A suggestion for removing RNG from Crits

MrBuffington··18 votes·3,018 views
Can we finally phase crit's RNGesus out of the game?

[I wanted to link KSHarrison's original discussion since it's a fantastic thread]

#Background

So I just found myself back at some of Morello's comments on crits, and I wanted to take a crack at a suggestion for changing crit, and also hopefully increase visibility on the topic since I think it's an important system change.

There are three major things I took away from Morello’s comment:

  1. Crits just “might kill you”; they don’t really create interesting gameplay
  2. Crits are most problematic in lane, less so in teamfights
  3. Carries (of the right-clicking variety) desire a multiplier for their damage to reach explosive levels

(Note: I’ve seen some suggestions pop up from time to time about changing crit into some more consistent scalar. The problem with a flat increase is that it won’t allow for a more exponential power curve, which I think is more desirable for the game. Someone else before may have suggested my idea, though I haven’t seen it/don’t remember seeing it)

Thanks to Arkblue for linking me to xDemon's thread, another great read. It's effectively the same idea, though from what I read, it has a slightly different implementation system.

#The Idea

My idea is to implement an AD ratio on basic attacks, and have the crit multiplier increase that ratio. What this means is, your auto attacks have a 100% AD ratio at the beginning of the game, and for every 1% crit, your AD ratio on auto attacks increases by 1%. This is different than just increasing your attack damage; similar to how you can have 100 AP but an 80% AP ratio, and thus only do 80 damage even though you ‘paid for’ 100 AP.

Let’s look at a scenario: EDIT: Reformatted a graphs for greater clarity. Champions with greater AD benefit more from this "crit", thus the scaling is multiplicative https://i.imgur.com/zRIpG1G.png https://i.imgur.com/yq7ElST.png

  • Champion A has 100 AD and 0% crit (ie. 100% AD ratio on auto attacks); they do 100 damage per auto attack (not taking into account resistances)
  • Champion B has 100 AD and 50% crit (150% AD on auto attacks); they do 150 damage per auto attack
  • Champion C has 200 AD and 50% crit; they do 300 damage per auto
  • Champion D has 200 AD and 100% crit; they do 400 damage per auto
  • Champion E has 100 AD and 100% crit; they do 200 damage per auto

What this does is provide two linear scalars for a champion’s auto attacks to scale with; attack damage and crit chance. Taken alone, they don’t do much, so that 1% crit rune increases your damage by a very small amount (below 100 AD, it’s worse than a flat AD mark, higher than 100 AD, it’s very slightly better). However, in conjunction, they work to increase your damage multiplicatively, as seen with the increase between champion C and D (50% increase in stat resulting in a 100 damage increase). Note DPS might actually be less under this change, so it might be necessary to make crit an easier stat to buy to keep consistent with DPS in the live game.

#Pros

  • This mitigates the impact of early game crit, while still providing a multiplicative source of damage amplification for carries.
  • Champions also have a more gradual power curve; instead of Yasuo suddenly being at the point where he’s dealing double damage all the time, he gets more incremental increases in damage that grow exponentially as he accumulates more AD and crit
  • Bruiser type champions won’t benefit as much since they cannot afford to buy as much crit chance as carries; crit only becomes valuable with either large amounts of crit or high amounts of AD, neither of which bruiser type champions can afford to buy a lot of. This eliminates a balance concern where this multiplicative damage should be more reserved for carries who dedicate their entire build towards damage, instead of someone like Critplank getting a lucky shot off in lane and winning based off that.
  • Additionally, this type of change will not eliminate the value of buying AD on most champions, as their abilities still scale with AD. As seen with the above scenario as well, Champion E has as much crit as Champion D, but is dealing less damage than Champion C because they have lower base AD.
  • It opens up alternative build paths; buying low amounts of crit early feels better than it does in live since it’s providing at least some consistent damage increase.
  • It adds another lever for game balance. Yay levers :P
  • I think it’s actually easier than some suggestions to implement in game; you don’t have to worry about rebalancing all champions AD ratios since this only impacts basic attacks (or attacks that can crit, ie Gangplank Q will also scale with this crit modifier in-some-way-to-be-determined; I think either directly benefitting the existing AD ratio or adding an overall multiplier that includes the base damage, to be more true to the live game. Abilities like Pantheon Q are unaffected since they're already guaranteed). AP scaling champions don’t need to worry since they just keep their 100% AD ratio on basic attacks, same as before

#Cons

(I can’t think of many cons, but if you come up with some leave a comment and I’ll edit the post)

  • DPS might actually be lower, as mentioned before, crit values might have to be adjusted to bring things up to par with the live game.
  • Junglerboy16 brought up that we might lose some cool crit animations; they also brought up that the animation could just be added to their rotation of attack animations.
  • This system doesn't really allow for any more gameplay around the damage multiplier, only more consistency. I think overall a system that allows for interesting gameplay is preferable.

