Removal of Azir's Knock-up...

StrayBalloon·Jul 24, 2015·7 votes·5,785 views

Was playing Azir today and I couldn't help but notice that his knock-up was removed. It feels wrong. I honestly find him to be unplayable like this. Does anyone agree?

53 Comments

ManwalrusJul 25, 20152 votes

Looks like you couldn't bother to read the patch notes

StrayBalloonJul 25, 20151 votes

Well I play the game for what it is. I don't research what's going to change, or what the pro players are doing. But since you mentioned it, I had a look at them. I didn't even notice that they removed his Atk spd gains from CDR passive. That's gonna change itemization quite a bit.

And the explanation for this nerf made it sound like it was impossible to gank Azir. Removing the knockup hasn't changed how safe he can play. It just makes it impossible for Azir to get any kills now. But I guess that's what everybody wants.

ManwalrusJul 25, 20152 votes

Passive's attack speed portion shifted to W. E no longer knocks up.

That was the TL;DR on the Azir changes so it looks like you didn't really take a close enough look at the patch notes. Also if you'd been paying any sort of attention to the boards since his PBE changes you'd know a lot about this nerf considering that there were multiple featured posts about it. One of which that I remember sepecifically was written by MasterCorgi who's actually commenting on this thread. You don't need to do a lot of "research" to find these things out, just take 10 mins to read the patch notes. On a separate note what does what the pro players are doing have anything to do with this?

TheRakkunJul 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Looks like you couldn't bother to read the patch notes

Yeah like Riot actually believes what they say, his engage was never his problem.

ManwalrusJul 25, 20151 votes

Please clarify what you meant. Riot issues the patch notes, how do they not believe what they actually wrote?

TheRakkunJul 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Please clarify what you meant. Riot issues the patch notes, how do they not believe what they actually wrote?

They're not nerfing the elements of his kits that make him oporessive (Endless lane poke and harass) they're nerfing the playmaking parts of his kit so people are less likely to play him in the LCS because he was getting stale to see, happened with Rek'Sai RIP.

ManwalrusJul 25, 20151 votes

Riot obviously believes that's his problem, they also are nerfing his early lane harass because pre nerf his Q was maxed first, now with W being the best option he doesn't deal nearly as much damage early. Also, Rek'Sai and her numbers were awful and needed a nerf, that's why she was being spammed in the lcs and solo q alike.

TheRakkunJul 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Riot obviously believes that's his problem, they also are nerfing his early lane harass because pre nerf his Q was maxed first, now with W being the best option he doesn't deal nearly as much damage early. Also, Rek'Sai and her numbers were awful and needed a nerf, that's why she was being spammed in the lcs and solo q alike.

Incorrect, he now gets 2/5ths the attack speed he had at lvl 18 (Standard CDR/lvl build) at level 1 meaning Q can still be maxed first effectively.

Riot literally solved none of his actual problems, the only thing they did was make him less interesting in hopes that LCS players will stop playing him due to him becoming a "Stale pick" like Rek'Sai became.

ManwalrusJul 25, 20151 votes

Another part of his problems was that it was really hard to gank him,removing the knock up helped him be more fair and allow some counterplay to the shurima shuffle as well as him insecing you in lane. The pros still play rek'sai and they're only 'stale' because of how overplayed they both were.

TheRakkunJul 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Another part of his problems was that it was really hard to gank him,removing the knock up helped him be more fair and allow some counterplay to the shurima shuffle as well as him insecing you in lane. The pros still play rek'sai and they're only 'stale' because of how overplayed they both were.

Thing is he wasn't that hard to gank due to the fact his E stopped if he hits an enemy, meaning if a jungler moved behind him he would more often than not die. If they wanted to remove anything I'd rather them make the ultimate able to be dashed over, that way he's got less disengage and people caught in the Shurima Shuffle had a way to escape, rather than making it near impossible to pull off. The thing I'm complaining about is that Riot has a habit of nerfing champs that are overplayed, whether they're balanced or not (I mean Azir did need nerfs but these were really misguided).

Crowe StalkerJul 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If they wanted to remove anything I'd rather them make the ultimate able to be dashed over

Do you mean removing the whole point of Azir's ultimate? At that point it's a knockback and Anivia Wall and nothing else, on a much longer cooldown no less.

TheRakkunJul 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Do you mean removing the whole point of Azir's ultimate? At that point it's a knockback and Anivia Wall and nothing else, on a much longer cooldown no less.

And why would that be a problem? A knockback is a very very strong thing, hell, maybe they could make it so it only blocks one dash per champion? Just leave the knockup be.

