[Discussion] What do you do when your champion pool becomes FotM?

MrBuffington··1 votes·1,100 views

Hey Everyone,

So I wanted to talk about how y'all adjust to the meta as it changes, namely what happens when your champions become super popular to the point where they're constantly being picked or banned against you. On one hand, you know these champions well, which helps you play against them to a certain extent, but it becomes difficult (for me, at least), when you're forced onto a third or fourth string pick, who you can't play particularly well, and can't beat your opponent because of limitations on your own skill with the champion you're playing, even though you generally know how to beat your main champions. Just wondering how y'all approach this problem; do you pick up another, similar champion? Do you just practice with your other champions? What if those champions are weak at the moment, or require a high skill cap that you can't quite adapt to fast enough? The next section is going to discuss my situation in particular, and will discuss the ADC role specifically.

For me, I've started playing some ranked team 5s in the ADC role, mostly because it was open but also since ADC is one of my stronger if not strongest role right now (in large part due to the fact that my two ADCs, Tristana and Jinx, are really powerful in the current meta). My struggle right now is exactly that; both my ADCs are sort of FotM picks, which means having them picked away from me or banned out is somewhat common.

What I want is a good third or second string ADC (mostly since I'm not comfortable playing Jinx into Tristana). I've never really played ADC too much in the past until somewhat recently (when I learned to CS better), so my ADC champion pool is pretty slim (aside from these two, it's just Ashe, Sivir, Draven, then oddball picks like Teemo or Twisted Fate, who I'm not going to play ADC). I've played some Sivir with mixed success, where her mana costs, low range, and lack of hyper-carry ability generally make her difficult to play currently. I've had fun playing Ashe, but I can only orb-walk so well and the lack of good escape or a team that can/will peel for you is really hard on her, in my experience. Draven is the only other traditional ADC I own, and my axe-catching mechanics aren't quite up to par (I can CS okay while moving, but fighting is rough; I'm still practicing good positioning in team fights, adding the axe mechanic is a bit much for my level of experience at the moment). Ashe and Sivir aren't particularly strong at the moment, and neither of them have strong mobility/escape (Sivir can block one spell, and her ult is on such a long cooldown it's easy to punish; Ashe may be able to kite an opponent or two, maybe stun and slow a group of enemies, but can't exactly run away for long). Draven is still strong, though I'm not good enough at catching axes for him to be fun (I don't like how little room for error there is for you to animation cancel to guide your axes, I will probably play him more once I get better at orb-walking, until then, it's frustrating to drop axes).

As far as champions I'm looking at:

Twitch : Another hypercarry sort of champion, similar to Tristana or Jinx, who's heavily auto attack dependent (oddly enough something I've really liked in ADCs). My main concern is that his nerfs hit him hard, but he is a champion that I've had fun playing in the past. I also wonder how he would fare against Tristana, since that's probably the main match up I would pull him out against.

KogMaw : Yet another hypercarry, pretty underused and isn't likely to get banned. However, he lacks a real escape, as well as having a pretty short AA range without W, and is getting a few swats with the nerf bat lately. He's also pretty vulnerable without team support, which is probably why he isn't played in solo Q as much as he is in professional play. He can make up for the lack of mobility with the super long range, though, and once you get Phage you become a lot more mobile.

Ezreal : Sort of an iffy champion for me, since I like the safety of a hypercarry (ie. if you get behind early, you can get back into the game easier; if you get ahead early, you snowball like crazy). He is fun to play though, and is very safe.

Caitlyn : Similar to Ezreal, but specific to Caitlyn, I like her ability to really take control of a lane, though her mid game is a bit lack-luster and I dislike the need to crush your lane in order to be really impactful in the later game. She also lacks an attack speed steroid, which is something I think has really prevented me from getting her in the past.

Lucian : Similar to Caitlyn, he seems to rely on crushing his lane in order to be strong later in the game. The CDR build on him is a lot of fun; his short range isn't too bad when his dash is free and comes up every two seconds. He also costs more IP than I would like, since I'm saving in case I want to get Gnar.

Graves : Graves has always been a champion that I would like on paper, but for some reason I've never felt super impactful when I've tried him out. His being fairly tanky (esp for an ADC) has always been pretty cool, his dash is fairly inexpensive, has some built in CDR, and is also an attack speed steroid (something I value a lot on ADCs), and that he's bursty like Tristana can be is really cool, I just feel like his range is much shorter than it is when I play him, for some reason.