#Other interesting bits

  • I’m sort of wondering if over 100% crit should be allowed; this would allow for even more exponential scaling in some cases, but overall I think it could open up some cool build paths.

  • Going with above, what if Ashe’s passive, instead of stacking Focus, added bonus crit, up to 100%? A few options with this; First, same as it is now, once it stacks to 100%, it is used on her next auto, with extra crit chance reducing the amount of stacks she needs. She remains basically the same. Second, instead of the extra crit reducing the amount of stacks she needs, it’s a 100% bonus crit chance overall, meaning with extra crit chance, she can hit multipliers over 100% crit chance; her empowered auto is going to hit like a truck, but it has to reset back down to 0, meaning there’s longer down time between when she uses that crazy powerful auto. Third, the crit chance is continuously used as it generates, meaning her autos in lane deal slightly more damage overall, but it’s more difficult get to that 100% crit damage as before unless you’re not attacking at all. The last option is debatable whether she can charge over 100% crit.

#Suggested ideas from the comments

{quoted} Here's the same suggestion I made: Crit animations. : the % crit is the % chance of your attack animation being replaced with a crit animation. Champions interaction would need a retune champ by champ.

For example, is intuitive how to balance Yasuo without moving him from where he is, less so with Tryndamere who also relies on crit to reduce his E cooldown.

#Thanks for reading!

Let me know what you guys think!

65 Comments

Teridax685 votes

I fully agree with removing the randomness of crit, and changing it to an autoattack multiplier would be the cleanest and simplest transition to a better model. I think the main reason Riot hasn't switched to this, aside from it not being top-priority, is that they're looking for a way to potentially add gameplay to the mechanic if possible (i.e. something that would allow for explosive autoattack damage while remaining predictable). Whatever happens, a constant multiplier will always be the safe and effective option.

Thoughts on this:

  • I don't think crit animations would be much of a problem: either they could appear randomly in a champion's attack rotation (you could even have its frequency scale with crit chance), or they could instead be repurposed as special attacks when applying Spellblade-empowered autoattacks, which a lot of users have been calling for (some AP champions have awesome crit animations that we never get to see ;_; ).
  • Ashe probably needs a new passive altogether, but if we were to follow the model of a flat multiplier to the letter she could just gain Focus stacks up to 100, whereupon she'd deal guaranteed double damage. I'm not sure if an AA damage multiplier would really need a cap (it becomes inefficient really quickly), though if it did, 100 or 150 would be a good number.
  • I think this would be a good reason to completely get rid of crit damage. The stat is already relatively redundant (your attacks that deal more damage deal even more damage), and is way too unreliable in practically any situation, bar purchasing item 3031 . This would also allow the item to have some other kind of interesting autoattack damage enhancer, perhaps one that would make it more than just a stat stick.
  • This is a bit farther down the line, but I think this would allow for much smoother balancing on any crit-related champion. Tryndamere, for example, has a super-unstable laning phase due to his extreme dependence on his early crit, and can often win or lose his lane based on random chance. With reliable crit, he could have a reliable boost to his autoattacks, as well as a non-random decrease to his E cooldown (it goes down with every crit, currently). He might need a bigger rework, but changes like these would make balancing him a lot easier. Yasuo might also find other ways to deal reliable yet strong autoattack damage (with the above changes, his Intent passive would resume to a 180% increase to crit on autoattacks and a 150% increase on his Q).
  • This change would perhaps make crit more palatable on assassins and bruisers, even if it would still be best on marksmen and melee carries: currently, crit is way too unreliable to be good in small amounts, so it only becomes worth buying if you commit to it with several items. With its unreliability gone, other champions who deal autoattack-based damage but don't necessarily want to commit to it would be able to access crit a lot more easily. I think this is a good thing (autoattacks space out ability-based burst and allow for more potential damage, but also more opportunity for the opponent to react), but it may require rebalancing some AD casters in order to accomodate this new source of damage.
MrBuffington2 votes

I would be all for a multiplicative damage scaling that adds gameplay; I just couldn't think of one :P so I just went with this more conservative option. I don't have much to add to your other comments; I agree with pretty much everything. Thanks!

EDIT: I've also seen suggested on other threads (like KSHarrison's) of having crit be some sort of charge system, like Caitlyn/Ashe passive, this way crits are more controllable. This adds some gameplay but I don't know if it's the system Riot wants to go with. I generally like the more conservative option just because it does allow for interesting builds for other champions, like you mentioned how other champions might build crit since it's more beneficial at smaller amounts.

