Can someone please explain to me why some items destroy meaningful weaknesses?

Busty Demoness··2 votes·576 views

Two great examples are Deadman's Plate and Black Cleaver. Both are designed for juggernauts; but both include mobility, something that is supposed to be a major weakness of juggernauts.

I can tolerate DMP's slowing effect but the addition of up to 60 flat movement speed makes it much harder to kite the juggernauts, something that was SUPPOSED to be their major weakness. It's so bad that the juggernaut will typically still run up to you and smack you not just for bonus damage, but also for a major slow that keeps you locked in their range. When combined with Black Cleaver, most juggernauts/bruisers/fighters can now perma stick to you.

Another prime example is Duskblade. Assassins now get to bypass wards with ease, which was the major means of preventing them from getting on top as quickly by adding notice.

If you're going to say classes have meaningful weaknesses, stop designing items for those classes that cover said weaknesses.

17 Comments

LyingOnLine2 votes

Because itemizing to cover some weaknesses (DMP allows for initiation, BC and other phage procs to contest) means that other weaknesses (damage, GW, sustain) go uncovered.

Also, because mobility and range are the two single most powerful attributes in League, and champions who by design have neither in their kits need some way of dealing with champs who do.

Busty Demoness1 votes

Dunno, Black Cleaver covers damage pretty well with % armor shred.

DMP also grants a burst of added damage plus a powerful 1 second slow to keep them in range.

LyingOnLine2 votes

DMP’s damage and slow are negligible.

Cleaver does damage, yes. Because it often (always) has to fill the role of sole damage item on champs who buy it.

Jorencice1 votes

Or.. we add 10x more items to cover all the weaknesses and positives so cookie cutter builds finally go away. I.e. dota2

Mortekaiser1 votes

DMP and black cleaver aren't even particularly good right now. champs that have to build those aren't doing very well at the moment

Azadethe1 votes

Actually they're dominant among the players who actually play them.

Garen Has a 54% win rate among people who play more than 50 games with him.

Sion 56% above 50 games.

Gnar 54% above 50 games, 60% above 200 games.

Darius 56% above 50 games, 57% at 100+ games.

JarvanIV 56% above 50 games, above 60% at 200 games.

Kled 56% Above 50 games,

Shen 54%

There isn't a single core champ who uses Deadman's that isn't at a 54+% win rate when played by someone who knows that champ.

LyingOnLine2 votes

Now try that metric for...oh, every champ.

You’ll find it doesn’t vary that much between champs who use Deadman’s and those who don’t.

Azadethe1 votes

Yes and no. Duskblade was pushing some Assassins to a 60% proficiency. Hextech Gunblade puts Akali at 56%.

However, there's some champs that actually get LOWER win rates as playership goes on, because their kits generally have nothing to do with skill, like Amumu Anivia Ashe Bard Blitzcrank Chogath ..... to name a few... all fall off after played into proficiency (Cho actually has a 44.5% win rate among people who have more than 200 games with him, while the overall average is 50.21%..... meaning itemization doesn't support Cho always being statistically high).

There's a lot of champs like this who start to scale back to 50% win rates or worse after played a lot. The ones I mentioned don't. They plateau at a high rate.

Mortekaiser2 votes

{quoted}

Actually they're dominant among the players who actually play them.

Garen Has a 54% win rate among people who play more than 50 games with him.

Sion 56% above 50 games.

Gnar 54% above 50 games, 60% above 200 games.

Darius 56% above 50 games, 57% at 100+ games.

JarvanIV 56% above 50 games, above 60% at 200 games.

Kled 56% Above 50 games,

Shen 54%

There isn't a single core champ who uses Deadman's that isn't at a 54+% win rate when played by someone who knows that champ.

you didn't disprove what I said

garen is trash sion is overtuned. also rarely builds deadmans and never should be building black cleaver gnar is shitty to play against, and him having a low winrate makes me smile. I still ban him because he's wholly unfun to play against. he builds black cleaver and not deadmans darius is shitty right now. just plays with phase rush and ghost and tries to cheese. his buffs made him better, but in the end, he's still darius. jarvan doesn't build black cleaver very often. and doesn't really build deadmans ever. if he's building BC he's desperate and its just not a good item on him kled builds BC but not deadmans. not in a particularly good place right now shen doesn't build deadmans. BC is a cheese item on him. he would prefer titanic over either BC or deadmans

those champs just either stomp idiots (garen/darius/kled), stonewall the lane (shen/gnar), or do other shit entirely (jarvan goes jungle)

my initial point stands: deadmans/BC are bad items at the moment. the champs you listed aren't terribly good right now. other champs build better items and do better with those items.

Smitemuffin1 votes

DMP loses almost all its speed right after you hit them once.

Busty Demoness1 votes

When the user hits someone, yes. Meanwhile, that also applies a major slow and nuke keeping you in their range.

HaIlMonitor1 votes

Depending who you are, if you get close enough to auto a garen you probably will die. He will just Q slap you, spin, ult BAM you died before you could do anything other then destroy dead mans.

Mordepool1 votes

DMP doesn't overcome the weakness of kiting it helps. you still have to ramp to get MS/stacks It has Counterplay built into the item. Losing stacks and MS from being CCd.

If you can't work around it that's in you. If you want to complain about no counterplay items there are alot easier targets__

Busty Demoness1 votes

What amazes me more right now is that nobody has contested Duskblade's vision control.

Also, it still mitigates the weakness of kiting given that stacks are lost more quickly with an outright immobilization while slows do less to reduce the stacks.

Azadethe1 votes

Nice comment in theory. In reality, the OP's right. Dead man's only needs 4 seconds out of combat to reset, at which point Dead man's users outrun all but the highest move speed buffed teams, unless they too have dead man's.

There aren't to many champs who can stick to a DMP user consistently enough to put most Juggernauts on cooldown. Karma maybe? Sona with a Iceborne? You need true long distance spam in most cases to really deactivate it, especially since all move slow proccing items have been nerfed to being negligible.

Colton1471 votes

item 3123 item 3033 item 3165 item 3076 item 3075 summoner 14

DrMundo item 3070

woodvsmurph1 votes

juggernauts are not supposed to be weak due to lack of mobility. They can be cc'd and kited IF you have cc. That is a weakness yes. But low movespeed? No. Morde has that due to them trying to force him into adc role and it needs to be fixed so he has movespeed appropriate for a solo laner again.

Yeah a juggernaut will should pretty much 1v1 most champs in the game if they can get on said champ and stick to them. Just like an adc will deal highest dps in teamfights due to range and peeling - unless they get caught and deleted.

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