Dumb MMR

Thor123xyz·Mar 14, 2019·1 votes·1,476 views

I'm silver 3 support main and because of this stupid mmr system you can't stop losing. I gain about 13-15 lp per win and lose 20 on a loss, how is this even plausible? Losing matches isn't something you can't not do, it's part of the game. Increase and decrease in mmr shouldn't be based on win or lose alone, and because of the split positions that riot tested out, people who sold games were a lot more frequent. Being a support main and climbing out of bronze is rough, yet the mmr decrease per loss really adds in that last bit of "f you" to all support mains. It's as if riot is telling us not to play support unless you'll make it out of bronze during placements, which is hard considering how people enjoy selling your placements and promos. I doubt I am the first person to bring this up, or the last, so why doesn't riot just remove or change the mmr system so it's not so garbage?

16 Comments

Kai GuyMar 14, 20192 votes

Look. Elo and MMR systems are well documented and provably functional.

Split positions has issues. Prior to that, Duoing has issues.

End of the day the main thing that holds a player back is their skill and consistency.

That's it.

Pandemic PunchMar 14, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=8ibJ2PLw,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-03-14T05:00:53.930+0000)

Look. Elo and MMR systems are well documented and provably functional.

Split positions has issues. Prior to that, Duoing has issues.

End of the day the main thing that holds a player back is their skill and consistency.

That's it.

I wouldn't write him off that easily. There has to be some merit to it. Before ranked got changed back I was winning 18 lp and losing 16 lp. This was in the top lane position where I had above 80 wins and somewhere around 60 losses.

After the ranked system was changed back, I am gaining 14 lp and losing 20 lp. I have a positive win rate and am still currently on a big winning streak.

Thor123xyzMar 14, 20191 votes

I went through silver 4 with only 2 loses yet my mmr is that of a bronze player, before the change I was doing about the same as you. It's mainly because my losses grew a lot while I used tahm kench in bronze, it wasn't fun.

Kai GuyMar 14, 20191 votes

@Silver 4 climb. What matters more is your MMR when your going thru the division because there's no guarantee players in a division have a corsponding MMR. Folks falling will have a higher Rank then their MMR. Folks climbing have a lower Rank then their MMR.

Hence why you see LP adjustments tied to your accounts MMR.

Over all. Your accounts starting this season fresh. Starting MMR value got changed this season, the starting mmr is now in Iron.

Your floating at almost 200 games with a 48% win rate. You can blame not being good at Tahm if you want but ultimately your the guy who put in 91 matches on a champion you hit a 43% rate on.

Understand that no one made you play 91 games of TahmKench . You picked him. You played him. End result was a 43% win rate over almost 100 games.

In any game its not you then the very worst player is favored to be on the other team. The most common response to me saying this is "But that means the best player or smurfs are favored to be on the other team" Yea... but that admits that your self aware your not exceptionally more skilled then your current mmr. As your on your team 100% of games so now your favored every match.

To say you cant climb because of bad players is flawed, your favored to get more wins then losses from them. To say you should climb despite not being notably better then your mmr is flawed. If your around the average level of skill in a MMR then your in a workable range for matchmaker and its going to only be RNG of teammates that decide matches unless you improve or change.

You also shot yourself in the foot. K factor is the variable used in Elo's adjustment that represents uncertainty. It traditionally gets lower in MMR systems as the # of games you play increases.

Using Elo's work as a base most adjustment tends to look like some variation of this. New MMR = Old MMR + K factor (Achieved Results - Expected Results)

Theres a lot of Tweaks devs can make to this.

The reason so many folks think ELO cant work for League is because they replace a individual player in the adjustment with a team. This falls apart because not all players have the same stake in a match. At the very least you need to account for K factors being individual to individual. So at the end of a game MMR adjustments are ran 10 times, Each player is tracked individually.

So you spent a lot of time playing. You did not achieve great results. You burned the time where you account was considered "highly uncertain" skill by the system.

Your MMR gains and losses are going to be weaker then a fresh account. To climb more rapidly, Your still gonna have to get to a point your accounts MMR > current Tier. Keep your 60% Taric win rate and you will see your LP gains shift to be much higher on wins and lower on losses.

Its not a complicated system end of the day. Win more then you lose and climb. Lose more then you win and fall.

Thor123xyzMar 15, 20191 votes

If you look at my games as tahm kench, my games were far from being bad. The adcs and other teammates were negative though. Everyone has an off game once in a while, but what type of person pulls the off game team over 50% of the time?

Kai GuyMar 15, 20191 votes

In a ranked system that only cares about if your winning or losing then going 42% out of almost 100 games is bad.

Your the one making the choice to play your picks. The results are on you. If its proven your unable to impact a match with something your playing then you can focus on improving and getting better until your able to carry or switch to something that's more rewarding.

