ADC feels worse after the crit changes

Cursedgamefreak·Feb 8, 2019·4 votes·2,110 views

I've been an ADC main since about late season 3 to early season 4. So obviously the role has come a very long way with Riot adjusting to the to make it feel balanced and yet still a fun role. Recently with the struggle of ADCs even being relevant when mages can in a sense take their place in the bot lane has been an issue. (An entire different discussion to be had). I believe this is due to the fact mage items have a nearly identical build path every game where it's their lost chapter item and then front loaded penetration which destroys ADC's after they removed bonus resistances for ADC's from what I believe was patch 8.11

So with the new crit changes I was excited because it was going to be back to how crit should feel before the first reworked it last season. Which before I felt crits would hit hard and felt very satisfying hitting your 3 item power spike. Now with most recent changes to where crit just has been reverted to what it was but it now considerably more weaker than before. IE has 25% less bonus crit damage than it originally had while still being the same price. Most of the zeal items gave at least 30% AS compared to the 25% on PD RFC. ER also gave an extra 10% bonus CDR for extra gained after building the item, instead of just being a flat 20% throughout the whole game.

Now what these changes do and how they make ADC's feel worse. Now because of how the new reverted crit items are, powerspikes with items do not feel as genuinely strong as they should feel in my opinion. While also I feel incredibly slow with the less move speed given from zeal items, and my attack speed has also taken a massive decrease compared to old crit. This of course is with my trying to run Legend: Bloodline and Overheal as they seemed to be reworked for the better, but now feel awful. My attack speed without alacrity feels miserable compared to how it used to feel, and now most ADC's average a 370 move speed with tier 2 boots and a completed zeal item. So now I feel inclined to only run alacrity and celerity in every situation to make up for the lack of MS and AS i get with the weaker reverted items.

I also feel as Storm Razor needs to be looked at again, generally the item is looked at to be a 3rd or 4th item for ADC's, yet I find it hard to actually fit in to be a more viable item compared to say a LW for tanks or something with life-steal or more survivability like a GA. The interaction of increasing energized effects is cool, but the increase in gold for less AD and less AS compared to last version seems hardly gold efficient. The damage of only 65 bonus on hit magic damage seems negligible for it being a 4th item or a late game item.

So with all these changes to try and help late game carries, I personally feel like they're worse to what they used to be. Right now I feel as if I want to feel like I do something a ADC and do my job within the role that I should still just play Lucian, Vayne, and Ezreal (Which I know Riot is looking at nerfing) Which if they were to be nerfed I think would have ADC's in generally feeling very weak again besides Vayne (If nerfs were to occur).

The best change I believe to come out of the crit revert was the change to PD to give us a survivability option without completely gutting our damage output. I think PD has the right idea of what changes for helping crit marksman need help with, yet they buffed their own survivability while nerfing the thing they should be doing most, which is outputting consistent damage.

Thank you all who took the time to read this and listen to my personal opinion, please leave some feedback behind and let me know what you all think about the "new" marksman changes. [sg-ezreal]

10 Comments

LTK KoRoFeb 8, 20195 votes

Of course they're weaker than before 8.11. Crit ADCs were OP before 8.11, and deserved nothing but nerfs. Now you got a different version of nerfs, which are 100% justified.

Personally i think new PD is a mistake, ADCs shouldn't have 600 dmg shield AND a shields from supports. How the hell anyone is supposed to burst them before they'll statcheck me to death with their ranged autos with "big" counterplay?

nelogisFeb 8, 20193 votes

already saw the second Lulu mid lane just being the second shield slut alongside Janna for the Vayne / Jinx

wooohoooo what a fun game

LTK KoRoFeb 8, 20191 votes

in my first 4 games after this patch every botlane consisted 2 enchanters. Wooo hooo cockblocking is fun

