Give us 2 bans per player

Sleep On Stream·Dec 6, 2018·66 votes·15,446 views

you dont wanna fix champion like irelia and leblanc

give us 2 player ban 2 bans per player

a 2 second nerf is going do sht

and irelia can e u across the map

96 Comments

OmegaNITRODec 6, 201813 votes

20 bans? Nah I'm good, that's way too many.

Maybe when we hit 300 champs, but banning out 15% of the cast means some champs won't exist outside of blind pick.

SociaI JusticeDec 6, 201831 votes

banning out 15% of the cast means some champs won't exist outside of blind pick.

good.

agac4234Dec 7, 20184 votes

yeah lets fuck over ppl that actaully like playing those champions liek irelia and akali.lets make 15% or more of the player base quit league because they cant play the champions that they like. good idea

SociaI JusticeDec 7, 20187 votes

irelia, yasuo, akali mains will quit!!!!!

good.

WoodenCreatureDec 7, 20184 votes

{quoted}

yeah lets fuck over ppl that actaully like playing those champions liek irelia and akali.lets make 15% or more of the player base quit league because they cant play the champions that they like. good idea

If they play just 1 champion then we are better w/o them. If they just int on anything else than their main and those ones usualy buy 1 or no skins at all. so yeah a good idea.

DyrreahDec 7, 20182 votes

I mean.... I'm all for player diversity but whoever can play Irelia and akali without a bad taste in their mouth is a fucking sociopath.

agac4234Dec 7, 20182 votes

tahts just ur opion ppl like playing diffrent stuff

ZapzyaDec 6, 201810 votes

Doesn't that suggest those champions are somewhat of a problem, or possibly not fun to play against?

Irelia BotDec 7, 20184 votes

LoL... Fun... Pick one.

They have not gone together since 5.16

3TWarriorDec 8, 20181 votes

was that the start of preseason 6 or was it a bit later than that?

Irelia BotDec 8, 20181 votes

That was a few patches before season 5 worlds.

LordGeovanniDec 7, 20185 votes

If you can tell that champions reliably wont see play because people ban them so much (Mind you that cross team ban stacking would still happen.) then that suggests that said champions are unhealthy.

OmegaNITRODec 11, 20181 votes

For one, who said it would be the same champs every patch?

Two, not necessarily. There are plenty of champs in this game that aren't actually balance issues or unhealthy, but simply have an annoying playstyle or a bad reputation.

Three, even were that NOT the case, then everyone would be able to ban their counterpick as well as the identified flavor of the month/strongest champ in their position. Until there's enough champs and a broad enough top tier to not get potentially over 10% of the cast banned, permaban status would end up just being the top of the table, even if no cancer champs existed.

Not a very good idea.

LordGeovanniDec 11, 20181 votes

then if its no the same champions its an non issue if some one is banning all their counters then its not just them its their team working together.

Silly NeekoDec 6, 20189 votes

Some people....

"I dont want to learn how to play against that champ. So im just going to ban them and claim they are op"

You have your 1 ban. Use it. Learn to fight against the other. It isnt hard, you just need to actually turn off your instatilt switch and.... Figure. It. Out. Quite a few people already have, and as soon as you start trying to, you could be among those that think they are not that bad!

DracocrashDec 6, 201831 votes

[{quoted}](name=Silly Neeko,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9jk1YpnJ,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-12-06T18:39:51.859+0000)

Some people....

"I dont want to learn how to play against that champ. So im just going to ban them and claim they are op"

You have your 1 ban. Use it. Learn to fight against the other. It isnt hard, you just need to actually turn off your instatilt switch and.... Figure. It. Out. Quite a few people already have, and as soon as you start trying to, you could be among those that think they are not that bad!

It's not about learning to play against them. Some champions are just frustrating to play against, even if you know how to, because the playstyle that is required to counter them is un-fun to begin with.

Silly NeekoDec 6, 20187 votes

{quoted}

It's not about learning to play against them. Some champions are just frustrating to play against, even if you know how to, because the playstyle that is required to counter them is un-fun to begin with.

Having to play against a champion in any way that you do not like is unfun. Yet here we are. Playing league. Where you have to fight against different champs differently. Its almost like its a game with strategetic playing or something.... i dont know. Maybe im just crazy.

DracocrashDec 6, 201818 votes

[{quoted}](name=Silly Neeko,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9jk1YpnJ,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-12-06T19:37:36.708+0000)

Having to play against a champion in any way that you do not like is unfun. Yet here we are. Playing league. Where you have to fight against different champs differently. Its almost like its a game with strategetic playing or something.... i dont know. Maybe im just crazy.

Some champs force inherently unfun play styles on enemies just by existing, more so than others. It is these champions that make the game extremely unfun to play compared to the average champion. With riot releasing and reworking more and more of these overloaded champions (though the bulk of them are CT creations, lol) that force extremely unfun playstyles, compared to the average champion, the need to ban them out increases, since riot refuses to balance some of them.

