Who here remembers how long it took to balance Kassadin? Why did Riot give up so easily with Varus?

Icely·May 20, 2018·10 votes·3,934 views

Kassadin was a mage that offered a very unique (yet inherently broken) playstyle: a mobility monster. And it took a very (VERY) long time to balance him, but around the end of S5/start of S6 he was finally in a place that offered its players his strengths yet in a way that allowed for counterplay.

Why was Varus gutted so quickly despite having once offered a unique role as a poke-oriented AD carry, and instead turned into a boring on-hit demon and nerfed at that role until he became an inherently bad champion? Why wasn't he nurtured and properly balanced to maintain his original poke ADC identity, so that he could still be a balanced champion yet maintain his unique role in the game; just as Kassadin did?

20 Comments

KhristophorosMay 20, 20188 votes

Kassadin is a ruined champion.

Teridax68May 20, 20183 votes

I wish he got another pass. He has awesome potential to fulfil his fantasy, but has had such heavy restrictions imposed on him that it always feels like he's being hamstrung, even when he's statistically quite strong. Meanwhile, we now have plenty more champions in the game with tremendous mobility, including superior roaming (e.g. Quinn, who doesn't even feel that amazing either), in-combat mobility (e.g. most melee carries), and so on, without the same kind of costs imposed on them. On top of that, he has this confused, fairly mediocre mix of durability, CC and burst, none of which stands out all that well. I feel if Riot tried to focus him much more on dodging spells via his blink and absorbing their power to fuel his burst, with perhaps more counterplay to the latter, rather than just a ton of different gates, he could perhaps end up feeling a lot better, and could certainly afford to blink around without having to pay ridiculous mana costs after a certain number of casts.

LordGeovanniMay 21, 20181 votes

Yep because they changed his silence to a disrupt but there are no spells to disrupt on squishy champions because they all cry about clunkyness. Is there anyone squishy other than Xerath and Velkoz that his q works on that just regular damage doesnt stop. it should totally disrupt Zoe 's q but it doesnt same with her ult

KhristophorosMay 21, 20181 votes

I think these are all the champs he can interrupt:

Anivia AurelionSol Caitlyn Fiddlesticks Janna Jhin Karthus Katarina Malzahar MissFortune Nunu Shen Sion Pantheon TwistedFate Velkoz Warwick Xerath Varus

But it's still lame

DW DianaMay 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I think these are all the champs he can interrupt:

But it's still lame

That's a fair few champions...

KhristophorosMay 21, 20182 votes

It is, but Kassadin's Q is still the least satisfying ability in the game.

DW DianaMay 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

It is, but Kassadin's Q is still the least satisfying ability in the game.

You mean the point and click poke, silence and shield? This is THE ability that allows him to bully mages through laning phase. kass isn't really weak, he's just mage to counter champions that are rarely seen anymore.

KhristophorosMay 21, 20182 votes

It does not silence. It interrupts channels. Big difference.

It's an effective harassment tool in lane that gives him an edge in trades with mages and that's about the only thing that's good about it. And it's not fun to use. That harass pattern is very boring.

Other than that it's just a button you press in his combo when you burst somebody. It's probably the most boring ability in the game since it's a point and click purely used for damage aside from niche situations where the shield or interrupt matters.

It was pretty satisfying when it was actually a silence simply because it acted as a check against a lot of champions in teamfights. That enemy Riven cannot simply engage in a teamfight just because she feels like it, because I'm there and I will silence her. But now it's like... yeah ok.

DW DianaMay 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

It does not silence. It interrupts channels. Big difference.

MB, always thought it was a silence

It's an effective harassment tool in lane that gives him an edge in trades with mages and that's about the only thing that's good about it. And it's not fun to use. That harass pattern is very boring.

But effective for a champion that needs to melee minions to maintain mana

Other than that it's just a button you press in his combo when you burst somebody. It's probably the most boring ability in the game since it's a point and click purely used for damage aside from niche situations where the shield or interrupt matters.

It gives a good shield, is point and click damage that scales well. Not sure what else you could be wanting...

It was pretty satisfying when it was actually a silence simply because it acted as a check against a lot of champions in teamfights. That enemy Riven cannot simply engage in a teamfight just because she feels like it, because I'm there and I will silence her. But now it's like... yeah ok.

I wouldn't mind it being a silence, as I said I thought it WAS a silence, but I still wouldn't say it was a bad ability, just not as good as I thought.

LordGeovanniMay 21, 20181 votes

the few part is absolutely right

DW DianaMay 20, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Kassadin was a mage that offered a very unique (yet inherently broken) playstyle: a mobility monster. And it took a very (VERY) long time to balance him, but around the end of S5/start of S6 he was finally in a place that offered its players his strengths yet in a way that allowed for counterplay.