FrozenFrostFyreFeb 8, 20193 votes

That's exactly the type of mentality riot is trying to get rid of. They don't want adc's to be in a position where they have to be bursted right away OR ELSE. Have you even fairly looked at PD once? Have you looked at the cost analysis of the item at all? It lost some pretty hefty combat stats in exchange for a better shield. The 12% reduced damage it had before could be an average. 160-240 shield worth of resistances. It lost around 15% attackspeed and 5% crit which is 575 gold lost. To gain a better shield. The item has a 74.9% cost efficiency which means you waste more gold building it than just buying the raw stats. This is compensated through the passives to get to about a 120% gold efficiency which is about average for any item. With some outliers like ROA/deathcap giving 150%. About 900 (added in the extra gold to get it to 120% ontop of the 575-200=375) gold of power budget is spend on increasing the shelf from 160-240 to 240-600. Which is about what a Giants belt does for you except that's perminant HP and not a shield that goes on CD.

LTK KoRoFeb 8, 20191 votes

. They don't want adc's to be in a position where they have to be bursted right away OR ELSE.

If they don't want this then they need to either gut ADCs damage to idk, 300 per second at best and up their survivability a lot or give us ANY relevant counterplay to ranged autoattacks. Tell me, what mechanical play can i do to outplay enemy ADC outside of bursting him. I can't go for extended fight, since i will lose against him. I can't dodge his autoattack, i can't bait his autoattacks, i can't spellshield his autoattacks.

Current crit ADCs are still in position where they have to be bursted in second, or else they'll win the game singlehandely. They still do tons of safe, ranged no counterplay DPS. You guys just got a item which lowers your DPS a bit but gives you shield which assassins and bruisers can't break, that's why you're happy about it.

FrozenFrostFyreFeb 8, 20191 votes

Burst is already so much for favorible than consistent damage. when I'm playing a mage I can typically wait for my combo to come up before getting in range of an ADC and going for a trade/all in. You guys have zhonyas to stall for more CDs as well as over the top stat sticks that give hp/AP/Mana.

It is the ADC who is in the position where they need to dodge abilities to get consistent DPS. Assuming you are good at mage you either are forcing them to dodge or hitting your spells. Are you guys maybe a bit more sad you can't go in for the 100-0 off of 2-3 spells now? Sure I can see that. Was that healthy gameplay? No not at all.

Also many many mages have much longer ranged spells than any auto attack range in the game. When I play anivia I have no problem against adc's since I can control them so well. Also I get Shields(archangels) and zhonyas and ROA and banshee all the best defensive items in the game that just so happen to grant lots of AP but adc's can't have 1 defensive crit item or else other roles cry hmmmmmmm.

CursedgamefreakFeb 8, 20192 votes

To try and add to this conversation as best as I can, someone from Riot( I believe it was Zirene, I could be wrong) Stated that if assassins can consistently one shot someone in the game, then they're unhealthy for the game. Because yes for the assassin player it is fun, but everyone else it's not. They're cool to watch, but not cool to play against.

This is while also compared to a solo lane of mid where a mage/assassin is pretty reliant on how they do themselves besides some jungle pressure and roams here and there. ADC is one of, if not the one role that is mostly dictated around by the team you're playing with. Support dictates on how well your lane tends to go, and usually you can't walk up to attack anything unless you have a front-line or are stupidly ahead. Yet. we've been at the point to where mages are so strong that they can do ADC's jobs better in the botlane than normal ADC's. This has fluctuated of course, but if you have a Vladimir bot that goes untouched in lane phase who has insane scaling and burst potential with a support behind/in front of them to back them up it tends to feel worse playing against compared to an ADC.