Earl Eulrich3 votes

Not sure if starting it n Sunday Night is good for this discussion, but i´m thankfull you at least try to keep it alive for now. Hopefully Riot will answer sometime soon.

MrBuffington1 votes

Haha, perhaps not, but I just had the idea after your comment to Morello RiotScruffy (somehow got the two confused, idk) linked me back to the original thread; I felt like writing it up while the idea was still fresh in my head. Hopefully it won't disappear into oblivion :P

EDIT: while you're here, any thoughts on the ideas?

Earl Eulrich1 votes

while you're here, any thoughts on the ideas?

mh, went straight to bed as it had already been 4am in Europe by then.

for me personally I think the best way to adress the problem for now would be to switch to what Harrison called

"Passive: Weapon Efficiency: amplifies the damage of auto attacks by a percentage of total AD. This bonus damage does not affect towers."

as it would be really easy to implement, not costing too many ressources this preseason. If it doesn´t feel entirely satisfying they can then make bigger chances next preseason, but I think it would be a good starting point - much more preferable than both carries rushing IE and then gambling it out whom will luck more with his 25-26%critchance.

Khristophorus already had a good go about crit-animations a few days back: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/7VcwVkv8-crit-doesnt-need-to-be-replaced-with-a-new-system-check-this-out.

MrBuffington1 votes

Is this the same idea that I have?

Earl Eulrich1 votes

pretty much.

ImHerVoice1 votes

whats wrong with sunday? All of us adults don't have to be at work so we're online until 1 am or 12 am

Earl Eulrich1 votes

All of us adults

yea well...I personally had to work the last 5 weekends, and there are quite a lot of professions that "suffer" from having to be available every day of the week - just saying. And Activity on the Boards is usally very low on sunday, especially red-activity. So that´s what I had been afraid of mostly...as discussions started in a low activtiy-window tend to vanish unseen more often than if you start them during "primetime".

ImHerVoice1 votes

well im a cook at a bar thats a 10 minute drive from my house And weekends I'm a part time dish washer at a breakfast/lunch resturant in town. so I'm up until the kitchen closed at 10 PM regardless of wanting to be or not lol. I've always found time for gaming usually 1-2 hours a day A month ago though I didnt get to do any gaming for 3 months straight because I was working 13 hour shifts and was just after work. The best I'd do is watch a video to fall asleep on youtube.

junglerboy162 votes

I really like this idea more than just making crit "AD Rabbadon's" for a few reasons:

  • It means that there isn't any RNG left in it.
  • It means that Riot finally could have a more consistent way to scale ranged vs melee champions.
  • It doesn't leave crit as a bland stat stick.

The RNG removal is obviously the whole point, so I'll skip that. What I mean by a consistent way to scale ranged vs melee, is that now Riot can have the extra lever of being able to tune a champion's base AD RATIO in addition to their base AD. This means, that to help AD carries still scale well into late game, they could have higher base stats to begin with, and then have crit scale harder on them. For this to work though, your new crit scaling would have to be something along the lines of "increases base auto attack AD ratio by X%". what this means is that it would scale similarly to how attack speed scales now (crit could even become a champion per level statistic with that change). This could let champions decide whether their auto attack damage will be increased best by straight AD (High base AD ratio), AS (High base attack speed) or Crit (high base AD).

For an example, say a champ starts with 50 AD, but their AD ratio on attacks is only 70%. If they buy 20% crit, they will increase their AD ratio on AAs to 84% AD. In this situation, Infinity edge would become the Rabbadon's of Crit (buy IE, and in addition to the crit it gives, it increases your crit by 50%) so if that same person had a 25% crit item, and then got a 25% crit IE, the 50% bonus from IE would give him a total of 75% crit ((25+25)x1.5=75), so that would increase that champion's AA AD ratio from 70% to 122.5%. I personally would be inclined towards not having any sort of cap on the percent of crit you can get, but a hard cap on the AD ratio attainable by any champion would be good (say 250% AD ratio on AAs, which is equivalent to having 100% crit chance and an IE now).

In contrast, champions that don't build crit (like tanks) would start out at relatively high AD ratios on auto attacks, like between 100-110%.

For anyone concerned about losing crit animations (some are pretty awesome, like Sion's kicking animation), they could be an indication for when a champion has reached a certain AD ratio on their attacks (like around 150-175%) and instead of happening every attack, simply becomes one of there normal attack animations.

This is probably the best Idea for crit rework that I have seen.