Why was Varus gutted so quickly despite having once offered a unique role as a poke-oriented AD carry, and instead turned into a boring on-hit demon and nerfed at that role until he became an inherently bad champion? Why wasn't he nurtured and properly balanced to maintain his original poke ADC identity, so that he could still be a balanced champion yet maintain his unique role in the game; just as Kassadin did?

KassaWHO? Oh yeah, you mean that guy that has had a below 50% winrate for months and was built to counter mages, those guys you barely see outside of pro play? Like Malzahar? You remember; the guy riot sent back to the void so Kassadin could put his feet up for a bit and get to know Kai'sa?

Yeah I remember Kassadin, and I miss him.

IcelyMay 20, 20181 votes

You never see him in pro play because they are too tunneled on "meta" picks to attempt anything even slightly deviant. Example: NA vs Yasuo mid at MSI 2018.

He is very strong against certain champions and compositions and very weak against others. Also, he is a champion that rewards restraint; something a lot of Kassadin players lack, so that negatively inflates the win rate.

Assassins have inherently flawed playstyles because, unless they counter a composition very well, they will always lose assuming perfect play due to the nature of assassins preying on the mistakes of their opponents; so if an assassin has a winrate of over 50% in high elo they're generally overtuned.

DW DianaMay 20, 20183 votes

{quoted}

You never see him in pro play because they are too tunneled on "meta" picks to attempt anything even slightly deviant. Example: NA vs Yasuo mid at MSI 2018.

He is very strong against certain champions and compositions and very weak against others. Also, he is a champion that rewards restraint; something a lot of Kassadin players lack, so that negatively inflates the win rate.

Assassins have inherently flawed playstyles because, unless they counter a composition very well, they will always lose assuming perfect play due to the nature of assassins preying on the mistakes of their opponents; so if an assassin has a winrate of over 50% in high elo they're generally overtuned.

Lol Kassadin WAS in LCS, quite a lot actually on the EU side, but that was when mages were more then just supports. I only started playing him about 3 weeks before the first clash beta and found a fair amount of success on him (about 60% winrate) so I do hear you, but he is strong because his passive is essentially 30 bonus MR+, meaning he can safely trade poke out mages with Q, and maintain mana with W.

Assassin's on the other hand are snowballers that destroy Kassadin. I wouldn't say they are overtuned at the moment personally, I'd say that mages are underpowered. I know it's a fine line, and balance is always hard to maintain, but as a Malzahar main, I feel if riot had of listened to those that play him (including several pro players) then they would have been able to make him viable without him being a walking ult.

I wasn't complaining about assassin on the whole, just explaining that the current assassin meta is TERRIBLE for Kassadin, and the nerfs didn't help. I play Diana into assassins and laugh at most of them trying to fight me through my W, and it's only gong to get worse for them next patch when she gets hail of blades, ultimate hunter, and nimbus cloak, but that isn't to say their ability to snowball harder then anyone else in the game isn't a cause for concern when everyone else is being nerfed so hard.

LordGeovanniMay 21, 20181 votes

Mages are more than just supports versus everyone except adcs. They are the second best non support class in the game.

ReshiKillimMay 20, 20182 votes

You mean Kassadin, who still holds the record for the highest banrate of all time, the guy who had an easily spammed point and click CC with good damage on low cooldown, was hyper mobile, and countered the majority of all champions in the game until they removed part of his kit?

I remember him, and I don't.

DW DianaMay 20, 20183 votes

{quoted}

You mean Kassadin, who still holds the record for the highest banrate of all time, the guy who had an easily spammed point and click CC with good damage on low cooldown, was hyper mobile, and countered the majority of all champions in the game until they removed part of his kit?

I remember him, and I don't.

I guess you missed the part about mages being dicked leaving him wrecked, not the nerfs that balanced him.

saltranMay 20, 20182 votes

Varus just spamming Q's from beyond a screen abusing lethality items was horrible imo, I rather the current Varus where he has to swap between aa's and Q and E to break the W charges and most important: actually be in the fight to do dmg and skill to kite properly and not just shoot practice from 1000 range as his main dmg.

remakoroMay 20, 20183 votes

I would much prefer old Q spamming varus than this mobile fortress that just goes and melts anybody that tries to approach him.

LordGeovanniMay 21, 20181 votes

thats any adc really. The w stack activate playstyle is better healthier and requires more skill but the output shouldnt be as high as it is now in either situation.

LordGeovanniMay 21, 20181 votes

Varus shit was toxic because his arrow was super long range and basicly true damage. because it penetrated so much