give botrk crit chance?

Wisp·May 18, 2016·1 votes·841 views

the recent trinity changes in the pbe made trinity give 0% for a stat which doesn't really fit it. the attack speed doesn't fit the theme of cast a spell and then unload the massive burst. this change will gut champs like cork gp and yasuo since its a core on them the way it is. on the other hand botrk is something that most adc build in tank meta, yet the recurve bow isn't helping as much as a zeal would since most adcs use crits In their paths. I believe riot should push the crit from trinity into other places, since yasuo and gp are very limited and have linear build path with that change

17 Comments

BattleOxeMay 18, 20161 votes

Lol, no... just no That would encourge ADCs to build % DMG on top of 90% crit and 300+ AD. They are strong enough already. And Yasuo doesn't really need buff either (aham... aham... 2 items = 100% crit)

TsugagaMay 18, 20161 votes

Pretty much in every game a GP/Yas crit non stop, I don't really see the need, and I believe champs shouldn't be designed around a luck stat. I'm amazed honestly that crit is part of the game, considering that it adds luck to game, and that's the main reason they removed the dodge stat. I believe crit is only okay when the crit is guaranteed, such as by using a skill/item, or like every x AA by Yas, that way it's predictable. This is how it is with Jax's dodge, there's no luck involved, he activates his skill and dodges all AA for a short time. League is such a massively skill based game, I just don't understand why something as unpredictable as crit chance is still in the game. Comes down to a close fight, I can predict they will die in 1 AA, and I will die in 2 AA, NOPE, killed by 1% crit chance.

League will never be completely skill based as long as crit exists in it's current form.

ZelnickMay 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Pretty much in every game a GP/Yas crit non stop, I don't really see the need, and I believe champs shouldn't be designed around a luck stat. I'm amazed honestly that crit is part of the game, considering that it adds luck to game, and that's the main reason they removed the dodge stat. I believe crit is only okay when the crit is guaranteed, such as by using a skill/item, or like every x AA by Yas, that way it's predictable. This is how it is with Jax's dodge, there's no luck involved, he activates his skill and dodges all AA for a short time. League is such a massively skill based game, I just don't understand why something as unpredictable as crit chance is still in the game. Comes down to a close fight, I can predict they will die in 1 AA, and I will die in 2 AA, NOPE, killed by 1% crit chance.

League will never be completely skill based as long as crit exists in it's current form.

Crit is in the game to give adcs the damage to keep up with mages and tanks but without making their abilities become overpowered, only bonus damage isn't enough. Crit is specifically a predictable mid and late game stat and almost every adc builds 50% crit, sometimes 40% and up to 70% which is reliable enough since you're going to be sending out 1.5 or more attacks a second. The only exceptions are casters like sometimes ezreal, corki and varus.

Irelia BotMay 18, 20162 votes

they could just as easily have a flat % damage stat that is consistent instead of RNG/psudo RNG based.

THe Ashe Rework proved that it can work.

TsugagaMay 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Crit is in the game because otherwise adcs have no real way to carry during late game against the high damage that mages do and the high tankiness that top laners and junglers typically have, only bonus damage isn't enough. Crit is specifically a predictable mid and late game stat and almost every adc builds 50% crit, sometimes 40% and up to 70% which is reliable enough since you're going to be sending out 1.5 or more attacks a second. The only exceptions are casters like sometimes ezreal, corki and varus.

I'm not suggesting to remove crit with no replacement. As the player above stated, crit can be replaced with something predictable without sacrificing the benefit that crit gives. In fact, I'd imagine that even marksmans and crit reliant players would enjoy a more consistent form of damage. How many times have you built crit and relied on it, only to be unlucky and not crit very much? It's happened to I plenty of times.

ZelnickMay 18, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B87zggvt,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2016-05-18T06:44:43.359+0000)

they could just as easily have a flat % damage stat that is consistent instead of RNG/psudo RNG based.

THe Ashe Rework proved that it can work.

But then any tank would surely be annihilated.

{quoted}

I'm not suggesting to remove crit with no replacement. As the player above stated, crit can be replaced with something predictable without sacrificing the benefit that crit gives. In fact, I'd imagine that even marksmans and crit reliant players would enjoy a more consistent form of damage. How many times have you built crit and relied on it, only to be unlucky and not crit very much? It's happened to I plenty of times.

