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Why do supports have to feel so handicapped?

FANTAsticOrange··4 votes·1,353 views

I understand that the current meta often calls for a duo lane with a Carry and a Support--the support often having CC and steroids for their carry.

My question is why does the Support role carry weight as the "handicapped role" or "underpowered." They're already at the lowest gold income, why do supports like Sona, Nami, and Janna have poor scalings on their heals, shields, and CC spells?

I believe that all the mage, poke, and utility supports should unite! Just because their build paths may not support the scalings, they shouldn't scale like crap, Riot.

On the other hand, disablers like Thresh, Blitzcrank and Alistar are in a good spot as frontline controllers, but their tankiness scalings really should be looked at.

I never understood this concept in League of Legends, throwing supports under the bus: they're champions like any other. The title "Support" seems more like an impairment than a rank at the moment, and I think they need to be looked at from a broader view. item 3070 Bard Janna Morgana Nami Sona Soraka Zyra item 3070

28 Comments

MudintheWater5 votes

Morgana and Zyra absolutely don't need scaling buffs. If you buffed the scaling of either of them they would become midlane gods for one patch only to be nerfed into the ground the next.

Aeolian Melodies1 votes

{quoted}

Morgana and Zyra absolutely don't need scaling buffs. If you buffed the scaling of either of them they would become midlane gods for one patch only to be nerfed into the ground the next.

They're mages.

IcyPepper1 votes

they would become midlane gods for one patch only to be nerfed into the ground the next.

So basically history would repeat itself.

ValyrianBlade3 votes

The reason supports have low scalings is to give them a really strong early game and utility based kit.

Could you imagine if Sona had a high AP damage ratio on her Q? She'd win lane every game with the infinite sustain from her heal, and do loads of damage at the same time. She already actually scales quite hard if you build her AP with lichbane, so maybe not the best example.

Say Taric. Could you imagine how OP that would be if he could deal damage like a typical bruiser? So he heals in lane all game, has a point and click ranged targeted stun, and then scales on top of that?

Supports are designed to have a kit that's strong regardless of how much gold they have (i.e. a utility based kit, high base stats on the skills with low scalings, and typically CC or other desirable traits). The low scaling is what encourages them to buy items that support their team (sightstone, Zeke's, mikhaels, Ardent censor, locket, etc...). A high scaling champion sacrifices too much building these powerful items because they need every point of AD/AP/armor/MR/health/AS/Crit/penetration/etc... they can get. A utility based champion prioritizes these items.

Supports contribute a lot to the team, it's just often hard to notice because these auras and actives aren't making the big plays. No one credits the Soraka that healed her ADC all fight and used Mikhael's to get her out of a tough spot where she would have died before dealing any damage, they credit the ADC that proceeded to get the Penta-Kill.

Pika3105 votes

Could you imagine if Sona had a high AP damage ratio on her Q? She'd win lane every game with the infinite sustain from her heal, and do loads of damage at the same time.

You choose the support with the WEAKEST and MOST EXPENSIVE heal in the game for your example? Her sustain is FAR from "infinite" after considering those AND having the 3rd-lowest base mana, it's not even mediocre. It's legitimately rock-bottom. As for the scaling on her Q; it'll surprise you to find out that it had 70% AP previous to the support class gutting in patch 3.14 where Rito decided support champions weren't allowed to be viable. They heavily nerfed every support champion in the game short of Lulu, severely cutting their scalings and bases across the board.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/V3.14

I'm sorry to say, you have a very poor understanding of the support class and I highly question your overall judgement of champion strengths.

ValyrianBlade2 votes

"I'm sorry to say, you have a very poor understanding of the support class and I highly question your overall judgement of champion strengths."

It seems pretty clear given the state supports are in, that it is you who lacks the understanding of the support class. To extrapolate that to judgment of champion strengths overall is very bigoted of you.

It is perfectly obvious that supports are utility champions. Having lots of scaling on a champion that offers lots of utility (i.e. a champion that is still very useful when behind) would make them obscenely overpowered and would invalidate all other picks.

Why would I ever pick Garen over Taric if Taric could outdamage Garen?

And using Sona as an example with lots of sustain: having a weak heal per cast doesn't make it weak. She has low cooldowns. She actually benefits from building mana regen items. Her healing can be oppressive - see her in ARAMs.

Aeolian Melodies2 votes

{quoted}

It is perfectly obvious that supports are utility champions. Having lots of scaling on a champion that offers lots of utility (i.e. a champion that is still very useful when behind) would make them obscenely overpowered and would invalidate all other picks.

Who says anything about dmg?