OP isn't in the wrong to state his opinion of wanting more bans because the amount of "fizz/leblanc/yasuo- type champions" have increased.

Riot tries to nerf hammer these champions into the ground (Hi, kalista, azir, Zoe) but sometimes they show blatant favouritism and keep unhealthy champions in a strong state, and as time goes on the number of unhealthy champions in a strong state is being increased. It's only fair to want more bans to not have to play against them.

IfnethDec 7, 20181 votes

Correction: the most hated champions are not CT champions. It’s actually the ones of the guy who created Anivia.

DracocrashDec 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Correction: the most hated champions are not CT champions. It’s actually the ones of the guy who created Anivia.

Er.. so I looked up his list and I don't think I see your point

Anivia, Cass, Janna, Nidalee were created by him. Morgana, Ryze, taric and TF reworked by him.

How are these worse than yasuo zoe darius kalista akali morde graves thresh zyra cait.

DyrreahDec 7, 20181 votes

Anivia Nida Janna Morg Ryze... this person really hates fun.

3TWarriorDec 8, 20181 votes

yep, the slowest projectiles in the game and one-time mechanics that only work in niche situations certainly say "I hate fun!" XD

though i'm not sure what to think of Nidalee as her spear used to be completely toxic

DyrreahDec 10, 20181 votes

I don't mean playing them is not fun but playing against them is agitating. A good anivia or Ryze is a pain to play against. In Jannas case there is a reason she's called brain dead. Like when I duod with my adc friend and picked Janna. Literally like second timed her aside from Aram. And my friend goes like hey since when can you play Janna? I can't mate I just spam shit on cd and when you get jumped I press r.

3TWarriorDec 10, 20181 votes

well, I never found a problem playing against anivia, but then again, her playerbase was so small even back then that it was a treat to even play against one, so it was unlikely that I would encounter a "good" anivia

In addition to your comment about janna, her kit may be simple, but there are large differences between someone who can play janna and someone great at playing Janna

who were you playing against at the time that they played janna? if it was a simpler matchup such as against Alistar, you could have stayed in lane virtually forever... I tend to play more aggressive supports so I don't really have a problem with janna. She also has a fairly weak lane before 6 unless the opponent chooses to cheese her targeted W

If you want similar examples but with "skilled" champions, I instantly hated both Vayne and Yasuo because they had to play completely selfishly with split-second maneuvers, but if you got the hang of it, you were virtually unstoppable

got a triple kill on my first game with both of them and basically never looked back at them since because I hated how they played and against Yasuo, I hate him even more

IfnethDec 7, 20181 votes

Apparently they are seen as ‘anti-fun’ champs whose kits discourage and stop interaction; e.g., Janna.

DyrreahDec 10, 20181 votes

Exactly. These champs all have some mechanics that just scream COCKBLOCK. And since we nerds don't get too much pussy we hate that.

ModBianca ColtDec 6, 201820 votes

I guess by that logic we don't even need balance changes anymore. Just learn how to play against everyone and that's it.

https://media.giphy.com/media/y1YqNut2cuOGY/giphy.gif

Handy Sandy Dec 6, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=KDA Umbra,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9jk1YpnJ,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-12-06T20:57:32.623+0000)

I guess by that logic we don't even need balance changes anymore. Just learn how to play against everyone and that's it.

https://media.giphy.com/media/y1YqNut2cuOGY/giphy.gif

why should we even have bans anymore just learn 2 play :^)

DeventhMar 6, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=KDA Umbra,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9jk1YpnJ,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-12-06T20:57:32.623+0000)

I guess by that logic we don't even need balance changes anymore. Just learn how to play against everyone and that's it.

https://media.giphy.com/media/y1YqNut2cuOGY/giphy.gif

Made my day. LOL [slayer-jinx-wink]

DyrreahDec 7, 20181 votes

Why is this comment so downvoted? This is literally the reason people don't climb oh I can't play against x ill just ban it. Then you can't play against 2 and you want 2 Bans. I despise playing against Lee sin yet I never ban him because I realised how to play against him. He is annoying and stupidly overrated (I mean yeah he's hard late game but ganking and doing a qq e hey u died is NOT SKILLFUL). I learned how to deal with him. Ofc when Irelia is like Irelia: exists Your whole team: we dead af thats a different story but honestly right now this is only Irelia and maybe akali and lb. Communicate with your team ask them please ban x, I will ban y. Surprisingly helpful reactions occur usually.

Silly NeekoDec 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Why is this comment so downvoted? This is literally the reason people don't climb oh I can't play against x ill just ban it. Then you can't play against 2 and you want 2 Bans. I despise playing against Lee sin yet I never ban him because I realised how to play against him. He is annoying and stupidly overrated (I mean yeah he's hard late game but ganking and doing a qq e hey u died is NOT SKILLFUL). I learned how to deal with him. Ofc when Irelia is like Irelia: exists Your whole team: we dead af thats a different story but honestly right now this is only Irelia and maybe akali and lb. Communicate with your team ask them please ban x, I will ban y. Surprisingly helpful reactions occur usually.

