Why are Kog and Vayne still pretty strong early game?

Trap or a Trick·Nov 14, 2017·32 votes·2,139 views

their mid game is absolutely godlike too, and unbeatable late game. alright...

36 Comments

Dasdi96Nov 14, 20178 votes

Vayne 's "weak" early game is a complete myth. On this board I saw a clip of a Vayne do more than 50% of a word's hp at level 1 with 3 autos.

MistaFarenheitNov 14, 20171 votes

so you saw a vayne start w and proc its % hp true damage lvl 1. eh, i do think vayne is alittle stronger than people give her credit for tbh, trist and kog can kinda surprise you too but i honestly feel like if you trade properly and poke them out they are weak. i hate playing against vayne as jinx but if she cant handle the wave properly or my support is an aggressive player then im pretty comfortable shitting on her with the superior range and wave control. you just dont think "oh vayne is weak early so we just all in lvl 1 ez" thats almost never going to work unless either her or her support are 100% retarded.

just to clarify: both supports and your control over the wave are key to beating these champions early and keeping them beaten.

EkyonKunNov 14, 201710 votes

Vayne started Q, not W, in that clip. Not that I have much to add to that, but I saw it as well. Take that for what you will.

Starcraft243verNov 14, 20171 votes

Well, most of the adc would do the same with a spell and 3 autos. Vayne early is weak because of her low range. She can't poke safely.

PB4UAMENov 14, 20174 votes

She has a repositioning tool, bonus ms to get in, and average ADC range. She used to have 450 range a while back, and actually be short range, but hasn't been that way for literally years.

Starcraft243verNov 15, 20171 votes

When people say "vayne has a low range" it means she has no ability to damage enemies or take farm from further away as most adc do.

PB4UAMENov 18, 20171 votes

She still has more range than most champions. She flat out does not have short range. If anything she has medium-long range, and the average for ADCs.

ThefrostyvikingNov 14, 20171 votes

Dude the issue was not Vayne there.

I did math on that, the result?

Nearly any ranged champ running the same setup as the Vayne did would have done the same or more damage to the morde there.

A mage would have to throw in a spell, but that is easy since mordekaiser is literally among the slowest champs in this game.

This because due to starting dark seal and running full damage runes that mordekaiser was basically a melee mage, a champ that deals AP damage, can burst at 6, but is squishy as a stress ball.

So yah......there you have it, issue is not really vayne, it's melee lacking defenses in this new system.

DuskDaUmbreonNov 14, 20172 votes

...To clarify, you mean a ward's HP, right? This is a joke?

Great OzymandiusNov 14, 20171 votes

Vayne's weak early game was always due to unfavorable matchups being meta. Many marksmen, like cait, can abuse vayne's short range, giving vayne a terrible laning phase. Cait and other counters aren't as strong now and runes are busted on vayne, so vayne is strong right now.

KwattigorNov 14, 20174 votes

They arnt strong early vayne way less mobile early and super low range kog med range early 0 mobilty and both have some of lowest base hp of all champs dont zombie push and freeze wave by ur side of lane and zone them

mosaickleNov 14, 20172 votes

I might just be a terrible Kog with bad luck but, Nautilus support (which seems to be quite popular all of a sudden) easily bullied me out of lane early game. I have a sneaking suspicion that it has something to do with rune cheese but one encounter with him easily cut down 50% to 60% of my HP.

Probably because Kog has no mobility, especially compared to Vayne but I dunno about her. All I know is that I rerolled a Kog skin, went in to use that skin, came back traumatized by my own lack of skill.

[sg-miss-fortune]

KoggyStyleNov 14, 20172 votes

ive always hated nuat.....

MistaFarenheitNov 14, 20172 votes

its mostly the support and wave management that make them seem strong, and yea support naut can legit walk into lane and 1v2 for some reason...

makkiiNov 14, 20174 votes

{quoted}

its mostly the support and wave management that make them seem strong, and yea support naut can legit walk into lane and 1v2 for some reason...

I love how support actually being relevant and exacerbating adc's longstanding overtunedness some how equates to "supports OP adc's no problem K." It's like y'all think a balanced support would just be some giant floating emoticon that follows the adc around showering them with heart shape emojis.

MistaFarenheitNov 14, 20177 votes

all i said was its alittle crazy that nautilus can beat your ass 1v2 at lvl 1.

makkiiNov 14, 20172 votes

{quoted}

all i said was its alittle crazy that nautilus can beat your ass 1v2 at lvl 1.

That was only half of your statement, the other half being "the reason so and so adc's are so oppressive is ACTUALLY because of supports." Which is literally the same argument every adc dickrider uses, despite it making about as much sense as Rachel Maddow on a bad day.