MrBuffington1 votes

Thanks for the kind words; I also like the idea since adding a modifiable AD ratio to basic attacks adds a tuning lever for controlling a champions damage between their basic attacks and abilities; of course this could probably just be controlled by using different types of scaling or controlling base damages, but perhaps smarter people could come up with unique uses for this.

junglerboy161 votes

It also seems like it would be the best way to handle the issue since some abilities can crit. For those, the crit multiplier would just increase the AD ratio of the ability. Of course, these changes would all require huge amounts of tuning and rebalancing but maybe Riot will do this one for next preseason?

MrBuffington1 votes

Yea, I don't think we can expect a change to crit anytime soon; seems like a pretty big system overhaul, I'm more posting this to keep the conversation going :)

Knight Devout2 votes

Nice idea OP, was suggested before tho. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/QBHOYhmA-new-system-dexterity-replacing-critical-chance

Here's the same suggestion I made: Crit animations. : the % crit is the % chance of your attack animation being replaced with a crit animation. Champions interaction would need a retune champ by champ.

For example, is intuitive how to balance Yasuo without moving him from where he is, less so with Tryndamere who also relies on crit to reduce his E cooldown.

MrBuffington1 votes

Thanks for letting me know, I'll add this thread to the original post!

Talamare1 votes

I prefer the idea in which you Double or Triple Critical CHANCE in basically all forms Reduce Critical Damage to +25% Introduce Critical Damage items Crit Chance excess of 100% rolls into Critical Damage

Like this, its fine if you have early Crit Chance, since they will happen more or less consistently enough, except without devastating breaking effects Mid Game would involve your damage becoming steady 100% Crit chance Late game would be stacking Attack damage and Crit damage to maximize your your DPS

MrBuffington1 votes

What would be the benefit of this over the system I proposed? I really liked Morello's argument that crit chance doesn't provide gameplay, just occasionally more damage; my idea doesn't really provide gameplay, just more consistent damage, but I think the consistency is nice.

With your idea I think it actually delays powerspikes until even later in the game, since you have to stack up on both crit chance (albeit it's easier to do this with your change) and crit damage, while it still being somewhat RNG when you get crits (until you hit 100% crit chance). Late game, attack damage and crit damage kind of become exactly what I'm suggesting above.

Linna Excel1 votes

I think I'd change crit into a chance to ignore a portion of the other target's armor on that hit. That way you'd get a controllable boost of damage. The kicker is the %chance to get a crit would never go up after your first item, but the amount of armor ignored would go up.

MrBuffington1 votes

Wouldn't this just screw tanks even more? I think Riot has already mentioned how items like LW are a problem...

Linna Excel1 votes

Depends on how they do it. Flat damage, percent ignored, etc, as well as what they decide to balance around.

If you ask me, LW is only a problem because the other team has a nausu with item 3075 item 3068 item 3143 and if you don't get a LW, your AAs are just going to bounce off of him and he's going to one hit you with his Q because your top let him farm a crapton of stacks. Now imagine if the other team also has a maokai or sejuani jungler and a leona support. In that case you desperately need something like a LW because the other team has too much tank (and peel) for yours to deal with.

Then there are cases when your mid is AD and suddenly the other team doesn't have to worry about building MR and can double up on armor. It's not pleasant when the other team is too tanky for you to make a dent in.

Then there's the real b*tch about playing ADC specifically: if you get shut down in the early game, your team is screwed. At least LW is cheap enough you can rush it if you are behind or the other team is really tanky and that'll let you do something in a team fight.

Sure right now tanks (specifically jungle tanks) might have issues, but they aren't the only ones. Tanky teams have a lot of crowd control (usually) so that means the more tank they get, the more CC to protect their carries they get. Next thing you know, your team gets CC locked and one of your carries dies because of it and there's nothing you can do to counterplay.

MrBuffington1 votes

I guess my question is, if that's the case, why not just replace crit entirely with armor pen? Also, with your first comment, if the % crit chance never increases, how would this deal with the problem of RNG in crits? I mean sure, it'd mitigate some damage, but you get seriously diminishing return on the gold you invest in crit, because you can't increase your chances of critting and all it helps you do is occasionally hit a tanky target harder than you normally would.

Linna Excel1 votes

Good questions.

if that's the case, why not just replace crit entirely with armor pen?

This would be a viable option. My biggest problem with crits in LOL is that you can get a freaky high crit change. At some point it is simply a raw damage boost (Yasuo with item 3031 +item 3087 ). So there are 3 ways to go about it. Raw damage boost like you suggested, crit chance as it works in the game now, or armor reduction. A lot of people would like RNG gone so the two viable options are a raw boost (a DFG effect) or allow your damage to approach but not touch true damage. However my objections aside, even at lower levels of crit chance as is it, that one lucky hit early on will win you a fight (which morello doesn't like).