Honestly it isnt a "oh god irelia exists". Yeah she can be a difficult matchup for the more common champs played, but guess what? Why do you think Viktor top and Lucian top have been around more? To poke and punish people like Irelia.

With Akali and Leblanc, Xerath works quite well because he just needs to predict their movements rather than try to play something that requires you to see your target. He also has the range to poke without being in any danger area. Morde also works well against Akali. Zilean ive beat akali with as well.

Honestly i find champions like Yi much more annoying. The rest are only actually good if the person playing her is good. Which quite a few are just people who want to try and tilt the other person cause they picked the champ (which obviously works quite well lol)

DyrreahDec 7, 20181 votes

Well that's the point, thank you. No champ is insta win anymore (we don't miss you 2 sec silence Kass) but the mentality of I'll just ban it kills individual improvement. Ban 1 that counters you or you just don't like that's fine. But what do we want? Hey 15 champs are broken give us 15 bans. I honestly see why people want to ban stuff but it's literally escaping the problem. When the champ gets nerfed and becomes an alright champ you won't ban it anymore. Next game you get obliterated in lane by that champ because you have never learned the necessary counterplay. Then said individual goes on boards and makes a thread about WTF XY SO BROKEN I kept banning them for 2 months BTW I have no idea of the matchup.

dontspinbutwinDec 6, 20189 votes

Remember when we only had 3 bans per team, and it was only first pick who could ban?

Now we have 1 ban per player, so we can ban whoever we think is frustrating.

Of course, the argument here is "but they're all frustrating to play against". Why exactly are they frustrating to play against then?

For Irelia, treat her like a bruiser version of Yasuo. She only has mobility through minions, so be cautious around them. Her primary burst comes from "E-Q-Q-auto". Her e is a narrow skillshot that doesn't have much casting range (not "range", CASTING range), so it forces her to dash around minions in hopes that she can stun you. If she misses, she really has no burst potential there.
Her W may have much damage reduction, yet she usually only uses it in a last ditch effort, similarly to when a Yi is meditating during combat. Just be cautious after the channel, and dodge her e if she casts it.

Agreed, I can see why she might be frustrating to fight, you have to think while fighting her. But then again, have you ever imagined how the enemy feels when fighting your champions?

Every champion is extremely frustrating to fight if you don't know how to play against it, thats it. Remember when teemo was the most infuriating toplaner? Now, many champions learned how to deal with him, how to bait his blind, how to burst him down, and how to give up cs.

Remember when morde was the unkillable ADC in bot? Now, hes a joke, because people learned how to kite.

Just learn weaknesses, and stop assuming that a champion is OP or broken, just because they're frustrating to fight.

GigglesODec 6, 20186 votes

{quoted}

Remember when we only had 3 bans per team, and it was only first pick who could ban?

Now we have 1 ban per player, so we can ban whoever we think is frustrating.

Of course, the argument here is "but they're all frustrating to play against". Why exactly are they frustrating to play against then?

For Irelia, treat her like a bruiser version of Yasuo. She only has mobility through minions, so be cautious around them. Her primary burst comes from "E-Q-Q-auto". Her e is a narrow skillshot that doesn't have much casting range (not "range", CASTING range), so it forces her to dash around minions in hopes that she can stun you. If she misses, she really has no burst potential there.
Her W may have much damage reduction, yet she usually only uses it in a last ditch effort, similarly to when a Yi is meditating during combat. Just be cautious after the channel, and dodge her e if she casts it.

Agreed, I can see why she might be frustrating to fight, you have to think while fighting her. But then again, have you ever imagined how the enemy feels when fighting your champions?

Every champion is extremely frustrating to fight if you don't know how to play against it, thats it. Remember when teemo was the most infuriating toplaner? Now, many champions learned how to deal with him, how to bait his blind, how to burst him down, and how to give up cs.

Remember when morde was the unkillable ADC in bot? Now, hes a joke, because people learned how to kite.

Just learn weaknesses, and stop assuming that a champion is OP or broken, just because they're frustrating to fight.

Irealia also has more movement speed, range, and can dash through champions.

Morde was never unkillable if you kited him.

dontspinbutwinDec 6, 20185 votes

Who does irelia have more movement speed than? What range do you refer to? Many champs can dash through/to champions, like lee sin, rakan, yasuo. Her on click dash is annoying, yes, but there are other champions I can name who have that but better, but isn't as mentioned as much as champions such as akali or irelia (Like Rengar, warwick, xin, Yi, Talon, etc).

You are right, morde was killable if properly kited, but it took a few months for people to learn how to deal with him in bot, similarly how it took people a while to learn how to play jhin or taliyah upon release. Right now everyone is learning how to fight against her, and I just only found out why she's so frustrating to fight a few months ago, and I adapted my playstyle against her. Just adapt and improvise rather than trying the same thing, then complaining when that same thing doesn't work.