Crowe StalkerJul 25, 20151 votes

Or, or, OR they could remove the stupid worthless shield in favor of the knock-up instead. the Shield looks cool, sure, but it doesn't really protect you from much, maybe like a single auto or half a spell in the late game (two autos or a full spell if you go Bruiser Azir)

Making his Ultimate be dashable over would ruin part of what makes it what it is though. Those soldiers aren't there to be like: Azir : 'GET OFF OF ME!' MY SOLDIERS MARCH ON Rengar : Hop Azir : Soldiers stare and let him through

It's there to be like: Azir : 'GET OFF OF ME!' MY SOLDIERS MARCH ON Rengar : Hop Azir : Shield bashes Rengar back 'NO MEANS NO!'

TheRakkunJul 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Or, or, OR they could remove the stupid worthless shield in favor of the knock-up instead. the Shield looks cool, sure, but it doesn't really protect you from much, maybe like a single auto or half a spell in the late game (two autos or a full spell if you go Bruiser Azir)

Making his Ultimate be dashable over would ruin part of what makes it what it is though. Those soldiers aren't there to be like: : 'GET OFF OF ME!' MY SOLDIERS MARCH ON : Hop : Soldiers stare and let him through

It's there to be like: : 'GET OFF OF ME!' MY SOLDIERS MARCH ON : Hop : Shield bashes Rengar back 'NO MEANS NO!'

Thing is I'm not sure Riot is just going to let that happen, I would be fine just getting rid of the shield. Not only that if you want to keep the Shurima shuffle something's got to give :/

CatastropJul 25, 20152 votes

He doesn't need that knock up anyway. The knock up was just there so he could get behind them and ult, which he can still can do by just walking behind them quickly.

Names Are ScarceJul 24, 20151 votes

I made a post about it and instantly got a bunch of people flaming me. :D

StrayBalloonJul 24, 20153 votes

If people think Azir needed to be nerfed, they may have valid reasons for it. But removing the knock-up feels like a cruel joke. It's not some freelo feature in his kit. It's very easy to mess up, and whether you succeed in hitting a champion or not it puts you further in harms way to make use of it.

What exactly is the reward for bodyslamming a champ now? A weak shield and possibly being in a bad position. Why would I ever purposely dash into an enemy champ when I could just Q+E away from danger, and then continue the long range poke combo.

I think all dedicated Azir players can agree, this is very disappointing.

Names Are ScarceJul 25, 20151 votes

I'm just patching my game now and I'll play a game as Azir. I'll just remember not to E onto anyone. :/

Crowe StalkerJul 25, 20151 votes

I think what they wanted to do was A) Make the Shuriman Shuffle harder, and B) Reward enemy players for interrupting dashes to safety. Personally I think if they wanted to do something like that, they should have changed it to a .25 second knock-up or maybe convert it to a Stun (which is mitigated by Tenacity so a Tank like Irelia gets like, a fizzle) It would allow him to interrupt channels without being forced to use Emperor's Divide.

This complicates his ability to duel people capable of channeling effects Pre-6 and even sometimes Post-6 because sometimes you want to actually save your ult for a Disengage or a Flank.

Even with item 3027 item 3116 item 3151 (which in and of itself is far from an ideal build) Your Shield equates to about 520 at max rank. basically his Shield is trying to encourage him to build bruiser (it scales off of Bonus Health) but you want to build more squishy because Rylai doesn't have a strong slow on Azir (Noticable? Yes, your Soldiers may actually get another auto which can make all the difference in the world. Strong? Not so much.) and you want to have maxed CDR because it allows you to re-position soldiers effectively.

So they removed our Knock-up which not only let us do the infamous Shuriman Shuffle, sure, but they removed it in favor of a shield that belongs on a Tank, not a Mage. Compared to losing both? I'll take the Shield but I'd much rather have the Knock-up.

CatSithJul 24, 20151 votes

Would you prefer them to remove the shield instead? Because one of them had to go.

TheRakkunJul 24, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Would you prefer them to remove the shield instead? Because one of them had to go.

Yep, Knockup over shield any day.

StrayBalloonJul 24, 20152 votes

Honestly, I'd prefer the shield be gone. The knock-up rewards good positioning in a 1v1. The shield mitigates damage from all sources, which makes no sense why a jungler who has successfully ganked you would have their damage reduced when you body slammed the laner.

Removing the knock-up has also changed possible counter play options with Azir. How am I going to stop a Katarina Ult now? What about Fiddlesticks drain?

The shield does nothing but make all-ins safer. The knock-up defines his potential MU's. I think it was a mistake to remove it; and will probably not play Azir anymore since other mid laners can achieve the same playstyle but also bring hard CC as well (Orianna, Xerath, Ziggs, etc.)

Names Are ScarceJul 25, 20152 votes

Shield is useless. I'd rather have the knock-up.