Mostly I'm wondering about a champion that can be played comfortably into Tristana, since I haven't been having too much success against her as Jinx. Twitch is probably the leading candidate at the moment; I really like the assassination potential that he and Tristana have, but I get the feeling the only reason he's still being played professionally is because he works really well in certain team compositions (ie. Lulu Zilean). Kog'Maw is another great champion, but I'm hesitant about getting on board when he seems to be on the down slope (he's seeing some nerfs lately).

Thanks!

Edit: I wouldn't buy Gnar to play adc, just he's so darn cute :3

41 Comments

LxLegend3 votes

I'd say learn Lucian first. He is insanely strong right now. I won't be surprised if they nerf him again, but learn him anyway.

Forget Graves, right now he's just a lesser version Lucian. (Yes I know Graves was released first.)

Two champions that you didn't mention that you might want to think about are Corki and Quinn.

Corki is a great carry and does mixed damage so his mid is really strong with a great re-positioning tool.

Quinn is harder to play than most adcs not because of general mechanics (and short range) but because playing her well really means taking advantage of her passive especially during laning phase.

But Quinn has a lot of tools: a gap closing interrupt that doubles as an escape; an aoe skill shot blind; a passive attack speed steroid linked to her passive ability; and an ultimate with a movement speed steroid along with an aoe execute.

Also, I wouldn't bother getting Gnar on release I can already tell they will be nerfing that thing 3 ways from Sunday after release.

Edit: 12Tales is right Corki isn't a hypercarry.

Sunfield2 votes

I wouldnt call Lucian weak, but hes not insta pick into anyone anymore, he has some heavy counters.

Corki is good, but playing Quinn adc is a torment in most matchups. Her range is close to Lucians, but she doesnt have his mobility.

Also from what Im seeing, Gnar is going to be insanely innefective as adc. I mean 300 range at early level... even if he will be broken, he has no chance of surviving a single lane matchup

LxLegend1 votes

As an adc Gnar will be terrible but top lane he will be great because of how he trades with his transformation.

With a cdr build the amount of burst damage Lucian can put out is really high and now with his relentless pursuit costing no mana at rank 1 procing his passive is easier and most of his mana issues aren't issues anymore. Couple that with the recently buffed Essence Reaver (which is more than gold efficient) to keep his mana up in extended fights he can keep casting longer and faster than before his changes.

Quinn played as a standard adc isn't as good as other adcs. Quinn played as an ad caster with cdr on other hand is viable. I've seen streams of pros playing her buying crap like phantom dancer and face palm. Her kit scales so well with cdr and ad that buying anything else first is a waste.

And before anyone says but their pros blah blah. Just because a person plays a game well (or as one of the best in the world) doesn't mean they theory craft well. There's a reason why other region end up copying Korea so much.

But you're not wrong about Quinn having difficult match ups. The key to winning those are making use of that passive and her blind to win trades which is where a lot of her difficulty comes from.

MrBuffington1 votes

Oh, right I should have clarified, I wouldn't be herring Gnar to play adc, I just thought of getting him since he's the new champion, lol.

What are some match ups that Lucian does poorly against? Thanks!

Sunfield2 votes

Its more about mid and late game, there are just some teams you'd wish you hadnt picked Lucian into. With his limited range you are really easy to get locked down and bursted. His range is actually the lowest in the game out of all adcs and now that Riot has tuned down his mobility, he is no longer impossible to catch. Nasus is a real bitch to him. Aoe CC really hurts. Assasins are real.

Basically everything that counters adc but he has it worse. Not saying he is bad, you just need some extra skill with him. And while you are dodging and running, Tristana safely sits back with her ~1300 range and kills your entire team. Hell, even Kog is safer than Lucian now.

MrBuffington1 votes

I see, slows are actually useful against him now, lol. Thanks!

12tales2 votes

Corki is a great hypercarry and does mixed damage so his mid and late game are really strong.

...that's the opposite of what hybrid damage means. Corki's inability to utilize either penetration stat effectively means that, past a certain point, he basically stops doing damage. He's a champion with a very specific and very powerful mid game powerspike, and not much else - he is emphatically not a hypercarry.