GigglesODec 7, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Who does irelia have more movement speed than? What range do you refer to? Many champs can dash through/to champions, like lee sin, rakan, yasuo. Her on click dash is annoying, yes, but there are other champions I can name who have that but better, but isn't as mentioned as much as champions such as akali or irelia (Like Rengar, warwick, xin, Yi, Talon, etc).

You are right, morde was killable if properly kited, but it took a few months for people to learn how to deal with him in bot, similarly how it took people a while to learn how to play jhin or taliyah upon release. Right now everyone is learning how to fight against her, and I just only found out why she's so frustrating to fight a few months ago, and I adapted my playstyle against her. Just adapt and improvise rather than trying the same thing, then complaining when that same thing doesn't work.

she has more movement speed than morde... and well anyone below her MS...

She has 200 attack range

she can actually kite morde without him being able to auto attack her...

Morde is supposed to be rewarded for standing still against melee champs... he loses trades to irelia even if she doesn't damage reduce his 3rd Q.

dontspinbutwinDec 7, 20181 votes

....dude. I'm not saying morde is the sole reason Irelia is able to be killed. I used Morde as an example, an analogy so to speak. However, even in a 1v1, it is extremely possible for morde to win a 1v1. It is true, irelia has 335 movement speed, while morde has 325, but mordekaiser usually gets rylais to compensate for his lack of mobility, as well as gunblade for the burst/slow/heal. Irelia has a larger attack range than most melees, yes, but as morde has a shield for using skills (as that is how all fights are usually determined), irelia has to burst him down before he juggles his shields, as if he does, he wins the duel.... meaning she has to go in with her e-q-q...meaning she has 0 forms of disengage if she chooses to fight. Morde suffers in a passive matchup, yes, but in a raw 1v1 duel, morde has the upper hand.

I digress however. "she has more movement speed than morde... and well anyone below her MS..." ...Dude. That's common knowledge. Thats like saying kench is an undefeatable duelist because he has 200 AA range and has 335 movement speed, like irelia, thus allowing him to kite with his harsh slows and autos. However, he has 0 way to disengage, but has sustainability in exchange for it. Similarly, Irelia is in the same pot. She has mobility, but she doesn't have much sustain, in which she makes up for by burst. However, if she fails to burst/trade ( which happens, believe it or not), she gets punished severely for it, as she makes the walk of shame back while taking agro from the enemy.

But fine, lets say its an unfavorable matchup, and you tend to lose a 1v1 against irelia, like irelia vs zed. Zed is in a good spot, and isn't out of meta, yet in a 1v1, zed will usually lose. But according to your logic, zed should win, as he has alot more movement speed (10 to be precise).

Ok, but thats just one champion right? Well how about urgot? He has 5 less movement speed than irelia, but many of us know in a 1v1, irelia would lose drastically. Why? Because Irelia is a bursty bruiser, while urgot is a bursty dps frontliner ( not necessarily bruiser), who excels in disruption.

Well, lets say by some miracle, the champs have equil movement speed and dueling potential. Irelia can "kite" with her 200 range autos right?

...except nearly all champions have a form of cc, weak or not. Take ornn for example. He has the same movement speed as irelia, and is quite immobile (i don't count his e as a form of reliable disengage, as he is susceptible to being harshly kited, and there is a small delay at the end of the channel if he hits nothing), so by your argument, he loses in a 1v1 against irelia, since he has lower range autos, less attack speed, and can "get kited". Yet from all games ive played as ornn/ every ornn vs irelia matchup ive seen, ornn usually wins this lane, and the trades usually aren't even close. Ornn usually wins by a landslide, as he has a knockup, a slow, another knockup, a.... you get the idea. Is he broken though? Hell no, he was nerfed hard, and has a low winrate (43%).

Even with cc, most champs have an auto attacking enhancer. Enter Nasus. Heavy bursting frontline tank who can literally 3v1. Is he broken? Hell no, hes just frustrating to fight, because you have to pressure him all game, or the chances of winning are lowered.

The argument that irelia is broken because she has more auto range isn't valid (see tahm, or any champ with cc/ auto enhancers)

The argument that irelia is broken because she has more movement speed than other champions (not that true, the middleground for movement speed is at 335, where irelia sits at currently. Also, champs with higher movement speed than her can still lose in a 1v1, like zed)

Many people have already learned how to fight her, as she sits at a fair 46% winrate ( in plat.)

Argue all you want, but irelia isn't broken. She's just frustrating because you have to subconsciously think, like when you lane against yasuo, draven, or nasus. If you're frustrated with her and don't know how to play against her, fine, then ban her until you learn, then learn to counter other champs. (Note: this thread didn't start off as an irelia hate spam, but a ban plea).

(PS: Morde isn't rewarded for standing next to champions, he's rewarded for getting to them and bursting them down. If he fails to do such, he loses/gets kited to oblivion. If he succeeds, he gets more burst/tankiness, more map control, and possibly a pet drag. )

GigglesODec 7, 20182 votes

{quoted}

but in a raw 1v1 duel, morde has the upper hand.