As a counter point to your question, why not remove crit chance and replace it with a raw AD boost and lower AD ratios to match?

Also, with your first comment, if the % crit chance never increases, how would this deal with the problem of RNG in crits?

They'd still be a problem, but it's a little more complicated than all RNG is bad. In most games crits are either something you can't count on (natural 20 rolled) or require skill (head shot). My own problem with crits are they are too assured as double damage so of course everyone is going to build it. Generally uncertainty is good in sports or competitions as an anti-snowball effect. People winning want certainty.

If crit chance was balanced right, the people who are winning wouldn't want it as they'd want the certainty of raw damage, but people who are behind would like crit more because they need a powerful but unlikely event. I think the problem of crit as it stands is no one wants to decrease the uncertainty in a match. It's really a great tool for underdogs to have counterplay but it's balanced right now so that it'd be stupid for anyone not to get it.

So I'd want the problem of RNG in crits, but I'd bend it so it is a mechanic more for counterplay and comebacks than something you'd want to do if you were even or ahead. Basically I think that RNG can be a good problem to have if balanced correctly.

I mean sure, it'd mitigate some damage, but you get seriously diminishing return on the gold you invest in crit, because you can't increase your chances of critting and all it helps you do is occasionally hit a tanky target harder than you normally would.

If you ask me, part of the job of the ADC is to shred tanks. Basically when you are playing right as an ADC, the thing you want to do is limit how much damage the other team can do to you. That means staying back so only 1 other enemy champ can get close to use. Usually that other enemy champ is going to be the tank. So in a team fight, chances are your first order of business will be to dispatch the enemy tank because that's the safest play for you and you are the best person on the team to deal with them.

Your other goal as an ADC is to push objectives, like towers. Towers have a lot of armor and health.

So if we want to get rid of Crit as a RNG (which is an option), since Crit is an ADC thing primarily, it should be focused on what their tasks in a teamfight are. That's where crit as armor shred comes into play.

Now put those things together.

  1. Crits are rare and balanced so the underdogs want them, but a team that's even or ahead wouldn't.
  2. If you are the underdog, that means the other team is probably going to be beefier than your team so you are going to need more oomph to counterplay the other team, but at some kind of cost. It can't be expensive either because your butt got shut down and if it were expensive and desirable item 3031, the guy who is ahead would want it and can afford it faster than you can.
  3. The easiest guy on the team to shut down is also the guy who's primary responsibility is to attack the beefiest targets and objectives the other team has.
  4. Crits that are focused on underdogs and taking out armored targets means the underdogs have an option for getting rid of the other team's tanky initiator or the guy peeling for their carries.
  5. You kill their initiator or their peeler, your team has a chance to win a team fight. Thus the underdogs have a counterplay option.

So what's really wrong with RNG? I don't think it's RNG, but the powerspike you get overall.

My biggest problem with IE is the first person to gets it has a much easier time to snowball the lane. Considering how costly it is, the faster you get it, the more you are already stomping the other ADC. Generally, getting stomped as the ADC means your team is going to lose hard unless your jungler and mid can gank bot enough to carry your butt. The fact that it is a rush item for most ADCs only exaggerates its massive power boost for the guy who's already ahead. It's not so much the RNG that's the issue with IE, it's the massive powerspike for the guy who's winning the lane. Let's face it, if the other guy comes back to lane with an IE and all you have is 2 dorans and a BF sword, you are screwed. There's not much counterplay to that situation.

Then once the guy ahead has his IE, he rushes a SS for even more crit. Suddenly a huge burst of damage that was originally rare or required a bit of skill has a much lower uncertainty than it was originally intended to have. That's the problem of crit, it's something that's supposed to be uncertain that's been jammed into a slot of too high certainty. It's like having a weapon in D&D that gives you critical damage on a roll of 15 or higher (and no need to confirm that crit either). That would just be broken.

That's kind of where LOL's RNG is. There's too much damage for too little uncertainty. If LOL wants to keep high % crits, then they probably need to weaken them from being double damage (or more with IE). It's not the RNG itself, its the high % plus double damage.

MrBuffington1 votes

As a counter point to your question, why not remove crit chance and replace it with a raw AD boost and lower AD ratios to match?

Morello believes (and I'm inclined to agree) that players want a multiplicative damage boost, rather than a flat boost; Increasing the AD ratio accomplishes this in a way that just increasing raw AD does not (I've posted a few graphs that hopefully illustrate this).