What I'd want would be actual AP ratios on utility, not the trivial shit that we were given, that got the bases nerfed an that you need 200+ AP to MATCH the utility that you used to provide without any items/scaling back in S3.

Either scrap the concept entirely or make these ratios actually matter. And why did we need to dumpster base utility values because we added ratios? Do all mages' base dmg values suck because "they have AP scaling"?

Emmy Cha0s1 votes

She heals for 15 HP in ARAM. No exaggeration, 15 HP. Nuff said. Stay bronze kid.

Archon X2 votes

Not sure how Janna has bad scaling, at 5 points in her E - level 9 - it grants 50 AD. That's a free BF sword.

Aeolian Melodies1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Archon X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=A48sMtzu,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-10-20T21:52:19.271+0000)

Not sure how Janna has bad scaling, at 5 points in her E - level 9 - it grants 50 AD. That's a free BF sword.

He means scaling with items.

Janna overall has decent scaling on her supportive abilities but she's kind of the exception.

ShaftyMegee2 votes

Use taric, he has a great base heal

Mister Mackey2 votes

Bard I prefer the term handicapable.

Pigwidgeon2 votes

Ba-dum tss

IcyPepper2 votes

Bard-um tss

Mecha MaIphite2 votes

Let's take Viktor for an example.

Viktor has pretty good damage, and a mediocre amount of utility. Can you imagine if we buffed his utility to support levels? Say, allies in his ult gain 50% movespeed, his Q shields nearby allies, and his E explosion applies a slow? He would be utterly toxic to play against.

The opposite is true for supports; they have very good utility, but mediocre damage to make up for it. If we gave them good scaling, they'd just go in a role where they'd be able to afford to buy damage items, and then dominate. Even if they didn't win lane, they can still be quite useful to their team as a sort of secondary support.

Aeolian Melodies1 votes

{quoted}

Let's take Viktor for an example.

Viktor has pretty good damage, and a mediocre amount of utility. Can you imagine if we buffed his utility to support levels? Say, allies in his ult gain 50% movespeed, his Q shields nearby allies, and his E explosion applies a slow? He would be utterly toxic to play against.

The opposite is true for supports; they have very good utility, but mediocre damage to make up for it. If we gave them good scaling, they'd just go in a role where they'd be able to afford to buy damage items, and then dominate. Even if they didn't win lane, they can still be quite useful to their team as a sort of secondary support.

One champion to prove you wrong: Lulu

Lulu is currently played as a solo lane support more often than a duo lane support.

Even in mid or top lane, her main focus once she leaves her lane remains to support the team - you don't see them annihilating the enemy laner and getting quadras every fight. You don't see them sitting on the highest dmg dealt to champions on the team. For a solo laner, her dmg remains low (due to having 1 damage spell, one conditional damage spell, and a non-damaging ultimate), but she compensates in safety and utility for her team, and it is valuable enough in certain team comps. So yes she's popular, and strong, but being a huge damage threat isn't really part of the equation.

Lugg2 votes

There are no underpowered champions, just underpowered players.

Aeolian Melodies1 votes

{quoted}

There are no underpowered champions, just underpowered players.

Suuure... that's why when a player at worlds hover on Teemo, Heimer, or any other non-FOTM champion, the crowd and the casters instantly know they're trolling and it won't actually be their pick, right?

FOTM are FOTM for a reason. They are superior champions at the moment - ofc at our casual level it doesn't matter and your own experience with the champion is a lot more important than any possible tier list, but to say that there aren't champions that are too weak and champions that are too strong is plain wrong as evidenced by competitive gameplay.

Lugg1 votes

Yeah, at the pro level you HAVE to pick the meta champs 95% of the time.

For your average support though, there are so many viable choices that aren't meta.

Deep Terror Nami1 votes

I don't see the problem.

LordCrazyGlue1 votes

True and that handicap or lack of scaling is why we have more tank supports and mage support as opposed to having some of the true supports who's kit is designed for supporting another champion. they are just not strong enough.

HentRex1 votes

Morgana Zyra Annie Lulu Lux (annie lulu and lux were left out of your post but I feel they still fit for this part) Their ap ratios are formidable in solo lanes.

Janna Nami Sona Soraka Their scaling would be fine, but their kits don't work as well in solo lanes. Back when the game had a slower pace seeing an AP Janna mid wasn't abnormal.

It's not so much supports scaling that's the problem it's not having the gold to itemize scaling. Rabadon's on the vast majority of supports and they still chunk. There is simply not enough gold on the map for 5 players. Just my opinion.

Aeolian Melodies1 votes

{quoted}

Morgana Zyra Annie Lulu Lux (annie lulu and lux were left out of your post but I feel they still fit for this part) Their ap ratios are formidable in solo lanes.