Have you played this matchup? Irelia wins 10/10 times because she has a better kit. She stuns double dashes, and then just r/auto morde intill he dies or gets his 3rd q, which she just presses a button and negates all of his work getting to 3rd q...

She wins that trade, prolonged or not.

...Dude. That's common knowledge. Thats like saying kench is an undefeatable duelist because he has 200 AA range and has 335 movement speed, like irelia, thus allowing him to kite with his harsh slows and autos. However, he has 0 way to disengage,

So you've literally never seen a tham kite with his consume/toung lash? And then disengage after a toung lash slow or even stun. He has good disengage unless the enemy is you know irelia, a ranged melee champion.

But fine, lets say its an unfavorable matchup, and you tend to lose a 1v1 against irelia, like irelia vs zed. Zed is in a good spot, and isn't out of meta, yet in a 1v1, zed will usually lose. But according to your logic, zed should win, as he has alot more movement speed (10 to be precise).

Its all about those burst per seconds. Morde beats zed and urgot in 1v1's right now because they have shit upfront. Urgot is kitable even to mordes standards, and zed has a short range.

...except nearly all champions have a form of cc, weak or not. Take ornn for example. He has the same movement speed as irelia, and is quite immobile (i don't count his e as a form of reliable disengage, as he is susceptible to being harshly kited, and there is a small delay at the end of the channel if he hits nothing), so by your argument, he loses in a 1v1 against irelia, since he has lower range autos, less attack speed, and can "get kited". Yet from all games ive played as ornn/ every ornn vs irelia matchup ive seen, ornn usually wins this lane, and the trades usually aren't even close. Ornn usually wins by a landslide, as he has a knockup, a slow, another knockup, a.... you get the idea. Is he broken though? Hell no, he was nerfed hard, and has a low winrate (43%).

Orn has mobility and a good base movement speed. She can still kite him, but its harder because of his e (which is cancelable btw)

Even with cc, most champs have an auto attacking enhancer. Enter Nasus. Heavy bursting frontline tank

Woah noones going to agree that nasus is a tank, he is a bruiser, get that shit discussion out of here.

The argument that irelia is broken because she has more auto range isn't valid (see tahm, or any champ with cc/ auto enhancers)

Tahm was actually kinda nerfed to shit because he was too good at doing the things you say he was shit at...

The argument that irelia is broken because she has more movement speed than other champions (not that true, the middleground for movement speed is at 335, where irelia sits at currently. Also, champs with higher movement speed than her can still lose in a 1v1, like zed)

She shouldn't be losing to zed if she times her damage reduction right...

Many people have already learned how to fight her, as she sits at a fair 46% winrate ( in plat.)

Go ask a large portion of the boards, winrate is not the same as balanced.

Argue all you want, but irelia isn't broken. She's just frustrating because you have to subconsciously think, like when you lane against yasuo, draven, or nasus. If you're frustrated with her and don't know how to play against her, fine, then ban her until you learn, then learn to counter other champs. (Note: this thread didn't start off as an irelia hate spam, but a ban plea).

Ummm draven yasuo and nasus are easy. If they get into range you clap them, if they kite you they win. The issue is irelia has range, Mobility, Healing, cc, dashes, damage reduction.

Her kit is actually over loaded.

(PS: Morde isn't rewarded for standing next to champions, he's rewarded for getting to them and bursting them down. If he fails to do such, he loses/gets kited to oblivion. If he succeeds, he gets more burst/tankiness, more map control, and possibly a pet drag. )

Morde's inital design was much like vladimirs' sustained long term fighting. Only recently was this whole burst morde a thing. I know this because I've mained him since season 1. Initially he built much like a bruiser 3-4 tank items...

Irelia literally has to be a retard to lose to morde, because she can kite and nuke him.

dontspinbutwinDec 8, 20181 votes

....so we doin this. hoo boy.

You chopped up my argument, and took the pieces that fit with your argument completely to counter my argument. You have to view it in its entirety.

A. For one, like i mentioned, morde gets completely crapped in laning phase ("He loses passively, but wins duels"). Its extremely similar to Darius vs nasus. Darius harshly wins that lane, but give nasus a few stacks and armor, and nasus can take on Darius. This usually occurs 35 mins into the game, after laning phase. Morde loses lane to irelia, bc Irelia has harsher zone. However, give them both items, and Morde holds his own against irelia, and can even push her back. Most Morde mains complain against irelia matchups because laning phase sucks, and seeing how most games are short, thats the majority of the game for them. It isn't fun, so they complain.... just like how laners who fight pantheon complain.

