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Please let us see how much XP Zilean will donate to his allies before he does it

How Do You Meta··63 votes·6,837 views

Nothing is more disheartening than seeing Zilean donate 2 XP and getting his passive on a 2 minute cd because of it. I can only move around my screen so many times at all points of the game to constantly check my allies level up progress. This new passive is in DIRE need of clarity, you are getting an ambiguous indicator that your allies are possible to level up without knowing how much xp they need an you have to keep moving around your map to look at their progress if you want to roam...

Zilean has the most ambiguous passive in the game now, not only does his allies have no idea what it does, but neither does Zilean have any clue how effective his passive is, he either knows if the champions can be leveled up or not, and that is it, in the case of there being more than one ally that can be leveled up, Zilean has to take a leap of faith and hope that the one he picks has a bigger gap of xp such that he can get the xp along with helping out his teammates more before waiting another 2 minutes for his passive.

My suggestion to help this? Give Zilean a similar HUD like Kindred where he can see the level up progress of his allies and it can show a number on them with how much xp they need for a level up, and then when everyone is at level 18 it can go away. Please help this old man not stumble about and trip in the darkness.

Edit: Thanks Riot for the small update to his passive as of patch 5.23

35 Comments

Riot20thCenturyFaux10 votes

I'm pretty happy with the passive but this is top on my wishlist for sure. The potential solutions I know about are bad deals:

  • Having the passive's cooldown scale based on how much XP is granted introduces weird choices--do you give out lots of XP or do you try to keep giving out tiny amounts? It's really hard for an individual player to tell which strategy is better, eventually people would math it out and the choice would move from muddy to a trap.

  • A Kindred-type HUD was definitely considered for the passive, but using the Kindred tech wouldn't fix this problem and making new UI tech to fix this issue is a no-go. We were able to get the passive out because I could cobble it together from existing particles etc--needing new tech would mean waiting much longer for a new passive.

  • Giving out the full amount of XP you have regardless of it levels the target solves the problem with a hammer, but squanders the power of the effect. Any XP given out that doesn't result in a levelup is unsatisfying but powerful, making a less fun character pound for pound.

  • Make the particle show Zilean how far his allies have to go to level. I'm not a particle guy, but I did check with our particle artists about this. The passive is already UI complex, we weren't able to squeeze more in there without wrecking the clarity of it. This is the one I have most hope for if we can hit on a clean way to do it.

There's also a couple mitigating factors in the passive design itself. When you give out a small amount of XP, the next time the passive is ready you have a ton banked up and will have bigger targets to choose from. After playing with it a while, we also found that you can get a sense for who's more likely to need more XP to level--practice won't make perfect but it helps.

At the end of the day, we felt the new passive is fun enough and this problem rare enough that it's an upgrade worth doing.

RocketRelm1 votes

{quoted}

  • Giving out the full amount of XP you have regardless of it levels the target solves the problem with a hammer, but squanders the power of the effect. Any XP given out that doesn't result in a levelup is unsatisfying but powerful, making a less fun character pound for pound--one of the biggest problems with the old passive.

Perhaps a compromise would work? Set a minimum amount of XP to give, that isn't always the full amount, but that always feels like you did "something significant" worth the cool down (exceptions for when leveling somebody up to 18).

Riot20thCenturyFaux4 votes

{quoted}

Perhaps a compromise would work? Set a minimum amount of XP to give, that isn't always the full amount, but that always feels like you did "something significant" worth the cool down (exceptions for when leveling somebody up to 18).

That'd fix the issue, but also block you from times where you'd prefer to do it anyway (rank 2 equalizer, hitting 6 early, etc). Maybe I can make the "you can level them" indicator different if it's under 50 xp or whatever? That runs into the clarity thing... hrm.

