@Riot Balance Team: Tahm Kench Feedback/Request - W Cooldown

Xeranis Azourael··3 votes·912 views

After having tested TK during Free Rotation, I found his W-Devour cooldown to be too long, even until mid to late-game, when you need to do more/multiple Devours back-to-back. I was wondering if W-Devour's cooldown could start counting down upon devouring a unit (but cannot be recast 'til after the devoured unit has been spat out, obviously), rather than starting cooldown after spitting it out. It would make casting W, combo-ing his other spells, & playing Tahm Kench overall, a lot smoother/intuitive & less underwhelming/unsatisfying.

Additionally, I also wanted to address the Minion Devour's lack of a Spit range indicator, but it's already been reported & brought to Meddler's attention, though I've yet to see the adjustment implemented/included in the latest Patch Notes. So I thought I'd include it here as a reminder.

As an aside.. I find it odd for TK to be able to AA/Tongue Lash while he's Devoured something/someone (not that I'm complaining), and am uncertain whether it is intended behavior, or not; and would just like to know if it's intended.

9 Comments

The Fast4 votes

The problem with this, is that with 40% CDR, Devour has a 6 second cooldown. And Tahm can have an ally in his mouth for 6 seconds. See where the problem starts?

Xeranis Azourael1 votes

But that's only true if 40%CdR is reached/attained 100% of the times, and that isn't always the case, even with Runes & Masteries, especially with certain damage-oriented (off-)builds. In cases when 40%CdR is achieved, damage output is usually sacrificed. He has to be played a certain way to reach 40%CdR, and it's usually not towards an affordable damage-oriented style.

Would you be willing to provide for me an optimal item build that provides 40%CdR, but doesn't sacrifice damage output (& is also inexpensive)? Also, optimal Runes & Masteries?

Leaf of the lake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Xeranis Azourael,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Amm1UEo,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-08-11T22:27:00.618+0000)

But that's only true if 40%CdR is reached/attained 100% of the times, and that isn't always the case, even with Runes & Masteries, especially with certain damage-oriented (off-)builds. In cases when 40%CdR is achieved, damage output is usually sacrificed. He has to be played a certain way to reach 40%CdR, and it's usually not towards an affordable damage-oriented style.

Would you be willing to provide for me an optimal item build that provides 40%CdR, but doesn't sacrifice damage output (& is also inexpensive)? Also, optimal Runes & Masteries?

Lucidity boots, scaling CDR blues, spirit visage. You now have 40% CDR, and I haven't even touched masteries.

Xeranis Azourael1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Leaf of the lake,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Amm1UEo,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-11T22:33:13.307+0000)

Lucidity boots, scaling CDR blues, spirit visage. You now have 40% CDR, and I haven't even touched masteries.

Say I prefer different boots, and I buy different MRes items to fit my affordable off-build; what do I go for then? (Already have the scaling CDR blues)

The Fast2 votes

Go Swifties, or at least that's what I do. Frozen Heart into Visage gives you 40% CDR with 5% runes and 5% masteries. Outside of those options, you have Banner of Command, Locket, Ohmwrecker if you are feeling frisky, Mikeal's if support, Twin Shadows or Athene's if going a bit more offensive, Any of the support gold generation items if support, and Iceborn. All of these can be fit in a build in some way or another to give Tahm all the defense and CDR he needs. Tahm certainly doesn't need literally every one of his items to give health.

Xeranis Azourael1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Knight Kore,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Amm1UEo,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-11T22:49:15.447+0000)

Go Swifties, or at least that's what I do. Outside of those options, you have Banner of Command, Locket, Ohmwrecker if you are feeling frisky, Athene's if going a bit more offensive, and Iceborn. All of these can be fit in a build in some way or another to give Tahm all the defense and CDR he needs. Tahm certainly doesn't need literally every one of his items to give health.