B. I've played kench top, pre nerfs, pre buffs, post buffs, post nerfs, so on. I know his strengths, and I know his weaknesses. He has passive sustain, but not dueling sustain, so his best strat is to poke them down then go in with a burst combo. I wouldn't really count his q as a solid disengage: while his q does give a hefty slow, it stops at the first target hit, and roots him. since duels in lane usually occur around minions, he can't freely waddle out, so he has to take a few hits, and if they chase him, then he can q, and get a bit of distance, then passive heal off his e and dorans shield (if he has it). Even if he slows, there are matchups where he still dies, like Darius, who has 2 slows (e and w) and a pull (e), or garen (insane tenacity if procced correct, and his spin still damages if he's eaten), jax (q and e, usually used seperatly in lane when fighting tahm), so on so forth.

C. In a sheer 1v1, I do agree that zed loses against morde. It's why zed never does try for that 1v1, he instead pokes down morde from a distance to ensure morde cant get shield procs with his skills, then goes in for the kill. Urgot has scaling damage/burst, so in all stages of the game, urgot can win against morde. I'll assume you mean zed's range is short by his auto range, but zed never autos someone to death. He combos them, or ult combos them, then uses his passive proc to chunk em hard. Zed=/=yi.

D.You are correct, I think ornn's movement speed is at a fine spot. However, like i stated, he isn't mobile. His dash is long, yes, but like I stated, there is a delay if he hits nothing, causing him to just sit there for a short delay, which is all it takes for the enemy to catch up. Granted, Ornn usually follows this up with his Q slow, so that's how he escapes, but just because a champion escapes doesn't mean they have mobility. I've seen many elise players escape a near death experience. Do they have mobility? Heck no. They just stun, spider form, then crawl away. It should also be noted I brang up Ornn as an example to how Irelia can't kite due to cc in champion kits, yet you're here trying to discuss how I'm incorrect, which is ad hominem, or even attacking the person fallacy/ies. So thus, I will correct, and move on.

E. The nasus thing. You dismissed the entire nasus argument because I used the word tank, rather than bruiser. I believe that's straw man fallacy. Even if you disagree with the nasus being a tank thing, that takes 0 away from the argument.

F. You are correct, irelia wins in a 1v1 against zed. that was the point of my argument. I wanted to say that movement speed means very little in a 1v1 where theres high mobility. My argument was pointed out and justified yourself, so thus I need not say more here.

G. Actually, many don't like irelia because, like i've said, they don't like thinking more or differently when fighting her. It should also be noted that 70+% of players are gold and below, and it's usually those players who complain. Skill level and learning curves do exist, and with that, frustration. It's why champs like Yi can faceroll in lower elos (causing said players to complain), yet be considered a trollpick in higher elo.

H. I do like this argument, its a solid one. Irelia has alot, which is why she's frustrating. However, a few things. Her heal comes from her Q, so thus, in a 1v1 ( which is what many players complain about), she doesn't have much sustain. She has mobility, yet I once again repeat, with minions in presence. Treat her like yasuo, and her mobility disappears. irelia has a nice bit of a stun and a slow, I agree. However, I have yet to see irelia use the ult as a disengage, but rather to catch enemies out. Her e is a nice stun, yes, but if she chooses to use it, she has no forms of disengage. If she wants to burst the enemy down, she sacrifices mobility and cc, making it a fair trade. She gets much, loses a lot as well. I repeat, once again, she usually uses damage reduct when shes caught out. She never uses it to engage. If she uses it, that means she ran out of dashes or tricks, so then while she has damage reduct, she also lets the enemy know where she is and that she is in a bad spot, allowing for harsh retaliation.

I. You make a fair point with morde. However, like mentioned earlier, she has to sacrifice mobility and cc/disengage if she wants to burst him down. If she's successful, she gets rewarded. If she fails, morde can lock her down and severely punish her.

Last but not least...

J. This isn't an irelia hate thread. This is a thread discussing the frustration of fighting certain champs, and irelia just happened to pop out because she's frustrating. The entire argument that was made, and my retaliations, contribute literally nothing. I simply wanted to tell peeps to learn how to fight other champs, but you took it and molded it into an irelia hate club. Instead of saying "Haha, I'm right" and bandwagon-ing (fallacy btw), contribute to the conversation, instead of digressing harshly.

GigglesODec 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

A. For one, like i mentioned, morde gets completely crapped in laning phase ("He loses passively, but wins duels"). Its extremely similar to Darius vs nasus. Darius harshly wins that lane, but give nasus a few stacks and armor, and nasus can take on Darius. This usually occurs 35 mins into the game, after laning phase. Morde loses lane to irelia, bc Irelia has harsher zone. However, give them both items, and Morde holds his own against irelia, and can even push her back. Most Morde mains complain against irelia matchups because laning phase sucks, and seeing how most games are short, thats the majority of the game for them. It isn't fun, so they complain.... just like how laners who fight pantheon complain.

Hold on there... Morde's highest winrate is before the 25 minute mark. Do you even know how the champ works? He wins lane phase really hard against most champions, and has a relatively weak late game unless his team secures dragons... I can tell you as a fact I won 100% of lane phases until season 8 when they fucked him hard with runes and masteries.

The reason why Morde mains complain about playing against irelia is because he wins at no points in the game against her unless she is bad. Again, he is designed to win lane phase, and close out the game pre 30 minutes.