SYN BennyFeb 9, 20192 votes

I understand that the point of the ADC role is to do constant dps instead of burst damage, and I totally agree with that. The problem with ADC right now however is exactly what Cursedgamefreak is saying. Even with the cooldowns that mages have, there are still some mages that can out-perform a lot of the ADC picks in lane because their cooldowns are so short. Sure, after Brand blows his W I have a window to freely attack him because his main damage is gone, but when his W is only on cooldown for 6-8 seconds at a time and he backs up to a safe distance, there are not many ADCs that can counter-engage that. Besides Vayne, Lucian, and Ezreal, there aren't any ADCs with instant gap closers that allow them to abuse those 6-8 seconds where Brand is vulnerable. Factor in another champion in the lane that has cooldowns just as short as Brand's? Like a Velkoz or a Xerath? You have almost 0 time between dodging and farming to safely counter-engage.

But fine. You make it out of lane against the duo mage composition. You have an IE and a PD as your first items because you had to survive in lane. It doesn't matter! There is an assassin or a 3rd mage in the mid lane that will constantly zone you. YOU NEVER GET TO USE YOUR ITEMS! And when you DO get to use them because there is a tank in the front like, YOUR ITEMS DO NO DAMAGE TO HIM. So you sit in the back line, you whittle away at the tank while your team gets shit on by the 3 mages in their back line, all who of course have a ton of magic penetration because RIOT loves their magic penetration.

Also fine. You go back and buy a Last Whisper item so that the tank dies faster. BUT THE ITEM DOESN'T MATTER! Why? Because you now don't have the attack speed that you need to burst their tank before the mages on the other team burst your front line. Unlike mages or assassins who have cooldown reduction built into almost every item to allow them to throw abilities faster, ADCs only have a hand full of items that give both attack damage and attack speed, and usually they are not the first items that a crit ADC will buy (Vayne and Kai'Sa being the only exception to this rule). This means our damage per second is severely lacking compared to mages and assassins in the early and mid game.

But heck, you FINALLY made it past the 35 minute mark, you have almost 5 completed items. Can you carry the game? NOW you can carry the team fights. Woo hoo! But remember, if you die the game ends.

So YES we CAN carry games. YES we CAN take objectives super fast. YES we CAN take down towers in the blink of an eye. How many items does it take for us to do that? 4-6. How many does it take for an assassin to make sure that you can't get your items because you are dead literally all the time? 2-3. How many does it take for mages to shred through a frontline? 2-3. How many does it take for a tank to negate 65-80% of your incoming damage? 2-3. We used to spike at 2-3 with Stormrazor, but then that got a huge nerf to its early game, and we are back to playing early scaling ADCs like Lucian and Ezreal, or mages.

All in all, I think that while ADCs have a carry potential during late game with a lot of unavoidable damage, there is a lot of times where the games don't make it that far because everyone else gets very big power spikes very early on in the game in comparison. Unlike other lanes, we cannot come out of lane with a lead and continue to extend it because we burst everyone down, at least not with these crit items. But assassins and mages can. Bruisers can. Tanks with a lot of engage can. Split pushers can. This is why the ADC role feels so bad to play with these changes. Its not because we aren't doing damage, its because we can't shred the front line any more so that our team can get onto the back line, and we can't out-damage the back line of burst mages unless we dodge every one of their abilities. We have no early game power spikes which this meta DEMANDS. That is why the crit changes suck.

LTK KoRoFeb 8, 20191 votes

Neither burst or DPS aren't favorable by definition. If you had a choice, 2000 dmg burst or 200-400 DPS then burst is a easy choice. But then, if you have to choose between 2000 dmg burst and 1000 dps (like pre 8.11) then it's obvious that DPS is superior in this situatio.

You guys have zhonyas to stall for more CDs as well as over the top stat sticks that give hp/AP/Mana.

And you have GA, PD, and a ROLE which exist only to protect you.

It is the ADC who is in the position where they need to dodge abilities to get consistent DPS. Assuming you are good at mage you either are forcing them to dodge or hitting your spells.

Yeah, if it's a 1 vs 1 mage versus ADC then sure. In reality, ADC is protected by his peelbitch and he won't need to dodge anything, since he'll have +1 tank between him and the mage.