Your clearly showing your better at using taric in your current MMR. If you did not waste a bunch of time failing to climb playing Tham then you would be higher on the ladder.

Instead you wasted time playing something you provably struggle climb on. You burned out your K factor, and you dunked your MMR to be lower values with the -15 game deficit you built on Tham.

Your responsible for your picks. If you cant climb on a pick and keep doing it the one to blame is yourself. Not the Random teammates or opponents.

Its not enough to not be bad. You have to do good. You need to make impact, being run of the mill for a MMR means your going to rubber band in that range, completely at the mercy of if you get a bad opponent or strong teammate to win.

Don't play things with low impact for wins. Keep tabs on your win rate as you climb.

Kai GuyMar 14, 20191 votes

Starting MMR value was changed this year. That's going to throw the entire ladder down. With enough participation and run time your going to see the entire ranked ladder shift into lower MMR then prior seasons because of the new start point.

End of the day, with the skill and time one can still climb the ladder.

TheUrbanKitsuneMar 14, 20191 votes

Hey! Fellow support main here. :D Took a look at your op.gg and it would seem you're currently sitting at an overal 47% winrate, this is probably the cause of your low LP gains. I'm not sure what you mean by matches being 'sold'. As hard as it may seem to be able to climb on support I feel the need to bring up that players do climb for a reason. Improve your play and you'll probably fix your mmr and winrate, and subsequently it should be easier to climb.

Thor123xyzMar 14, 20191 votes

By "sold" I meant that players purposefully int during matches which leads to losses in game, therefor "selling" the win.

Kai GuyMar 14, 20192 votes

That's normally called grieving. Still man, Stat wise the odds FAVOR you to win if there is a toxic AF troll in a game. your 1/5 your teams slots. 4 remain. 5 are open for the other team. Play enough matches balance out luck with law of large numbers and its clear to see that at the end of the day your going to have more wins from toxic players and baddies then losses.

Your odds for winning from "sold" games are better then many Casino games. House always wins and if your not toxic af or trolling constantly your favored.

MY TEAMAMTE WAS BAD is not a valid argument for why you cant climb on your own. your gonna get more wins of baddies then losses.

Thor123xyzMar 14, 20191 votes

I think you're missing what I was pointing out, I never said I can't climb I am saying the mmr system is making it harder than it needs to be to climb

Kai GuyMar 15, 20191 votes

Checking your Season 9 Op.GG champions Tab.

With out Taric. 47 wins and 76 losses.

Adding in Taric. 98 wins to 110 losses.

Your still looking at a -12 game deficit to balance losses and wins.

You wasted a lot of your time when you had a High K factor. Once that lowered then your gonna be sitting closer to what ever MMR you had when it gets reduced.

How exactly do you blame riot for this? Your good with Taric . Riot did not make you not play him thou you decided to do that. With out taric your sitting on 47 to 76.

Does that sound like something a player should be climbing with?

Thor123xyzMar 15, 20191 votes

If you can climb out of bronze with tahm kench when your adc doesn't know how to cs or poke please show me how you did it, because I had considerably great games with tahm just like I can do the same with taric, the only difference is tahm requires a good team because at the end of the day, he's a 1v1 support, not a 5v1 support.

Kai GuyMar 15, 20191 votes

Same way you climb with any champion. Your better at the game and mechanics to the point your impact enables you to consistently pull weight to win matches.

As a support main id probably look for places to roam if my adc is trash or communicate with jungler and mid that our lane needs some help if they want to keep the enemy bot in check.

For Tham kench. Id play him top in bronze over support.

The easier method to climb bronze is swap to a champion who has less struggles making impact or requires teammates competence. God knows how many times Thresh have screamed USE THE LANTERN in low Elo.

End of the day your going to consistently find lower skill players in lower skill mmrs. That should be your expectation, that's the norm. This years is more chaotic because riot changed the starting MMR so its gonna suck and have some massive mismatches.

Prior years anything under silver had to lose MMR to get there.

Thor123xyzMar 15, 20191 votes

I don't understand what you're trying to say here, how can you balance out luck with large numbers when 1 of your teammates is trolling? That's basically 4v6ing, now the enemy has a huge number advantage, and full build 30 minutes into the game.

Kai GuyMar 15, 20191 votes

1 match is not of significance to climbing the ladder. Riots stated numbers a few years back are they expect about 150 to 300 games for the assigned MMR value of an account to become fairly accurate representation of the Range of skill.

If you have a Troll in a hypothetical match the fact is odds favor you. Statistically they will end up on the other team more often then not.

So, If a troll = insta loss end of the day by playing enough matches then statistically your going to have a net gain from trolls. As all you need to climb is more wins then losses

Now if your abusive in chat and tilt your allies constantly that's a separate story. How ever the easy fix for this is to not be abusive. Un tilted teammates are good. Keeping folks calm and focused on the win is a good use of your time as a support.