Basically I think that RNG can be a good problem to have if balanced correctly.

Morello also generally agrees with this (again, I am inclined to agree), but the problem with crits imo is that they don't actually provide counterplay, they just have some chance to deal more damage. There's no play that influences this, since it's a random event. RNG can be desirable even in a game if it allows for more gameplay, but I don't see this being the case with crit as it is in the live environment.

The MechE1 votes

Here's an idea:

change crit to % increased damage. BAM

No wordy garbage just 1 sentence to explain.

MrBuffington3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The MechE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=B17k2KO7,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2014-12-15T04:19:44.417+0000) Here's an idea:

change crit to % increased damage. BAM

No wordy garbage just 1 sentence to explain.

..I mean...that's basically what I'm saying? The idea is supposed to be simple since I think it's an easy way to address the issue and it could be more easily implemented into the game.

Problem is:

  1. I don't know what you want to increase the damage on. Autos? Abilities? You don't specify
  2. I don't understand the reasoning behind your suggestion
  3. I don't understand any implications of your suggestion
  4. I don't understand how your idea could be implemented in the game
  5. I don't understand why you want to implement this idea into the game

etc.

Basically there's no reason for me to take you seriously. So...

The MechE1 votes

{quoted} ..I mean...that's basically what I'm saying? The idea is supposed to be simple since I think it's an easy way to address the issue and it could be more easily implemented into the game.

Problem is:

  1. I don't know what you want to increase the damage on. Autos? Abilities? You don't specify
  2. I don't understand the reasoning behind your suggestion
  3. I don't understand any implications of your suggestion
  4. I don't understand how your idea could be implemented in the game
  5. I don't understand why you want to implement this idea into the game

etc.

Basically there's no reason for me to take you seriously. So...

Okay, % increased damage on auto attacks. BAM! 1 sentence and it gets the point across. Heck, you can just make it % increased damage on on-hit attacks since technically on-hit spells can crit too.

MrBuffington2 votes

Still missing the other 4+ points, which I think are valuable. Not to mention that certain champion abilities also benefit from crit

EDIT: Ezreal's Mystic Shot applies on-hit effects. It cannot critically strike. Taken from the wiki: "Critical strike is not considered an on-hit effect."

WiegrafOfValor1 votes

I think crit should be allow to exist, but not the way it is right now. I think you have a good concept right there, but you don't understand the source of the problem. That is building DPS is the only viable goal right now, everyone is melting and the tf is about who is safer and who was the better burst.

MrBuffington2 votes

I think the issue that most people, myself included, have with crit is that it's very inconsistent (at low amounts). I sort of outlined Morello's views near the beginning of the post; carries need or want some sort of multiplicative damage scaling that feels good late game, but the way crit works currently allows for some abuse cases at low values of crit in lane. Also in general there are teamfights that are determined by which ADC crits more, which doesn't seem to reflect the skill of the player moreso than luck of the random number generator.

Phife1 votes

Crit is not a problem, just build armor in lane... it reduces the damage by the amount you get crit by to normal auto attack damage! WOAHHHH

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/aNpmxHE5-people-who-want-to-remove-crit

junglerboy163 votes

The problem isn't that it makes AAs hurt (ofc we all know to build Armor), the problem is that it is random and inconsistent.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

I am beginning to like the general gist of this idea.

Two things: A) Pro: IE would get more interesting - with that system of yours, you don't need a Crit damage stat, and have room for another interesting effect for Infinity Edge.

B) Con: Clarity - you'd need a part somewhere in your HUD that told you your exact damage-per-autoattack.

junglerboy163 votes

If they went for a game wide redux on crit, then they could probably afford to add a little AD ratio indicator next to your passive on your skill bar. They made an extra item slot for trinkets, so this probably wouldn't be too difficult.

MrBuffington1 votes

Yea this is pretty much my response; you have to consult your skill bar to see how much damage you do with spells, it shouldn't be different to see damage on auto attacks (additionally it could be added to the champion info in the bottom left/right corner, in parentheses next to your AD or something)

Phife1 votes

{quoted} If they went for a game wide redux on crit, then they could probably afford to add a little AD ratio indicator next to your passive on your skill bar. They made an extra item slot for trinkets, so this probably wouldn't be too difficult.

Great, so now we aren't actually play a game and adjusting our playstyle as things change now i can just use math to estimate when i should go in and i will know if i win the 1v1 / 2v2 ...w/e

SO MUCH FUN!

MEMEME6701 votes

OP, I'm going to make this short because it's honestly very simple.