I never pay attention to which attacks crit strike because usually just a single attack never matters, it's the average amount of damage over time that crit strikes affect, and adcs are meant to do damage over time and impose a huge threat without bursting like mages. It's not that crit strikes garuntee anything, it's that your dps could spike at any time to deal massive damage and thus greatly increase your average dps over the duration of a fight. But, guaranteeing double damage all the time would just turn everyone into kogma and yasuo, so in order to make that crit strike only half as effective, they often only make it viable to have a 50% crit chance. Basically what you're suggesting about a flat rate has already been changed into crit strikes, because controlling the probability of that damage is the same thing as controlling the average amount of damage over time.

TsugagaMay 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But then any tank would surely be annihilated.

I never pay attention to which attacks crit strike because usually just a single attack never matters, it's the average amount of damage over time that crit strikes affect, and adcs are meant to do damage over time and impose a huge threat without bursting like mages.

It's still luck based, which I believe doesn't belong in a highly skill based game.

ZelnickMay 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It's still luck based, which I believe doesn't belong in a highly skill based game.

Well, consider that if you gave everyone flat damage, then everyone's abilities would also scale by that huge increase in percent damage. So, in order to allow adcs to deal more damage to keep up with tanks and mages without making their poke skillessly overpowered, Riot has critical strikes. And, controlling the probability of critical strikes allows riot to control the average amount of damage adcs basic attacks deal over time, so adcs basic attacks still deal the same amount of damage on average as the flat increase you're suggesting, but it will prevent something ezreal's poke or sivir's poke from dealing 800+ damage. You don't want to take 800+ damage from some ezreal poke half way across the map do you? Wouldn't you rather they have to take a risk to get you at least? If you gives adcs more flat damage, then they just become burst mages who also have dramatically higher basic attack damage.

ParoeMay 18, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Well, consider that if you gave everyone flat damage, then everyone's abilities would also scale by that huge increase in percent damage. So, in order to allow adcs to deal more damage to keep up with tanks and mages without making their poke skillessly overpowered, Riot has critical strikes. And, controlling the probability of critical strikes allows riot to control the average amount of damage adcs basic attacks deal over time, so adcs basic attacks still deal the same amount of damage on average as the flat increase you're suggesting, but it will prevent something ezreal's poke or sivir's poke from dealing 800+ damage. You don't want to take 800+ damage from some ezreal poke half way across the map do you? Wouldn't you rather they have to take a risk to get you at least?

Why are you talking about abilities when the analogue for crit - % damage increase - only applies to auto attacks?

ZelnickMay 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Why are you talking about abilities when the analogue for crit - % damage increase - only applies to auto attacks?

If you mean percent increases to the basic attack damage, that would force every adc to scale the same way which makes it really hard to balance them in proportion to each other, and without a degree of uncertainty you'd guarantee that anyone who gets ahead ends up staying ahead in a fight. It's more fair to have both adcs deal the same amount of damage most of the time and occasionally spike up than to have someone consistently dealing a lot of damage all the time because that allows room for strategizing short trades over long trades on either side. Percent increase is a lot, it's not to be underestimated, it would be far more effective than crit strikes and it would allow people to guarantee massive damage too early on in the game. But, to build off of the more fair strategizing, if you know you lack crit strikes you want short trades on any target to reduce the probability of getting hit by a crit strike. If you know you have them, you want long trades on one target to maximize the probability of landing crit strikes and killing a target.

ParoeMay 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If you mean percent increases to the base attack damage, that would force every adc to scale the same way which not every adc is suppose to do, and without a degree of uncertainty you'd guarantee that anyone who gets ahead ends up staying ahead in a fight. It's more fair to have both adcs deal the same amount of damage most of the time then occasionally spike up than to have someone consistently dealing massive damage all the time because that allows room for strategizing short trades over long trades on either side.

ADC builds are already homogenized. This change would do nothing but make ADC damage scale linearly, and make them less snowbally.

You also realize that in their inception ADCs were meant to be objective takers and seigers? Not carries? AD itemization was just so good that they killed APCs easily. The reason crit exists at all is because marksmen threw the largest hissyfit in riots history because mages out damaged marksmen, and tank itemization was buffed so marksmen needed a team to support them in order to take down the tanks or else the tanks CC would let the enemy team kill them. For two seasons ADCs actually did more damage than APCs until the very late game when APCs had 900+AP, and ADCs whined about not being able to four shot tanks so ADC itemization specifically was and has been continuously buffed ever since.

ZelnickMay 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

ADC builds are already homogenized. This change would do nothing but make ADC damage scale linearly, and make them less snowbally.