(^_^) Thanks! I already have them in my affordable off-build. However, what if the remaining items in my off-build don't provide health? How do I balance getting enough damage with 40%CdR, all while still being affordable? Cause like I've previously stated, affordable 40%CdR can be achieved, but at the cost of affordable raw damage output.

The Fast1 votes

Frozen Heart is basically the only item you can build to fill that quota. Its no HP, but the rest of your items can be HP, especially since they added a new armor/Hp item. Also visage is his best MR item, since it increases the healing from his E.

Leaf of the lake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Xeranis Azourael,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9Amm1UEo,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-11T22:41:00.589+0000)

Say I prefer different boots, and I buy different MRes items to fit my affordable off-build; what do I go for then? (Already have the scaling CDR blues)

I would argue visage is the best MR item on him because in addition to the CDR, it also boosts the healing from his E passive - and it synergizes with warmogs on top of that.

Boots are by far the easiest place to get CDR, but you could take a frozen heart if you prefer. You don't get health from it, but is that really such a big problem?

Xeranis Azourael1 votes

Ohk, I'll just cut to the chase. Here are the stats I'm trying to balance:

  • Health
  • AP
  • AS
  • MD
  • %CdR

And here's the closest affordable/"bang-for-my-buck" off-build I've been able to devise, that balances those stats.

  • Wit's End [50AS 30+MRes 42MD] Currently 2,600G, but will be reduced to 2,550G in the next patch.
  • Mejai's Soulstealer [20AP 160AP & 15%CdR @ max stacks (180AP) ] 1,400G
  • Guinsoo's Rageblade [30AD 40AP +32AS & AP @ max stacks (72AP) ] 2,590G
  • Glacial Shroud (Currently 950G, but will be reduced to 900G in the next patch) → Zeke's Harbinger [35A 10%CdR 50AP 250M]
  • Locket of the Iron Solari [20MRes 10%CdR 400H] Currently 2,800G, but will be reduced to 2,750G in the next patch.

That's roughly 10,190G (not counting 1 Gold item, Enchanted Boots, Stealth Ward Totem, upgrade to Zeke's, & any Elixirs I buy during late-game) Total stats are:

  • 400bonusH (2625 total Health)
  • 250M
  • 35A
  • 50+MRes
  • 302AP (17scalingAP Runes + 5%AP Masteries - 334.95AP total)
  • 30AD
  • 82AS (+15AS Runes + 5AS Masteries - 102AS total)
  • 42MD + R Passive: 20+16/24/32 bonus Health MD (78/86/94MD total)
  • 35%CdR (+15%scalingCdR Runes + 5%CdR from Masteries, so exceeding 40% in this particular case - 55%CdR total)
  • 6%MS (4.5%MS Runes + 1.5%MS Masteries)

And that's all under the assumption that I've farmed almost perfectly all match, have been fed a few kills due to an awesome lanemate, and that the game went on long enough that I was able to level up to Level 16 & reach full item build. And that isn't even taking build order into account, cause I won't have these stats during early game.

Even with 94MD at level 16, I still feel like I don't have enough affordable bonus Health. I can always keep buying Elixir of Ruin during late-game, to gain an additional 250H, for a total of 650 bonus Health (88/101/114MD), but I still feel like that (114MD) isn't enough..(?) I feel like I should be at 1,000 bonus Health (3225 total Health; 102/122/142MD) to deal enough magic damage. How much health is enough health for TK?

In the end, I'll have the 40+%CdR, but at the cost of Magic Damage (from bonus Health via R Passive). This is the balance act I've been referring to. If I try to go for more affordable Magic Damage/Health, it'll be at the cost of affordable %CdR, or at the cost of one of the other stats I'm trying to balance. There's always a trade-off; a stat I have to give up. Thing is, all the other stats are more important; and the only other place I can think of to alleviate the lack of %CdR is to target TK's W Cooldown, which would improve his gameplay feel, if adjusted to go off earlier, upon devouring, rather than after spitting out.

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