B. I wouldn't really count his ...

Matchup dependency doesn't mean that he doesn't have any disengage. You know who actually has less disengage? Morde. He needs a fucking teammate to disengage. Having to burst through Thams big ass Shield also makes for a pretty convincing argument if you do waddle just far enough away.

C. In a sheer 1v1, I do agree that zed loses against morde. It's why zed never does try for that 1v1, he instead pokes down morde from a distance to ensure morde cant get shield procs with his skills, then goes in for the kill. Urgot has scaling damage/burst, so in all stages of the game, urgot can win against morde. I'll assume you mean zed's range is short by his auto range, but zed never autos someone to death. He combos them, or ult combos them, then uses his passive proc to chunk em hard. Zed=/=yi.

Lol if you lose to urgod as morde you are doing it wrong. Urgot with his self slow may as well be a melee champion. Morde does outshield urgots damage unless fed. <- fed is not an argument for balance sooo I'll leave it at that.

As for zed, dodge his Q... and then he is a short range champ... even when he tries to combo you you get to respond. If you pop your W as you see him press R, you can pop it for damage and heal as soon as he lands 99% of the time. Then you get your R, E if you can aim, and 1 Q if you press on him. Even if you are half health since he does damage to your shield and not you his R hits for little damage most games. He is for all intensive purposes short range.

D.You are correct, I think ornn's movement speed is at a fine spot. However, like i stated, he isn't mobile.

The thing about that is sure he might not be highly mobile, but some is still well some.

E. The nasus thing. You dismissed the entire nasus argument because I used the word tank, rather than bruiser. I believe that's straw man fallacy. Even if you disagree with the nasus being a tank thing, that takes 0 away from the argument.

You can't use an infinite scaling damage champion as an example of a balanced champion. IF he is left alone to stack Q ofc he is going to win trades. If you keep beating the shit out of him all game he isn't going to get anywhere. He shouldn't be used for balance discussions unless the discussion is specifically about him. The same should be said for veigar. The other day I hit 2k ap on viegar and could Q R their tank to dead. Should we be talking about the balance there? No! The enemy team let me stack too many Q's and got punished for it. I could have built off tank and still one shot any of their squishies.

Also, when you use the term bruiser it means that they have damage, often very high damage. Mostly because riot refuses to balance tank to damage so they have mostly just transitioned everything into burst damage.

G. Actually, many don't like irelia because, like i've said, they don't like thinking more or differently when fighting her. It should also be noted that 70+% of players are gold and below, and it's usually those players who complain. Skill level and learning curves do exist, and with that, frustration. It's why champs like Yi can faceroll in lower elos (causing said players to complain), yet be considered a trollpick in higher elo.

I'd like to put out there that I'm complaining about Ireila from diamond. I am a part of that 1% of the playerbase.

It isn't about thinking against her. I used to have that argument against Yi. Morde historically loses to yi. Two seasons ago I figured out that if morde purchased Zhonyas and Stereks gauge (sure sounds like a shit build) and the morde would press Zhonyas on Yis alpha-strike which in turn wasted part of Yi's ulti because not only did he lose Q time to get to you, then he would reset to his starting dash location and be forced to walk to you. Then stereks gauge would eat a majority of upfront burst damage that yi could do while his ulti was still going. His ulti and most time's E, because a majority of yi's press E when their Q is cast would wear off, and you could just straight up fight him to death. You could do that because you negated most of his true damage and ate the burst his ulti gave.

You know how much thought that took to actually pull off? You know how good I got at doing it I was actually wining 9/10 times on morde vs yi, a matchup that morde normally lost because yi kills and lifesteals too fast and hard.

Season 8 rolled around, and now damage is to the point where I was trying that and wining 0/10 times.

Fighting irelia feels that way. She Q dashes to you, gets to stun you. Deals you another Q worth of damage, and then just autos you to death while getting to ignore a big burst of damage. To top that off if she hits her R and you could have left now you just stand there while not being able to fight her unless your champion is better than hers (or she is bad) and can just stand there to 1v1 her. If her movement speed was 325 I really wouldn't have any reason to complain about her. IF she failed her burst she couldn't just walk away like she does now. I'd make a very similar argument for Camille, yasuo, lee sin, akali.

I. You make a fair point with morde. However, like mentioned earlier, she has to sacrifice mobility and cc/disengage if she wants to burst him down. If she's successful, she gets rewarded. If she fails, morde can lock her down and severely punish her.

How does morde lock her down when she can just walk away with her higher movement speed? IF she builds black cleaver/trinity force or any movement speed damage item even through rylis she can just walk away.

Last but not least...

J. This isn't an irelia hate thread. This is a thread discussing the frustration of fighting certain champs, and irelia just happened to pop out because she's frustrating. The entire argument that was made, and my retaliations, contribute literally nothing. I simply wanted to tell peeps to learn how to fight other champs, but you took it and molded it into an irelia hate club. Instead of saying "Haha, I'm right" and bandwagon-ing (fallacy btw), contribute to the conversation, instead of digressing harshly.