RenailleJul 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Removing the knock-up has also changed possible counter play options with Azir. How am I going to stop a Katarina Ult now? What about Fiddlesticks drain?

Ult

AlextricaAug 22, 20151 votes

But u basically need to be In melee range to use ur ultimate and why would you waste a 100 second Cookstown ultimate to stop a drain that will be up in 6 seconds

TheRakkunJul 24, 20151 votes

He's lost all his fun, I think I'm just going to stop playing honestly.

Riot will never fucking listen.

StrayBalloonJul 24, 20153 votes

It's sad because I liked Azir since day one. I played him on beta through a friends account, and I knew he'd be one of my new mains. But I agree, there's no reason to play Azir when other mages can poke from the same (or further) distances AND ALSO have hard CC.

ChargeItDownMidJul 24, 20151 votes

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TheRakkunJul 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

He is still very good, he just isn't as overpowered as he was with the knockup.

No, he really Isn't I thought he would be still very good but without his E > ult he can't seccure a kill, he can only force out of lane and he will NEVEr be able to get enough snowball to get him to the same state he was before.

StrayBalloonJul 25, 20151 votes

IDK. I viewed the dash knock-up to be a risky maneuver. It may have seemed strong, but it's nearly impossible to get kills without knocking up the opposing champ. There's been times when a laner baited me into using it, just so the jungler could gank me without fear of me dashing back under turret.

So as it is now, there's no reason for Azir to dash into a champ because it doesn't help with securing a kill. This also means that Azir will be harder to kill because he'll always use his dash for escaping.

ChargeItDownMidJul 25, 20151 votes

[deleted]

TheRakkunJul 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The entire point was to remove azir's ability to eqr at level 6 to secure kills. His lategame is so powerful right now that he shouldn't have had a strong all in at 6.

You idiot all champions have a strong level 6 that's the fucking point of an ultimate.

ManwalrusJul 25, 20152 votes

Hmm, all champions have a level 6 powerspike? What about Jayce AD KogMaw Mordekaiser Nami Nidalee RekSai Singed Taric Teemo (only his annoyance spikes) Udyr Urgot Xerath ?

Crowe StalkerJul 25, 20151 votes

Elise You forgot someone.

TheRakkunJul 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Hmm, all champions have a level 6 powerspike? What about ** Gains a lot more power with the hammer form and gets bonus resistance reduction on enemies ** AD ** Allows him to finish off fleeing enemies which he had trouble doing pre-6** ** Gives him a DoT to finish of an enemy and almost guaranteed tower take if he kills the enemy** ** Huge playmaking and catch potential** ** Huge damage increase to cougar abilities allowing easier catch and kill** Gives her amazing map pressure at level 6 ** Powerful catch potential and stat steroid** I'll give you that one but Taric is just bad in general (only his annoyance spikes) ** Great map control and becomes near impossible to all-in** Putting a point into anything other than bearstance can effectively double his damage ** Gives great catch potential and all-in potential** ** Amazing catch potential** Has to be in melee range to use it and has no reliable way of staying within melee range anymore, used to be a great way of securing a kill that he would otherwise struggle to get ?

Crowe StalkerJul 25, 20151 votes

Have you actually played Mordekaiser ? You can nullify his Level 6 Ultimate's Damage over Time with a freaking item 2003 I'm not joking.

RekSai ? If you break her tunnels she's not threatening a damn thing except Wolf Camp, and that's if she's Jungle. If she's top it's a glorified Teleport back.

Singed ? it's Stats, but hardly catch potential because most top-laners can effectively counter him.

Udyr ? You can't put a fourth point into an ability at level 6.

Urgot ? Defensive Stats in exchange for being in a bad position. Unless it's an Ulting Katarina or Nunu or a Draining Fiddlesticks you can forget about it being 'useful' as a suppression because if you do all-in, everyone needs to go to where they will be rather than where they are now. If you drag them under tower it's strong but otherwise it's situational.

TheRakkunJul 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Have you actually played Mordekaiser? You can nullify his Level 6 Ultimate's Damage over Time with a freaking I'm not joking.

Rek'sai? If you break her tunnels she's not threatening a damn thing except Wolf Camp, and that's if she's Jungle. If she's top it's a glorified Teleport back.

Singed? it's Stats, but hardly catch potential because most top-laners can effectively counter him.

Udyr? You can't put a fourth point into an ability at level 6.

Urgot? Defensive Stats in exchange for being in a bad position. Unless it's an Ulting Katarina or Nunu or a Draining Fiddlesticks you can forget about it being 'useful' as a suppression because if you do all-in, everyone needs to go to where they will be rather than where they are now. If you drag them under tower it's strong but otherwise it's situational.

