit the most from it. :)

LostFr0st1 votes

I don't like that smiley face <.< If they do this I really don't wanna "give" the precious ward kills to my carry ;-; (by that I mean they last hit it when I'm clearing a ward). maybe give it to whoever is holding the scanner.

Lord Retrospect3 votes

Well, the way that I proposed the whole thing is that you have to have a support item in order to get the experience from wards. Otherwise you would only get the gold. That's why I'm saying that the team will funnel ward kills to the support since anyone without a support item will only get gold. Which is also why I suggested that the experience gained should be a small amount that scales of how far behind you are from your team so that it won't be worth it for the carries to build the support item.

LostFr0st1 votes

Gotchu^^ That sounds nice. I'm really glad Meddler saw your post OP.

Lord Retrospect2 votes

Me too. And thank you for your input!

Maximum Morde2 votes

Voted other cause we should just start Supports at lvl 18 with 15k gold.

Sevixys1 votes

Or not, lulu pentakill

Lord Retrospect1 votes

Lol

MotrColt1 votes

They are far behind in competitive because they are constantly roaming and warding, a lot of it is purposeful as they want to leave lanes for periods of time so the adc can get the full experience and carry like their name suggests. Sure you can have a support who sits in lane all game and scales great into an additional ap carry like a brand or vel'koz, you just lose out on other factors.

Based on prop play, the low level supports are by design and are somehow the optimal way to play.

TLDR: It's not a flaw it's by design!

Lord Retrospect1 votes

And I wholeheartedly agree that the support should roam and make plays in other lanes and feed the experience of a lane to the ADC. That's all fine and dandy. I'm saying that it's not the support's fault they are designed to leave experience behind to MAYBE get an assist in a gank. And if they don't get that kill, then they just completely missed out on all the exp and gained nothing for their efforts at creating pressure elsewhere. I'm not trying to change the name of the game. I'm trying to help out a role that unfortunately gets screwed for doing what it is set up to do. I agree that the support it better off roaming, but then late game they have nothjing to show for it if they didn't get assists to make up for the lane experience they were missing. Do you see where I'm coming from or still no? :)

MotrColt1 votes

they have nothing to show for it? you're missing the point of supports at high levels of play. they build no items for themselves do no damage nothing like that they are there purely to get there team ahead. What they have to show for a roam is a bigger teammate. The whole point of a support is to get your team big enough to where you win before late game because your remaining 4 teammates are further ahead by your sacrifice.

If it does get to late game you lose the trade off and you would have been better off with a scaling support. honestly if you added experience to clearing wards I think the supports would just reveal the wards and have their teammates clear them to take the experience themselves. They don't want more experience they want their teammates with more experience.

Lord Retrospect2 votes

And that's why I'm saying that you would have to have a support item to get the experience. I'm not saying that i don't understand why they are behind. Because I do. I'm saying that it doesn't have to be that way. And it is really easy to fix without changing any major component of the game itself.

MotrColt1 votes

whats stopping other people from buying the support item, do you have to take exhaust like most supports in the same way junglers take smite? because if so many mid laners could take it, heck the adc may take exhaust and the support would take heal if that was the case. You have to come up with a way to make it so only the support can have this item,

have the same problems if you make it mastery requirement.

maybe you make it expensive enough to where its not worth going into for the other laners? if thats the case though its put the support behind more on their sightstone which isnt worth it so they wouldnt take the item til 2nd which still woudlnt be worth it because by the time they finally have the gold for it due to their income being so low the game would be 15-20 minutes in.

put it on sightstone? junglers would go back to buying sightstone and theyd have more experience now.

I just don't see a feasible way to pull this off yet with how you have presented it without giving everyone else mroe experience too

Lord Retrospect2 votes

No, I feel you shouldn't have to take exhaust. It's not like the jungle where you need smite to jungle. Support summoners is more fluid. And what will stop them is that It won't be worth the experience to delay their power spikes. Did you read my article? I have covered everything you have brought up in the article.

MotrColt2 votes

Yes i get its a support item that gives your more experience. I don't see what is preventing a mid laner from buying the support item. What do you have that makes it so only a support can buy it? For junglers they have to have smite. what do supports have to have so that only they can buy it?

If it is enough experience to give a suppport 5 levels late game like you suggest I don't see how a mid laner wouldn't want to take that over their power spike items as 2 or 3 levels is by far worth more.

Either its so little experience it doesnt matter or its enough to where mid laners would want to buy it too. So i think it would have to have a support specific scenario such as smite for junglers or I don't see it working

sheldonbunny2 votes

{quoted}

honestly if you added experience to clearing wards I think the supports would just reveal the wards and have their teammates clear them to take the experience themselves. They don't want more experience they want their teammates with more experience.

You missed the point. The support item would be giving the passive of additional experience from ward clearing. The rest of the team would not be getting it.

JadeKnightblazer1 votes

Might sound odd... but why not allow abilities that "Support" other players. (Heals, shields, ect things that supports do) grant exp? Via +5 - 10 xp each time an On ally ability is used.

Lord Retrospect1 votes

Because supports like leona and blitz wouldn't get anything for it. Yeah, they bring cc, but so do non supports so you can't reward them for cc.

FourVsFive1 votes

What about making Sight stone (or gold items) give 10% exp bonus for kills(minnions) other allies get.

Lord Retrospect1 votes

it's not a horrible. the only problems is that junglers usually build sight stone too. especially lee sin. And yeah, that won't be a major issue because a jungler won't be in lane to take advantage of that, but after laning phase when everyone is grouped, then the junglers will sky rocket in experience.

FourVsFive1 votes

What if the XP bonus only works if the person killing the minnions is higher level then you?

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