RocketRelm1 votes

{quoted}

That'd fix the issue, but also block you from times where you'd prefer to do it anyway (rank 2 equalizer, hitting 6 early, etc). Maybe I can make the "you can level them" indicator different if it's under 50 xp or whatever? That runs into the clarity thing... hrm.

The indicator for your passive being over-under 50 XP could be on the passive icon in your sidebar, and the "you can level them indicator" could be on the allied champions. Putting them in different spots would solve the signals getting mixed, I hope.

How Do You Meta1 votes

{quoted}

snip

Thank you very much for the detailed explanations!

Another suggestion is if we can just see our allies' XP/Level progress like we do on our HUDs already along with their other information when you left click them/their portraits for everyone, that way we don't have to add anything extra special for just Zilean.

If it is possible to make the HUD for Zilean, even if it is new technology and can take a while, I would really appreciate it, if not I understand, maybe something else could be done about it later, the main issue is if for example I am Zilean mid or in ARAMs that I can only pan around the map so many times to see my teammates' progress on leveling if I wanted to roam to them or if there are multiple people that can be leveled up and you don't know who it will help and Zilean is very level reliant.

Either way thank you for coming over here!

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

I personally wish to give all the EXP I can since I always feel like I'm just waisting the EXP I'm saving with That high of a CD.or maybe why not reduce the CD of his passive so even if he doesn't give a lot of EXP he can still give it more often

Kitten of Evil1 votes

Giving out the full amount of XP you have regardless of it levels the target solves the problem with a hammer, but squanders the power of the effect. Any XP given out that doesn't result in a levelup is unsatisfying but powerful, making a less fun character pound for pound.

What if Zilean could only donate XP if it pushes the ally up a level, BUT he donates all the XP he has at that time. So if an ally needs 50 and I have 100, I donate all 100, they level up and still receive the extra 50.

How Do You Meta1 votes

{quoted}

I'm pretty happy with the passive but this is top on my wishlist for sure. The potential solutions I know about are bad deals:

  • Having the passive's cooldown scale based on how much XP is granted introduces weird choices--do you give out lots of XP or do you try to keep giving out tiny amounts? It's really hard for an individual player to tell which strategy is better, eventually people would math it out and the choice would move from muddy to a trap.

  • A Kindred-type HUD was definitely considered for the passive, but using the Kindred tech wouldn't fix this problem and making new UI tech to fix this issue is a no-go. We were able to get the passive out because I could cobble it together from existing particles etc--needing new tech would mean waiting much longer for a new passive.

  • Giving out the full amount of XP you have regardless of it levels the target solves the problem with a hammer, but squanders the power of the effect. Any XP given out that doesn't result in a levelup is unsatisfying but powerful, making a less fun character pound for pound.

  • Make the particle show Zilean how far his allies have to go to level. I'm not a particle guy, but I did check with our particle artists about this. The passive is already UI complex, we weren't able to squeeze more in there without wrecking the clarity of it. This is the one I have most hope for if we can hit on a clean way to do it.

There's also a couple mitigating factors in the passive design itself. When you give out a small amount of XP, the next time the passive is ready you have a ton banked up and will have bigger targets to choose from. After playing with it a while, we also found that you can get a sense for who's more likely to need more XP to level--practice won't make perfect but it helps.

At the end of the day, we felt the new passive is fun enough and this problem rare enough that it's an upgrade worth doing.

Hey I read the patch notes, thank you so much, this really helps a lot~!

Llanite3 votes

Until then, you can use, you know, your tongue, a little bit communication goes a long way.

iHerring20 votes

I type with my hands thank you very much!

How Do You Meta2 votes

{quoted}

Until then, you can use, you know, your tongue, a little bit communication goes a long way.

This is a lot more than a little communication, it is a lot of communication, you are spending the entire game looking around the map to see if an ally can be leveled up if you roam and each time someone can have their level finished they won't just stop everything and wait for you to come over there or they keep farming, or worse yet they don't communicate at all, being at the mercy of their communication back isn't a healthy design. Spending the entire game every time someone is near a level asking them how much xp they are until they get a new level is very inefficient, every second counts in this game.