Janna Nami Sona Soraka Their scaling would be fine, but their kits don't work as well in solo lanes. Back when the game had a slower pace seeing an AP Janna mid wasn't abnormal.

It's not so much supports scaling that's the problem it's not having the gold to itemize scaling. Rabadon's on the vast majority of supports and they still chunk. There is simply not enough gold on the map for 5 players. Just my opinion.

  1. Morg, Zyra, Annie and Lux are primarily mages, of course their scaling is good
  2. Lulu is kind of the only exception where a support's utility AP scalings don't entirely suck balls
  3. It's not a budget issue. An AP-oriented support build isn't that much more expensive than the classic tankish active whore build, but the issue is that their scaling on utility sucks so having 300 AP on Janna or Nami isn't as valuable as having item 3069 item 3190 item 3222 . If utility ACTUALLY scaled nicely, maybe it would be, and it would make each supports more unique in how they support their team.

Also, Janna mid wasn't just seen when "the pace of the game was slower". She actually went through a lot of nerfs between now and the time she was seen mid as a situational pick. When Janna could mid, her Q had a much better AP ratio and base range, AND the CC didn't scale with the charge up time, W had a better early MS buff, lower CD and better dmg + AP ratio, E had a better AP ratio (.9 vs .7 now), better AD buff at earlier ranks, AND the AD buff lasted 5 sec no matter what, and R's pushback range was 1000 units instead of 800. It's not just the game environment that makes it so she can't mid anymore (or else Lulu wouldn't be able to either), it's the 10 nerfs she received to remove her solo lane potential, which was "justified" because her waveclear was "too safe", meanwhile Ahri Anivia Azir Brand Cassiopeia Ekko Galio pre-rework Gragas Heimerdinger Jayce Karthus Lissandra Lulu Lux Malzahar Mordekaiser Morgana Orianna Syndra TwistedFate Velkoz Viktor Xerath Zed Ziggs Zyra .

Athenes Lulu1 votes

Yeah, buff other supports so Lulu doesn't have to be the ONLY one getting kicked out of botlane from sheep.

Pigwidgeon1 votes

I don't really think Thresh, Blitzcrank's, or Alistar's tank stats need to be redone that much. •Alistar's ult lets him shrug off CC and be almost unkillable in teamfights. •In my opinion Blitzcrank should be focused more around getting high-priority picks off, not so much soaking up damage. •Thresh gains armor from his passive. I think his MR stats should be looked into, though. As of now he gains no MR per level. As for mid-ranged supports like the many you mentioned, I can sort of see your point. Bard's heal isn't really that potent late game...at the same time, however, champs like Soraka, Nami, Sona, and Janna have VERY strong heals at any point in the game. But on the subject of scaling...if you're referring to AP scaling in particular, I'm kind of iffy on that. Soraka's Starcall and Morgana's Tormented Soil can steal CS or accidentally push waves if cast near minions. Better to not have those abilities do TOO much damage--just enough to wear enemy laners down and zone them off. In terms of tank scalings on these champions, I'd say their main job is not to be in the center of the fight, absorbing damage like Alistar or Thresh, but to provide devent poke/CC/ heals. Thanks for reading!

Aeolian Melodies1 votes

{quoted}

 As for mid-ranged supports like the many you mentioned, I can sort of see your point. Bard's heal isn't really that potent late game...at the same time, however, champs like Soraka, Nami, Sona, and Janna have VERY strong heals at any point in the game.

Nami's heal is decent. Soraka's heal is broken AF. Janna's heal is good but is over time and on her ult so it's not like it's "spammable" or anything.

Sona's heal is shitty until max rank with good AP (and you better have good mana pool/regen to back it up, because 100 mana is kind of pricey - this is the cost of most ultimate abilities, ffs). The fact that her healing over the course of a game can be matched or outdone by Janna (which happens on a lot of my non-AP Sona games) whose healing is tied to an ultimate that she doesn't always channel speaks volume.

And OP is referring to the AP scaling on utility, such as the AP scaling on Janna's slow and the AP scaling on Sona's speed buff, which are all trivial to the point where no one builds for them.

Pigwidgeon1 votes

I see your point. Sona's heal isn't that great until it is maxed and has more AP to scale with. I see more and more people building lots of AP on Sona lately. Whether that is good or bad is up for debate. Tons of AP buffs her heal greatly, but it also makes her Q deal ridiculous damage, which is nice for poking but ends up stealing kills.

Ralanr1 votes

I don't know, maybe cause they're encouraged to not kill minions?

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