MistaFarenheitNov 14, 20176 votes

i said support and wave management, meaning not respecting the support or a huge minion wave could possibly be the reason youre getting shit on early by vayne and kogmaw.

MistaFarenheitNov 14, 20174 votes

and since when was support not relevant? ive been starting with a goddamn relic shield just to get my friggin support fed for the past few months. why so hostile? try reading the entire statement and understanding what it means before you throw a tantrum.

mosaickleNov 14, 20173 votes

{quoted}

all i said was its alittle crazy that nautilus can beat your ass 1v2 at lvl 1.

Even if he dies and both you and your supp survives, the amount he's still able to chunk you is a bit absurd for early levels.

ADC is my worst role but I can relate to any ADC being a supp main

MistaFarenheitNov 14, 20171 votes

i dont really mind naut overall. hes basically just like blitz if you think about it, in lane anyway. dodge the hook and youre fine. get hooked youre probably dead. his ulti is alittle better for chasing making you play much further back post 6 but a good sustain support can enable you to poke him down and atleast come out ahead in trades even tho youre stuck under tower trying to slow freeze the wave.

mosaickleNov 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

i dont really mind naut overall. hes basically just like blitz if you think about it, in lane anyway. dodge the hook and youre fine.

Doesn't help if you're Kog since he can literally walk up to you, either land an AA for the snare or use his slow for the snare, once you get snared he's got a guaranteed hook. And that's just to name the CC, he takes little to no damage even when you try to kite from it since his shield. Also Kog's slow at rank 1 doesn't really slow that much either (20%).

Unless you have a hardcore peeler honestly you're pretty much gone.

I know that's just Kog/any completely immobile ADC against Nautilus but I happen to like ADCs who happen to not have mobility...e.g. Ashe, Varus, not really Kog'Maw anymore

Welp, at least I actually don't need to play them at all since I'm currently a supp player lmeo

vgamedudeNov 14, 20172 votes

because ADCs are not allowed to not be elder god tier

ModWulf HelhammerNov 14, 20172 votes

.....

Have you ever played either of them?

McsquzzyNov 14, 20171 votes

I suck at Kog but normally by 11 I feel like a Bonafide tryndamere main with how easy it is to melt people with right click

Trap or a TrickNov 14, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Wolf King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7vXMQglr,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-11-14T06:41:46.051+0000)

.....

Have you ever played either of them?

https://gyazo.com/1f978f242e9d57952fbca7f77f4eed24.png

ModWulf HelhammerNov 14, 20172 votes

You play AP Kog'Maw and Trinity Force Vayne, and your scores on her usually are pretty bad for someone claiming they are OP.

hhaavviikkNov 14, 20172 votes

same reason other ADC's are, riot favors them.

ThefrostyvikingNov 14, 20172 votes

Vayne and kog are legit weak early.

Compared to other marksmen x)

But i myself find her scary any time post 6 and i sincerely hope she can be nerfed to be weak until lvl 10 something.

She scales a tad bit too fast, and is too good at self peel and dueling.

Kog is a walking guntower, that pops like a balloon if someone goes in to burst him unless a support uses everything and he heals.

He also does not do so much damage with his W down.

NekoniClawsNov 14, 20171 votes

Because their damage is balanced around scaling insanely well with attack speed, which you used to farm from 15 / 20 minutes to have access to any of. They now have immediate access to AS above that level (80%), for one brief moment, via runes. For Vayne: Imagine Jinx's "get excited" passive - but with Vayne's silver bolts added on. It's plenty enough to kill their opponent, and then they'll have pernament attack speed added via their other rune.

To compound issues, this damage is basically burst damage (in that it's hard to counter / reposition around) it's more reliable than crit. You need to hard CC, poke, or stick to 1/2 auto trades. (Same goes for Tristana)

DuskDaUmbreonNov 14, 20171 votes

Because they're not?

The only time those two are strong in early are when their opponents are retarded enough to sit there and let them beat them, or when their support practically spoon-feeds them the kills.

And if you can't beat them late-game, try using a gap-closer with hard CC. Ahri is a personal favorite for taking against them, given that she can easily get in and blow them up.

RexxieeNov 14, 20171 votes

Vayne is dumpster early game and so is kog when his W is down and before he finishes his first item.

WolfChasesNov 14, 20171 votes

Kog and Vayne only? List me here ONE SINGLE adc that has really really weak early game? Even Twitch whos supposed to be the weakest of all isnt actually weak.

General TherittNov 14, 20171 votes

Its called play a CC lockdown tank. They can't hit things when they can't move, attack, CC, exist... you know. Ornn, Galio, Thresh, Blitzcrank, Leona, Braum, Malphite, Maokai, and nautilus are all great choices. Pick up a tank toplaner, support, or jungler today! [galio-happy]