You also realize that in their inception ADCs were meant to be objective takers and seigers? Not carries? AD itemization was just so good that they killed APCs easily. The reason crit exists at all is because marksmen threw the largest hissyfit in riots history because mages out damaged marksmen, and tank itemization was buffed so marksmen needed a team to support them in order to take down the tanks or else the tanks CC would let the enemy team kill them. For two seasons ADCs actually did more damage than APCs until the very late game when APCs had 900+AP, and ADCs whined about not being able to four shot tanks so ADC itemization specifically was and has been continuously buffed ever since.

ADC builds are defanitely not homogeneous this season, there's lots of different builds now which is what they wanted. I don't think I've ever seen an adc 4-shot a tank in the last two seasons at least. Crit strikes exist to give marksman a fair way to deal average damage over time that, in a team fight can be just as effective as a mage. On the plus side, this allows them to take objectives effectively and also have relevance in a team fight, but on the down side, they can't annihilate a target instantly like a mage can and usually don't have CC. A mage also has relevance in both team fights and objectives too, just in different ways. Riot doesn't want the game to be decided just by team comp, so it makes sense to give every kind of champion relevance in every part of the game.

You know what else? You realize any champion can go in any lane right? I can have soraka jungle, caitlyn mid, maokai adc, elise top, but we don't see soraka jungle much nowadays, the game changes.

ParoeMay 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

ADC builds are defanitely not homogeneous this season, there's lots of different builds now which is what they wanted. I don't think I've ever seen an adc 4-shot a tank in the last two seasons at least. Crit strikes exist to give marksman a fair way to deal average damage over time that, in a team fight can be just as effective as a huge burst of damage. This allows them to take objectives effectively and also have relevance in a team fight. A mage also has relevance in both team fights and objectives too, just in different ways.

You know what else? You realize any champion can go in any lane right? I can have soraka jungle, caitlyn mid, maokai adc, elise top, but we don't see soraka jungle much nowadays, the game changes.

in low ELO anything works. But the meta... meta... because it works best.

Also... MSI finals: _Lucian Vs sivir: item 3006 item 3031 item 3156 item 3072 item 3508 item 3087 item 3009 item 3036 _Kalista vs sivir: item 3140 item 3153 item 1055 item 3085 Lucian vs ezreal: item 3033 item 3094 item 1038 item 3035 item 3042 item 3025 item 3158

"not homogenized". If that were true we wouldnt be seeing the same items pop up so frequently.

the only greatly different build was ezreal, as hes an AD caster and not an ADC.

ZelnickMay 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

in low ELO anything works. But the meta... meta... because it works best.

Also... MSI finals: _Lucian Vs sivir: _Kalista vs sivir: Lucian vs ezreal:

"not homogenized". If that were true we wouldnt be seeing the same items pop up so frequently.

the only greatly different build was ezreal, as hes an AD caster and not an ADC.

Well firstly you're still ignoring that its all circumstantial, that the builds for some champs change dramatically in different situations. And secondly, you're probably only looking at a few builds from a few top people that have been copied by lower elo people after only a few games in LCS. Even though I "should," I don't use essence reaver or static shiv or maw or bloodthirster with sivir but still have what lolking tells me is a 60% win rate with her this season.

ParoeMay 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well firstly you're still ignoring that its all circumstantial, that the builds for some champs change dramatically in different situations. And secondly, you're probably only looking at a few builds from a few top people that have been copied by lower elo people after only a few games in LCS. Even though I "should," I don't use essence reaver or static shiv or maw or bloodthirster with sivir but still have what lolking tells me is a 60% win rate with her this season.

? No those are the actual items from ADCs (not counting pinks) from the MSI finals.

ZelnickMay 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

? No those are the actual items from ADCs (not counting pinks) from the MSI finals.

Right, but Riot and most people apparently don't know that because most people build those, they are still stuck on the common builds from last season because of how often they were played.

TsugagaMay 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well, consider that if you gave everyone flat damage, then everyone's abilities would also scale by that huge increase in percent damage. So, in order to allow adcs to deal more damage to keep up with tanks and mages without making their poke skillessly overpowered, Riot has critical strikes. And, controlling the probability of critical strikes allows riot to control the average amount of damage adcs basic attacks deal over time, so adcs basic attacks still deal the same amount of damage on average as the flat increase you're suggesting, but it will prevent something ezreal's poke or sivir's poke from dealing 800+ damage. You don't want to take 800+ damage from some ezreal poke half way across the map do you? Wouldn't you rather they have to take a risk to get you at least? If you gives adcs more flat damage, then they just become burst mages who also have dramatically higher basic attack damage.

As the player above I said, the crit replacement would only apply to auto attacks.