This (or a variation of this) is suggested probably once a month at the least.

And yet, Riot has not implemented it yet. Why might that be, you ask?

I can't know for sure, but here's what you haven't addressed yet that might matter.

  1. People get angry over change, even when it's good.

Changing this will cause backlash, and the backlash will likely be somewhat big (almost everyone knows of and uses crit, whereas when you change a champion 'for the worse' only the people who like that champion have the potential to be angry.)

Note that you would get especially hard backlash from Trynd players, as losing crit nerfs his passive and E.

  1. Some of your 'pros' aren't factual(Your first two bullet points and the second half of your third).

The average dps of any given champion with any given AD and Crit % is going to be the exact same with the change and without it.

For example.

Current System: 100 ad 10% crit = 9 shots 100 damage + 1 shot 200 damage, so an average of 110 damage per shot.

Your System: 100 ad 10% crit = 110 damage per shot.

  1. Crit is extremely easy to understand for newer players, especially as it's a concept carried over many games. This is harder to understand.

  2. Making it different for certain champions will make it not only much harder to learn, but probably break the game. It makes no sense for me to buy a 10% damage increase and get 7.5%.

Any ranged carry put at 90% or less is unplayable (they lose 5-7.5% total dps once they have a crit item. This is a bit like having Corki's passive, except healing your opponent instead of damaging them.)

Any ranged carry put at 110% or more is instantly broken (It just becomes a weird version of Corki Passive on your character.)

Melee carries you MIGHT be able to put at 110 or 115% assuming you make them deal normal damage to jungle monsters (because that makes sense.) However, it won't change anything, just make them way stupider. (You just have less of a time window to CC yi before he kills your team, it doesn't actually change what you do to beat him.)

Knight Devout1 votes

People get angry over change, even when it's good.

Hitler was a better ruler than Gengis Khan. Crit is a better mechanic than dodge.

You guess the rest.

Crit is extremely easy to understand for newer players, especially as it's a concept carried over many games. This is harder to understand.

Most of those games have innate crit. I was baffled when i found out that adc in this game start with literally nothing. I still adapted.

In short, the only reason why riot didn't implement it yet, is because they need to figure the kink about how this will affect champions with crit interactions, laning phase, and lategame .

IMHO, it would have some implications in lanephase where a Tristana with IE is now reliably increasing their damage by 37,5% of each auto, instead of throwing maybe a 250% crit every 4 autoattacks (depending on the mood of the RNGod).

MEMEME6701 votes

Hitler was a better ruler than Gengis Khan. Crit is a better mechanic than dodge.

This has no reasonable relation to LoL. Most people are pretty okay with crit.

In short, the only reason why riot didn't implement it yet, is because they need to figure the kink about how this will affect champions with crit interactions, laning phase, and lategame .

That can't be true. Because on average, it won't. The average dps of any champion with any given attack damage, attack speed, and crit chance, is the same with both systems. Thus, on average it changes nothing.

Knight Devout1 votes

Yesterday my friend went 0/3 in lane phase as adc, died a couple times after that, and then won a 1v1 against the enemy adc standing still because his Infinity Edge landed 3 crits in a row without other crit items.

1/16 chance.

But hey, keep believing that lane phase and midgame teamfights will be unchanged.

You are right about "crit being this way!" in other games. What you are ignoring tho: In games like mmorpg you usually crit even with spells, abilities, HEALS, everything.

That's because the occurrence of crit was diluted over a long, long,long time window. Back when I played wow , I remember having a healer with 55% crit chance. And that's because , over the hundreds, if not thousands(NO JOKES , in fights longer than 10 minutes that was normal), of heals I would output in a bossfight, the rng components would be phased out.

Now, one thing is a Arcane Mage critting a arcane missile with no cd for 150 times against Marrowgar, one thing is a Mesmer critting with spatial surge that hits 3 times in a second, and another new level is an adc with 20% crit that decides lane fights over 5 hits.

MEMEME6701 votes

On average means, everyones average dps at any given point in the game is unchanged. That's all. And it's true.

MrBuffington1 votes

People get angry over change, even when it's good.

I don't see how this matters if it results in a healthier game. People get upset over change, and people get upset over lack of change. Game health isn't only guided by player feelings.

The average dps of any given champion with any given AD and Crit % is going to be the exact same with the change and without it.

That would be the hope, but I think Riot's crit system isn't purely random; I remember reading this from a Red but can't remember where. I think the number of crits you get is actually higher than your crit chance suggests, but I'm not sure. In any case, the goal of these and many other changes that have been suggested by the community is to allow for similar damage output, but for that output to be more consistent, so that a duel is more a result of intelligent decisions on the player's part and less to do with whoever happens to crit more often in a particular duel.