{quoted}

well, clarity would be nice

but is it wrong that the first thing that runs through my head with this is, "yay, a buff that gives a free level...let's complain about it" XD

You don't know how his passive works, it is to FINISH a level, not GIVE a level, if someone was 2 xp away from a level, he gives exactly 2 XP to finish it. It also has a 2 minute long cd, the point of this thread is to hopefully reach a Rioter who can give us clarity on his passive because currently you have no clue or idea how to see how much xp he can give to complete a level.

RamboDash153 votes

Zilean has a passive???

How Do You Meta1 votes

{quoted}

Zilean has a passive???

Its more of an active now if anything.

3TWarrior2 votes

well, clarity would be nice

but is it wrong that the first thing that runs through my head with this is, "yay, a buff that gives a free level...let's complain about it" XD

mcjagger1 votes

yes it is wrong

Voluug132 votes

Its not a free level. Its completing a level. Which generlly has a lot of problems by design alone (completing a level just means you might give a minimal amount of exp). The implementation of this passive is terrible, and its power its ambiguous and unbalanceable. It will always be extremely weak or extremely powerful depending on numbers.

Battlecast Sona1 votes

The thing is, his passive is great when you give someone 300 xp and get it for yourself as well. Very appealing, very noticeable effect for the laner, etc. But since there's no way to tell, I've definitely given someone 2 xp or 6 xp and then had 500 in the bank and had to wait a 2 minute cd to use the passive again. It's a huge step in the right direction, but it needs a tiny usability buff to make it feel a little better to use. Currently the only way to know if someone is going to use a large portion of your xp is to actually be standing next to them when they get in range and being able to see that they don't have any impending xp (creeps about to die or whatever).

Fefnil2 votes

As another idea, how about making the cooldown scale directly with the exp given? Like, 1 sec per 1 point? This way it doesn't matter if ally misses 2 points or 200, it will always be efficient to boost them.

How Do You Meta1 votes

{quoted}

As another idea, how about making the cooldown scale directly with the exp given? Like, 1 sec per 1 point? This way it doesn't matter if ally misses 2 points or 200, it will always be efficient to boost them.

That is an interesting idea, but the thing is earlier levels require less xp to level up so he can help everyone get to their peaks faster (like level 6 in junglers) but later on in the game you get a lot of xp from minions/champions and there are bigger xp gaps because of it. Either way it sounds pretty neat, usually Zilean doesn't give that large chunks of xp to level up someone, but putting his passive on a 6 minute cd because he finally found someone with 400 xp to share sounds a bit too long, then again numbers can be tweaked.

Fefnil1 votes

Well, exp gain from enemies effectively scales up during the game, so cd per point could also scale down with Zilean level. Something like 1 : 1 at level 1, 0.75 : 1 at level 9, 0.5 : 1 at level 16.

How Do You Meta1 votes

{quoted}

Well, exp gain from enemies effectively scales up during the game, so cd per point could scale down with zilean level to make it efficient. Something like 1 : 1 at level 1, 0.75 : 1 at level 9, 0.5 at level 16.

That sounds like a better idea, I still would like clarity on his passive though because Zilean needs the xp just as much as the ally he donates to.

PowderToast2 votes

He used to give a generic passive amount of global EXP ... that was considered "too OP" for no particular reason.

He then was made so that he only gave exp to the people around him in lane ... more appropriate for building a loving bond with his ADC.

Why was that taken from him?

So that they could give him an even more complex and seemingly ridiculous global back which only benefits one ally...?

Thing is, if your team has not snow balled to a 20 min under win. In a game where you hit 60 mins and all have level 18 ... his passive becomes useless.

How about instead make him have an incentive to hit level 18?