Well you ult them when they have no way to counter the DoT (Wait untill they've used their health pots trying to heal from E poke), Rek'Sai requires strategic tunnel placements , not just placing them willy nilly, never played udyr, sorry i'll give you that one but he does work uniquely. Singed also gives him an MS boost along with tonnes of stats so it does give him catch potential, And Urgot isn't going to be put in a bad position if he uses it correctly, and Urgot is mostly played in a solo-lane anyway so he doesn't have to worry about another laner.

Most of the points you made only really stand if the person playing them is an idiot.

Crowe StalkerJul 25, 20151 votes

: item 2041 E should be used to clear a wave and force them into tower, if they are standing in it they are doing it wrong and deserve to die. Good players will make you pick and as Mordekaiser unless they are half-health you want the Wave more.

RekSai : Strategic Tunnel Positioning... I'll give you that, my experience with Rek'sai has varied from 'Nowhere is safe for you' to 'I can't put a damn tunnel on this map without it popping ten seconds later' especially after the health nerf made her much more vulnerable (in my experience) to an early invade.

Singed : Again, most people counter Singed in lane whether it's through superior trading or just tanking better than he can.

Urgot : Again I concede to you, but most Urgots I've seen have been hit-or-miss (considering I'm currently Bronze 1 and don't queue ranked much I suppose that's a given.)

TheRakkunJul 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

: E should be used to clear a wave and force them into tower, if they are standing in it they are doing it wrong and deserve to die. Good players will make you pick and as Mordekaiser unless they are half-health you want the Wave more.

: Strategic Tunnel Positioning... I'll give you that, my experience with Rek'sai has varied from 'Nowhere is safe for you' to 'I can't put a damn tunnel on this map without it popping ten seconds later' especially after the health nerf made her much more vulnerable (in my experience) to an early invade.

: Again, most people counter Singed in lane whether it's through superior trading or just tanking better than he can.

: Again I concede to you, but most Urgots I've seen have been hit-or-miss (considering I'm currently Bronze 1 and don't queue ranked much I suppose that's a given.)

With singed that's just a general problem with him, but you can't deny he does get a lot of power (Comparative to without his ult) at level 6

With Morde IDK tbh but it looks like a really strong ultimate and if you do manage to get a kill off with it then it's usually a guaranteed tower destroy.

Crowe StalkerJul 25, 20151 votes

Mordekaiser's Ultimate is very strong at later levels, especially when you get Rylai/Liandry. The fact is at level 6 it's going to do about as much, maybe less damage than your Mace of Spades Isolated does for burst, and again, it's Damage Over Time component can be outsustained with a Potion or Flask. Combining this with his lack of mobility makes it likely that, if anything, you hitting six means a Jungle Gank that you probably won't survive. It's not until level 11 that it becomes a good tool for Duelling.

StrayBalloonJul 25, 20151 votes

I don't think this will change his late game influence. It only encourages an Azir player to play safe. The knock-up promoted riskier plays for greater rewards. It also created situations were you could punish a greedy Azir player.

There's no reason to risk it anymore, because you can't secure kills without the knockup. The CS will flow regardless. So it's just made the laning phase boring.

ChargeItDownMidJul 25, 20151 votes

[deleted]

StrayBalloonJul 25, 20152 votes

I wouldn't consider myself to be a top tier Azir player by any means, but from my own experience I've never power farmed mid laners early in the game as Azir. Having a kill or 2 was what I would consider to be a phenomenal laning phase. The result of which would not equate to, say, Katarina getting a couple kills then going on a murderous rampage through out the rest of the game.

I've never seen an Azir snowball from lane ( I don't watch Pro games either though). But I can't ignore the fact Azir is pretty strong in most phases of the game. This change hasn't weakened him though, only made him more boring.

TheRakkunJul 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The point of the change was to preserve his lategame. Pre-nerf azir was too strong overall because of how much stronger he was than the average champion both early and lategame. Riot was required to either nerf his earlygame or his lategame and they decided to nerf his earlygame. It gives azir a more unique power curve and makes the game as a whole more diverse.

They nerfed his Mid Game, his early game is still as oppressive as it was before.

ShénzhìJul 25, 20151 votes

He does not need knockup. All it does is keep enemies in range of his pets, which they are alrdy good at range.

ponkzyJul 25, 20151 votes

riot nerfs fun champions because those are the only ones people will play. meanwhile champs like annie which are so boring stay broken because nobody except people that have no idea how to play mid lane play her

CenturosJul 25, 20151 votes

The ability itself never made much sense to me. Why does a long-range poke/zone control champ have an ability where he dashes into an enemy for cc and a shield? He's not supposed to BE that close.