LxLegend1 votes

Yeah fixed it. Corki does have a mid-game damage spike but late game he does still have his Valkyrie allowing for nice outplays and the true damage from his passive.

Sunfield1 votes

Jax and Kayle say hi

12tales1 votes

waves

Your point?

Sunfield1 votes

Im not saying your statement is completely wrong, it just has two - scratch that, three KogMaw - wait, Poppy Tristana actually five exceptions. Which means, its completely wrong

MrBuffington1 votes

What I'm confused about is what makes a hyper carry, a hyper carry? Like you said, Kog'Maw does a ton of mixed damage, but so does Corki. I guess Kog'Maw has longer AA range and can armor/mr shred, etc, but Corki does true damage with his passive and has his missiles for longer range, and his E also shreds armor. Both of their builds are pretty similar, Triforce into lifesteal (botrk usually) and Kog doesn't get a ridiculous AS steroid like Tristana does (30% for Kog, vs 90% for Trist). Is it just that Kog can stay safer while auto attacking, because of the range? But then why is Vayne a hyper carry, she has very little range? She can tumble a lot to stay safe, but Lucian can dash about as much, and his double-shot is sort of like the bonus damage on the silver bolt procs. I just don't know....

Sunfield2 votes

It just means they deal more damage than others with full build and have easier time 1v1ing tanks and bruisers. There isnt really a rule to it, Vayne does have true damage, but Tristana doesnt and she is considered a hyper carry as well. Corki is more of a mid game champion because thats when he deals most damage. Thats just how his kit works.

As far as Im concerned tho, safety isnt a reqiurement for a hyper carry.

MrBuffington1 votes

so would it be fair to say that Corki is a mid game hypercarry, as oppose to Tristana being a late game hypercarry?

Sunfield1 votes

Generaly the hypercarry term strictly refers to late game champions. But yes, Corki is definetely strongest in the mid game

MrBuffington1 votes

okay, thanks!

12tales1 votes

I don't care about any of those champions. I'm talking about Corki. Who falls off as a damage threat in the late game because he deals hybrid damage, and is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a hyper carry.

Sunfield1 votes

So its less about not being able to utilize both penetration stats and more about individual kits.

And Corki, without a doubt, is not a hyper carry. Amen

MrBuffington1 votes

Haha, there are already nerfs to Gnar on pbe.

I've played corki since he also has a great reposition like Trist, I just didn't like him all that much...Quinn is sort of the same, very strange kit. Thanks for your help though!

ploki1222 votes

I would feel extremely awkward if this was to happen. But more seriously, FotM or not, I would still mainly play her and her counters if someone takes her from me, and faceroll in either cases. Why have a backup plan if your plan A is fool proof?

MrBuffington1 votes

Well that's my problem, I don't have a back up plan. I play her every game I can but my point is now that she's so popular, I don't get to play her all the time and don't have any reliable champion to fall back on

ploki1221 votes

My post was more of a joke, since I main Poppy :P.

MrBuffington1 votes

Poppy's op, can't play her adc though :P

ploki1221 votes

adc is much easier than mid... I still pick her in neither spots.

12tales2 votes

Kog'Maw and Caitlyn would likely be the easiest ADCs for you to pick up given your pre-existing champ pool, and both of them (especially Kog'Maw) are quite good at the moment. Even with Kog'Maw's base stat nerfs, he still brings such ludicrously high damage and utility late game, and his itemization means that he's never really 'squishy.'

MrBuffington1 votes

I like Caitlyn for the most part, but her lack of an AS steroid is sort of the only thing I dislike, and that's pretty important to me. Is kog too vulnerable? I've had some problems getting caught out with Ashe, koggles doesn't have much to escape with besides the slow and phage passive, maybe the botrk active.

What do you think about twitch at the moment? Is he too weak? His win rate is pretty low, it's sort of concerning.

Also how does kog do against Trist? Thanks

cshakes2 votes

Kog has a better midgame AFAIK, since max-health damage on his W and he has a skill with an AD ratio (unlike Tristana). I'd guess it's a skill match-up, since Kog hasn't got an escape.