You were the one that specifically mentioned Irelia in your inital argument. I just went ahead and listed why shes hated. The only reason a lot of these champions get complained about is because they are actually unfair to play against. Alot of the highest complained about champions are ones that have high damage attached to mobility. There is no way to "Simply learn" how to play against getting burst 100-0 by someone thats faster and has more damage than you.

dontspinbutwinDec 8, 20181 votes

This is my last comment, before I give up trying to properly communicate.

I used morde as an analogy, and i mentioned that twice. You took it to an extreme and used morde as a basis for 1v1s, which wasn't the argument of the fallacy of the fallacy at all. You sidetracked an argument with a fallacy, ignored the correction I gave, then took that fallacy as the "main point" to continue your side of the argument.

You stated zed was an easy matchup because his q was a small skillshot. Irelia's e is a thinner stun than zed's, but unlike zed, theres a delay, and 2 casttimes, while having a shorter castrange. Once again, your own argument contradicts yourself.

The disengage argument. He is tanky yes. However, most champions don't just auto and then let him go. They use cc to lock them down, or pull them back. Like if Tahm is top, urgot toplane might e tahm, then slow him with q, and since that locks on, w grants urgot the ability to walk over minions, leaving that fight to urgot's advantage, not to mention the jungler that may gank. sheer tankiness isn't disengage. That's like saying illaoi has great disengage due to the fact she can 2v1. That isn't disengage, that's turnaround ability, Don't mix up the 2.

The nasus argument was created to demonstrate that even an infinitely scaling champion has weaknesses. To trade the idea of infinite scaling, nasus loses many lanes, gets heavy zoned, heavy kited, so on so forth. He loses alot to have alot. Same with irelia. I won't repeat myself as on why she loses alot to have alot, go back to my former post to see what I said.

"Fighting irelia feels that way. She Q dashes to you, gets to stun you. Deals you another Q worth of damage, and then just autos you to death while getting to ignore a big burst of damage." ....That...That isn't how irelia works at all. The hell? Her dash's cooldown doesn't get reset when she lands e. her e sets up a charge that allows irelia to dash to that champion and consume the mark rather than have her q on cooldown. Her damage reduction roots her, does minimal damage in compensation, and like i mention for I think the 4th time now, she only uses it if she's caught out. It isn't an alistar ulti, it's a last ditch effort.

Morde locks down irelia after she fails her combo because she has 0 forms of disengage. With a protobelt/gunblade with rylais, morde can stick onto irelia as she either tries to keep autoing or awkwardly walk away. I'm sure I made this clear multiple times, but I'll say it again. Irelia trades burst for mobility and disengage, many players complain about irelia because they die, and don't get to see how irelia survives in a teamfight after she bursts them down, similarly to how rengar does.

Lastly, the last point I want to make.

I mentioned Irelia because the person making this post in the first place use irelia as an example. I mentioned irelia because I figured that if i could tell everyone how to counterplay irelia, then they would realise that they could counterplay other frustrating champs, such as Darius, kaisa, yasuo, so on so forth. Taking that and expanding this to an irelia hate thread was not my intention at all, whatsoever. Furthermore, it appears, like many things in my argument, you completely ignored my very last statement saying to actually contribute to the argument, rather than babble on for the sake of being right. To make all my arguments here, I used internet statistics, actual gameplay experience, and have fought/played as irelia. I came here knowing why people are frustrated, and spoke in hopes we as a community adapt to different playstyles. What's worse is, if you truly are diamond, you should already know about this. This is the equivalent of faker complaining how late game nasus is so strong because he can 1 shot you with his Q. This is the equivilent of the time where LCS players were shown footage of kled gameplay, and the LCS players announced kled as a broken busted champion.

Stop bandwagoning for the sake to be right. I'm happy to be wrong in my statements, but prove to me how I'm wrong, just as I have to you. You can respond if you want, but I'm done repeating the same things over and over. I want intelligent conversation, rather than incomprehensible screaming.

GigglesODec 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Stop bandwagoning for the sake to be right. I'm happy to be wrong in my statements, but prove to me how I'm wrong, just as I have to you. You can respond if you want, but I'm done repeating the same things over and over. I want intelligent conversation, rather than incomprehensible screaming.

That is the thing, you bandwagon to defend. It is all subjective to skill, and experience. In my experience I don't have the issues you think I should with morde. You also assume I should be able to do things with morde that I can't, and as a top (percentile) morde main believe are impossible.

As far as I'm concerned your own comment refers to yourself.

"It should also be noted that 70+% of players are gold and below, and it's usually those players who complain"

You are one of those gold players.

I'm #116 Morde world, and have mained him since season 1. I know what I'm talking about. Come back when you have enough experience to say anything even remotely similar.

LordGeovanniDec 7, 20181 votes

That morde balance point isnt valid as me thinks that some champions cant kite morde????

GigglesODec 7, 20182 votes