Also many many mages have much longer ranged spells than any auto attack range in the game.

Cool. But mages also have CDs, which ADCs lack, and most of mages spells can be dodged. Also there's a pretty specific counterplay, but you can spellshield one mage skill. There's no counterplay like this to ADCs. What can you do about ADCs damage except of staying outside of their range? Nothing.

Stated that if assassins can consistently one shot someone in the game, then they're unhealthy for the game.

If they can oneshot consistently ADCs it's fine. If anyone else it's not. ADCs are a class which can be countered only by burst, and assassins are tailored to counter ADCs.

ADC is one of, if not the one role that is mostly dictated around by the team you're playing with

If said role is defined by "glass cannon with uncounterable DPS" then there's no way that said role can have any reasonable agency. Just no. ADCs since s1 are a class which requires some basic conditions to thrive, and it won't change unless ADCs play pattern change.

Overall we won't find any agreement here. In my opinion ADCs by design are bad for the game (with some expections like Draven Ezreal ) and as long as their fantasy is "decimating everything with three rightclicks after 3 items" then they'll be forced into being a team reliant role, which usually feels terrible to play.

FrozenFrostFyreFeb 10, 20191 votes

And you have GA, PD, and a ROLE which exist only to protect you.

AS i mage i can rush zhonyas or archangels or ROA or banshee without it effecting my dps too much if at all. you cannot build GA first item as ADC or you will be insignificant and lose to everyone else in the game. PD is the defensive item adcs get to build so they can participate in the game. and the "Whole other role" thing is just an excuse since support players more often pick brand and zyra in this current meta, but adc shouldn't be given weaknesses based off another role that we play with. basing power budget assuming they will be protected by another role is a faulty way of thinking.

"ADC is protected by his peelbitch and he won't need to dodge anything, since he'll have +1 tank between him and the mage" idk fam did you actually put any thought into this statement at all? i question it because of how obviously false it is. If the adc is hit with any cc at all they get focused down immediately. This isn't even unique to higher levels of play it's pretty constant across the board so i don't see how you could have been deluded to think differently. the only tank in the game where this might be considered untrue is braum shield.

i mean you admit that mages have higher range right? mages don't even need to get into range of adcs it's not a problem for many of them. and they also have heavy cc basic abilities on much shorter cd where almost every adc has their only cc ability on their ultimate (varus ashe, trist, kalista) and if it's on their basic ability there is some kind of extra condition they need (vayne, jhin, jinx, cait, xayah) or it's much weaker cc (draven). there are plently of mages in the game that have conditions too, such as brand, cassio, vik, but also many more mages that don't need any extra condition like, morg, lux, malz, annie, anivia, kennen, fiddle, orianna, syndra, elise, zyra, neeko, veigar, vel, liss,ahri, etc the list goes on and on. many skill shots are able to have more power put into them because of the fact they are skillshots. that shows up in damage or cc duration or range or unique effects everywhere.

the easy counterplay is hitting the adc with your burst make a quick trade and running away before they can do anything. OR killing them straight up with all your burst/all in (which is much more likely.)

As someone who plays both, there is SO much more you need to think about and becareful about as adc. diveres and assassins tryign to flank you, mages trying to land their 1 cc ability which kills you instantly, tanks trying to land their huge engage combo on you. I don't think you truely understand how much of a target an adc is. they can't through certain places that almost everyone else can. sometimes even getting zoned off fights completely just because a diver/assassin is saving their cds.

the same element plays a role everywhere here. every other role has initiative on the adc. Not to even mention they are not anywhere close to the only role in the game with unbdodgeable abilities. point and click damage/ cc / dashes already exist.

EDIT: also 2000burst is still favorable over 1000DPS. since the DPS stops once you deplete their hp bar. so if the adc does 1000 damage to a mage then the mage does 2000 damage to the adc and the adc dies then it shows even in that extreme example that upfront burst is STILL stronger.