Another thing to think about is what's your support playing and what kind of team comp you're running. If you're running some sort of AoE teamcomp, Sivir is great (especially with a Leona support). If you're going for poke, Caitlyn would be good. Cait is a lane bully and not a hypercarry, though.

MrBuffington1 votes

Yea Trist really only has autos going into mid game, or late game. Also I guess it's nice that even if kog gets popped, he's still useful in a teamfight

12tales3 votes

Fun fact - it's a myth that Caitlyn lacks a steroid. Her steroid is standing in a bush, which actually increases her damage really significantly.

Anyways, Kog's actually a fairly safe pick in most situations because his kit allows him to build utility without gimping his damage - with Triforce, BotRK, Void Ooze and stupid long range, it's actually quite easy to be outputting constant damage without really putting yourself at risk. Unless the other team has a Talon or something, but whatever.

I think Twitch is a really effective champion if you're comfortable on him - if you enjoy his playstyle, then it certainly wouldn't be a waste of time to learn him. He's not so powerful that he's worth picking up if you don't anticipate playing him a lot, though.

Kog bullies Trist in lane and has a significantly stronger mid-game teamfight, but offers a bit less raw damage in the late game.

MrBuffington1 votes

Right, I'm always surprised that more people don't abuse that about her. I just prefer the attack speed steroids that champs like Tristana or Jinx have (Draven's W pretty cool in this respect too, and that he can keep it on so long as he has the mana for it and is catching axes, but those are some next-level mechanics that I really don't have yet).

Would you say Kog'Maw is a good second pick? I'll probably spam Tristana whenever I get the chance (unless you know some situations where Tristana isn't a good pick), but between Jinx and Kog'Maw, not sure which one would be better or in what situations. Thanks!

12tales1 votes

Yeah, Trist and Kog'Maw are definitely the two highest priority ADCs at the moment. Which one you prioritize higher is more of a personal preference thing, I think.

MrBuffington1 votes

Good to know, thank you!

Eapenator2 votes

You seem to be playing fine with very non-mobile adc like tristana (long cd jump, not counting the reset mechanic) and kogmaw. In a ranked 5 scenario, I only see tristana being banned in champion select and Jinx usually being free to pick up, either by you or the enemy team.

In the instance the enemy picks Jinx against you, I would definitely opt for you to try some early early game bursty champions like lucian and corki, who do not scale as well as other champions in the meta, but dominate picks like trist and jinx. While I understand you like to play hyper carries, you should definitely try these champions because it will not only further benefit you as a player by understanding different play styles, but you may just find something you like.

As for the picks you have listed, you stated that you often play ranked 5's, which is definitely much more team oriented, and so you can get away with playing champions that scale much less than the ones you have listed because you can advise your team to optimize their strengths (earlier team fights/early siege are great for corki/lucian).

If you absolutely want to play the champions you have listed, twitch/kogmaw are the best late game scalers you have listed, and even more potent in team environments like ranked 5's. I would definitely pick twitch over kogmaw in your case because kogmaw requires you to be very good with managing his w, since the duration can be tricky to keep track of, and can lead you to trying to fight, and then it ends, because you mismanaged.

Twitch is definitely easier in this aspect, because his ultimate provides a clear moment of power that you and your team capitalize on, as well as allow you to assassinate your out of position enemies with stealth.

In conclusion, I would say twitch is definitely much easier to pick up, and scales amazingly into the late game. If you didn't have to pick from this list, corki or lucian would be my top choices for you

GL - Eapenator

MrBuffington1 votes

Actually, Tristana's mobility is probably the reason I enjoy playing her the most. It's not like Lucian or Yasuo where you can just keep dashing around, but it is incredibly useful, which is one reason why Corki was initially very appealing to me. The long cooldown is fine since I typically use the ability defensively, or to all in when my jungler comes for a gank, which is why I like the long distance jump so much, and why the cooldown isn't too bad, since I seldom need a jump more often than that.

It's weird, Lucian just seems so broken right now (the CDR build) that I haven't had too much fun playing him, even though with respect to like, Jinx and Tristana, he isn't necessarily stronger, just stronger early. I don't know how I feel about Corki; actually Lucian and Corki are two champions I've wasted refunds on in the past. Back when I played Corki last, I didn't really understand how to play ADC, so I don't know if I just didn't like Corki or if I was just bad with him. He is the more appealing option between him and Lucian, though, a lot because he's half the cost.