If you are gonna f' with one of my fav supports, how about making some cool borderline broken things ...

example given : If you use passive to boost a player to level 18 gain permanent AP buff or something scaling off of the idea every 5 levels you have given ally such as lev 9, lev 13, lev 18.

Battlecast Sona3 votes

I will say his passive now gives MORE EXP and has MORE effect in the game (you can level someone up right before a fight, boosting their combat stats or giving them a top up of health and mana) and Zilean himself ends up getting more levels (which is great because Zilean support benefits a lot from additional points in his ultimate).

I think the passive needs some QoL to make it better, but if your entire team is level 18 then his previous passive would've been useless too, but you're also level 18 Zilean so you're a beast.

PowderToast2 votes

yeah, I always used him as a buffer for snowballing more than a late game support.

And yes, his old passives were all ineffective at lev 18.

However if they are gonna keep messin' with old geezers kit they might as well show some actually cool innovation in a buff based off leveling champs (the whole purpose) .

Just my idea is all. I will play him in ARAM, Customs, With Friends, etc no matter what they do to him.

He literally has my favorite skin in game atm and I use it , H.G. Wells Time Machine skin.

Ryuku Cruxis2 votes

Guy needs to get himself some sort of rollover plan. C'mon bro you're the master of time.

Mike Hunts Toxic2 votes

his new passive is garbage, stop with the xp crap and give him something that isnt usless after granting lvl 5 --> 6

he only has 1 damage ability, and his support abilites dont really do much, sure he can give a free GA but other then that he just has a speed boost and a stun that doesnt reward its difficulty, morgs snare feels like eternity when it lands, or an ashe ult, but zileans stun is just meh

lowrankhero1 votes

concurred

How Do You Meta1 votes

{quoted}

concurred

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/61557242.jpg

EcchiOtakuTM2 votes

as do I.

Xonra1 votes

Was thinking similar earlier. Good idea.

ahferroin71 votes

Better yet, make it some minimum amount of XP that they need for you to use it (possibly scaling with the XP for killing a minion). This would give a much more clearly defined return on usage, which would make it easier to balance properly as a side effect.

I can tell you with almost 100% certainty that the argument against this will be that it introduces too much visual clutter.

How Do You Meta1 votes

{quoted}

Better yet, make it some minimum amount of XP that they need for you to use it (possibly scaling with the XP for killing a minion). This would give a much more clearly defined return on usage, which would make it easier to balance properly as a side effect.

I can tell you with almost 100% certainty that the argument against this will be that it introduces too much visual clutter.

That works too, but Kindred's passive doesn't take up too much space either.

i am the hamham1 votes

I think a further step is required. Zilean players need to be able to see XP level of all individual teammates. As a Zilean player, I would love to be able to time roaming to mid when my mid laner will hit his level 5-halfway point, so I can level him up to 6 at just the right time. However, not knowing where teammates are in their xp-meter is frustrating and makes it hard to strategize.

Shénzhì1 votes

#I think everyone ought to see a satisfactory purple ^ indicator each time something dies. Sometimes as Sona I'm falling behind in levels but I'm xp-hogging the Marksman. wtf where the XP going? Am I constantly out of range?

Tenryushin1 votes

I am just confused about one thing. If we are already limited by the amount of xp collected, the fact that it has to match the xp requirement for an ally and on top of that it can only be applied out of combat (which to be honest it can get frustrating sometimes since it's already channeled on top of it) why the cool down limitation in the first place? I would understand if it was global, meaning you could target anyone in the map at any time, then yea you need the cooldown but you have to on top of everything move to whomever needs the xp cause the range is really poor.

Another thing, Rewind should add 10 seconds worth of XP to the pool. And since we are on this conversation, it would be really cool if Chronoshift Added a 2 o 3 second shield for the health that goes past the target's max health and if the rune doesn't get broken meaning the target does not die, then allow 25% of the health that the rune would provide if broken to be gained as a heal over 5 seconds or so. Call it a consolation price :)

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