MEMEME6701 votes

I don't see how this matters if it results in a healthier game.

Riot has said they can't change lee sin, even if they feel it would be correct to do so, because certain regions feel like he's fine, love him, and just want more champs at that level, not for them to bring him down.

That would be the hope, but I think Riot's crit system isn't purely random;

It's psuedo-RNG, but the expected # of crits over any reasonable duration is the same. It works by starting your crit % lower than the stated value, and then scaling it up every attack you make without critting, and resetting it on a crit.

This makes long streaks less likely, but the average DPS the same.

the goal of these and many other changes that have been suggested by the community...

I know this, and it's a fine goal.

But Riot hasn't implemented it yet, despite seeing it on the forums countless times. If you want to actually get anywhere, you need to find out why.

MrBuffington1 votes

Riot has said they can't change lee sin, even if they feel it would be correct to do so, because certain regions feel like he's fine, love him, and just want more champs at that level, not for them to bring him down.

RiotScruffy has actually recently commented that they're taking a look at Lee Sin for potential changes or reworking; he's not high on the priority list though. Your latter point is pretty valid though; Riot is looking more to bring some champions up rather than keep nerfing the stand-outs; I think this is a large motivator behind their jungle changes since, in theory (not how the game is currently balanced, since it's still preseason and therefore a work in progress), it allows for more diversity in picks because just providing a lot of damage from jungle isn't the only factor anymore.

But Riot hasn't implemented it yet, despite seeing it on the forums countless times. If you want to actually get anywhere, you need to find out why.

My best guess is that Riot is developing some alternative system; the system I propose is more regular, sure, but it doesn't allow for any more gameplay than the current system, in many cases. I mostly started this thread in order to keep the conversation about crits going.

Narasimha1 votes

Overall a great idea. The main issue I have is that it just becomes a battle of stats. Does the other adc have more crit/AD than me? Then they'll win trades 9/10 times. The one good thing about the RNG mechanic is that it allows someone behind to have that comeback chance.

MrBuffington1 votes

I think that's sort of the issue; If you're the person in the lead, and the other person gets a crit, you feel cheated since you should have the advantage. I think adding other avenues for players to have a comeback is more preferable.

To compare this system to something like Mejai's; Mejai's is usually an item you buy either when you're not worried about dying and can afford to get this risky item that can potentially snowball your lead if you play well. Similarly, this form of crit can be bought earlier; it won't have as great an impact as raw AD since your other ratios might not benefit and if you have low amounts of AD, you're not going to benefit as greatly, however this allows you later in the game to buy AD and see your damage amplified more rapidly than if you just bought AD in the beginning.

Sasogwa1 votes

Completely against the idea. Though I respect your work, I think crit is fine, fun and present in a whole lot of games where it brings an element of random which compensates a bit for the hardgamer "all skill no luck" and allows a little tiny bit of casual, which is really cool for a game that is already EXTREMELY competitive. Sorry, but crit doesn't make this game not competitive.

MrBuffington1 votes

I think there are healthier ways to implement RNG into a game like LoL than having crit; crit is fun in many games like TF2, but that game is already pretty random. Calculating damage output, I would argue, is more necessary (not necessarily more valuable, but more necessary) to play LoL at higher levels than some other games (even in TF2, they disable crits in competitive games).

An option could be to implement this sort of more consistent system in ranked play, but other game modes retain the current crit system, similar to how bullet spread in scatter-weapons can be made more regular in games like TF2 or CS:GO in competitive environments.

Lobode1 votes

one of the biggest things I see with this is champs like tryn and yas would need reworks. They would both scale way to fast and would cease being late game champs and instead become all game champs. Those are just the 2 obvious champs but every AD champ would scale like crazy way to early in the game. So armor and hp would have to get reworked across the board for champs and items. I did vote "good", as I really hate RNG and if riot took the time to rebalance everything I think it would be good for the game. A change like this would probably make it easier for rito to balance since there would no longer be any RNG. I just see this being a huge change that would need the proper attention to make sure it is done right.

MrBuffington1 votes

I actually think this could help Yasuo and Trynd; sure they might need some balance changes to adjust, but I think it'll give them a more regular powercurve (see LaserDeathBlade's thread on Yasuo). Building crit won't actually increase their damage by too much; honestly these changes give the same overall DPS but more consistently. Instead, they won't be randomly hitting for large amounts in the early game; getting early crits really swings the early game, I hear this is really make-or-break for Tryndamere in lane for example. I agree this needs a lot of attention, which is why I made this thread.

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