My concern with Corki is that everyone says he falls off later in the game, but supposedly he counters Tristana, since his Q and R have more range than Trist, and he can basically match the range of her rocket jump. I just don't know how hard he falls off, and also if not buying a lot of attack speed is really bad on him (ie. I'm interested in the Sorc Pen Boots build on him instead of Berzerker's). Does he just get destroyed by Jinx/Tristana late game? Or if he's ahead can he manage? How well does he come back into a game?

Thanks for your help!

EDIT: I realized probably the thing I value most about Tristana is her rocket jump; the other features of her kit are awesome, but I really like the safety of that long range jump. Thus, I would rather have a long range jump that I use half as often rather than a short range dash that I'd be able to use twice as often, like Lucian or Ezreal's E. So, I went ahead and got Corki, watched some replays of WildTurtle and it doesn't seem like he has too much trouble when Corki is behind (at least in terms of kills). The lack of AS steroid is sort of made up for with the fact that missiles are sort of like another auto, and proc his sheen, so he'll do more damage. Thanks for the suggestion!

Eapenator2 votes

Hey,

I'm glad you took my thoughts in account. I wish the best of luck. While I do find my self playing ADC often enough, I personally have a liking to Tristana (played her alot when she was not popular. and I was like wow this champion is still strong.) But I really like varus as well, even though he has been quite weak for a while. I hope you enjoy Corki, as for you questions,

  1. Falling off - In reality, the only way corki really falls off late game is that he is really bad at pushing down towers with his auto attacks (because of the short range) but not as bad as champions like vayne. Corki is still very potent at all stages of the game and when ahead, you can force your team to push down towers, and you can siege really well by landing many rockets (especially the big one).

  2. As for his 1 v 1 dueling ability, it is not the best when ahead, due to him only having one escape, and a lot of his damage depending on skill shots, so its not something you should be looking to do. Corki is really good at team fights since he can shred a lot of the front line with his e and poke hard, as well as when he is ahead, trinity force procs and IE can chunk squish enemies HP. As for the Sorc shoes build, I cannot personally comment on that as I have never tried it (usually I play miss fortune, varus, and lucian now).

I think currently, a good corki will absolutely stomp a tristana and a jinx if it is a even skill match up in lane, however, on corki, unlike tristana and jinx who need to keep farming ,you need to make sure to get your team to fight for towers and objectives, because you will be much stronger than the enemy ADC. Anyways, this is only one person's opinion, and I hope you enjoy your buy.

GL - Eapenator

MrBuffington1 votes

Thanks again for your help!

I also like Tristana; she was the first champion that I played regularly, back when I was still level 1; I took a break from her when I started getting other champions and because I didn't play much ADC until recently, but since she got some buffs a few patches ago, I remember how much I enjoy playing her. I think the first time I played Corki, my mechanics were pretty shoddy, which made him pretty difficult to get used to (I bought him over hype from season 3 worlds, I think, but refunded him soon after since I just couldn't get used to his skillshots, especially after they changed his Q to have a travel time). Since I'll still be playing Tristana whenever I can, I'll probably be playing Corki more as a counter to her, or at least be able to respond when she jumps on me. Still, at least from initial impressions, I am liking Corki; I think it was a better decision than going with Twitch or Kog'Maw (I really like the long range jump).

I see what you mean about Corki lacking tower-killing ability, though I'm sure the sheen mitigates a lot of the disadvantage, at least compared to, as you said, Vayne or Twitch, probably.

Thanks again!

Hoi Im Temmo1 votes

So, start of S3, Mundo was my main. Has been ever since. Start of season 4? EVERYONE WAS PICKING/BANNING MUNDO (and, tbh, not even playing him well, it was just because a Korean was picking him T_T) Literally couldnt play for weeks, cause I was so frustrated.

MrBuffington1 votes

Haha, well at least he isn't as popular anymore?

Hoi Im Temmo1 votes

I started in silver last season....I started in bronze this season, with my main banned, or picked away, every game. I have these last few weeks to try and get to S5 from B3....and I work and have college. FML.

MrBuffington2 votes

I was in the same boat, dude, just got back into silver. Best of luck!

Hoi Im Temmo1 votes

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