Silver scrub (me) just got matched against a masters player in normals...

The Young Daddy··25 votes·3,625 views

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From what I know normal mmr is different than ranked mmr. But honestly riot should implement a system in which ranked mmr has an effect on normal mmr (can be a small effect). This match making system is especially disheartening to casual players like myself, who enjoy playing normals much more than ranked. So a diamond + player who barely plays normal games can potentially get matched with a very low elo player? Sorry for the rant, I'm just tired of being matched with super high level players then having them completely stomp me and my team.

I want to improve my gameplay, for example learn how to jungle more effectively using different champions. However I can no longer practice this in normal games because high elo junglers just straight up counter and will relentlessly punish me. Only option i have left is coop. Which is not an ideal place to practice your skills.

edit: Question, does each season reset normal mmr?

36 Comments

Imperial Japan5 votes

Dude that's really good, you had many opurtunities to learn while against them. What particular things they did while landing, their habits, play style, etc. I wish I had the same kind of opputunity as you

ImpossibleGT4 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Young Daddy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=537pEEaN,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-11-09T16:53:39.559+0000)

I want to improve my gameplay, for example learn how to jungle more effectively using different champions. However I can no longer practice this in normal games because high elo junglers just straight up counter and will relentlessly punish me. Only option i have left is coop. Which is not an ideal place to practice your skills.

I don't understand your complaint, then. The best way to practice and learn is to play against better players and watch how they play. This is literally the best possible way for you to "practice your skills" and you're complaining about it. Watch, learn, get better. You're squandering great opportunities instead of making the most of them.

The Young Daddy12 votes

It's about practicing your skills against players that are the same level as you and then gradually learning from that. Hypothetically you claim that low elo/newer players should be matched with significantly higher players because its the best way to practice but lets say you just started playing mobas and then started up your first pvp game but get placed in smurf game (Experienced league players make a new acc) the new player will not learn anything but go quite literally 0-20 in lane (Happened to my friends to which they quit because 80% of matches were against very skilled league players going some 0-11 in lane, they like to play custom matches with each other because they are the same skill level). Practicing your skills takes time and when you are thrown in a match against a diamond - masters player when you are low elo, it does not make you any better of a player.

"squandering great opportunities", hm lets see having a teammate go 4-17 then go afk and then getting one shot almost all the time by an insanely fed lee sin is me squandering great opportunities. I will not learn how to cs properly if all I'm doing in game is being denied cs I will never play better mechanically on a new champion if all I'm doing is dying. Might as well throw a couple of bronze players in top tier challenger matches since that will make them better players.

edit: Also I'm talking about normal games, ranked games seems relatively fair atm, you get matched with 1-2 division differences at max. Normals is a heaping mess, silvers get matched with masters and such. League isn't just about learning to be better, I also want to have fun. Its no fun having no cs and lots of deaths and getting one shot.

ImpossibleGT2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Young Daddy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=537pEEaN,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2016-11-09T20:45:16.037+0000)

It's about practicing your skills against players that are the same level as you and then gradually learning from that. Hypothetically you claim that low elo/newer players should be matched with significantly higher players because its the best way to practice but lets say you just started playing mobas and then started up your first pvp game but get placed in smurf game (Experienced league players make a new acc) the new player will not learn anything but go quite literally 0-20 in lane (Happened to my friends to which they quit because 80% of matches were against very skilled league players going some 0-11 in lane, they like to play custom matches with each other because they are the same skill level). Practicing your skills takes time and when you are thrown in a match against a diamond - masters player when you are low elo, it does not make you any better of a player.

"squandering great opportunities", hm lets see having a teammate go 4-17 then go afk and then getting one shot almost all the time by an insanely fed lee sin is me squandering great opportunities. I will not learn how to cs properly if all I'm doing in game is being denied cs I will never play better mechanically on a new champion if all I'm doing is dying. Might as well throw a couple of bronze players in top tier challenger matches since that will make them better players.

edit: Also I'm talking about normal games, ranked games seems relatively fair atm, you get matched with 1-2 division differences at max. Normals is a heaping mess, silvers get matched with masters and such. League isn't just about learning to be better, I also want to have fun. Its no fun having no cs and lots of deaths and getting one shot.

If you want to practice mechanics you can do that in bots. Practice new champions and csing there. I don't understand what your problem is. If you're getting beaten so badly figure out how your opponents are doing it and how to stop it.

rtbf761092716 votes

The ENTIRE POINT of matchmaking is to have people play against others at the same level. In my last 3 games I also had a bunch of diamond players on either team. I am so much lower of a level than that, to the point that I lose so badly I can't learn anything. This is not like gold 5 vs gold 1, where they are better, but not so much that you cant focus and see what they do and learn from it

diamond players do everything better, cs to trades to positioning to ganks to decisions. It's not so simple to just "figure out" how to beat diamond players. I would need to improve everything I do by the experience/practice 750 games would give me overnight. That's not possible or easy or else everyone would be diamond. People CAN'T play bots enough to possibly beat people 2 leagues above themselves. I have been playing league since patch 6.9 and many of these people have been playing for multiple seasons. It's simply bad match making

Phelas1 votes

While you're right, you're wrong.

When your goal is to improve you soak up every asspounding you get while figuring out what the diamond did, and most important WHY he did it in exact that situation and what you did wrong to provoke that scenario.

While you're pretty new, your goal should be to push yourself to the limit, leave normals and head up into ranked if a more "fair" gaming environment is important to you.

rtbf761092713 votes

my goal is to have fun in a video game, not to go 2-12 half the time against people two leagues above me. Why even have a match making system if people in the top 1% can be matched against those in the bottom 40%?? We could just have 30 sec queue times where anyone matches against anyone since silvers vs diamonds is supposed to be ok apparently

also the double standard here is outrageous, just saying. I remember a good couple threads at like +100 about low level players boosted and in diamond games, "ruining them" when they did poorly. Silver in diamond games ruins games, but diamond in silver games should be a learning experience? Neither is fun.

Phelas1 votes

Silvers and diamonds being matched in normals is totally fine. Silvers and diamonds matched in ranked is awful.

Look, noone cares about how you play in your normal games, thus the diamond dude simply does not care if you get destroyed and lose the game, since it is indeed casual playing. While on the other hand, if you hop into rankeds to test your true skill, the diamond WILL care if theres a silver guy causing him to lose simply because there is the dispiracy between their skill levels.

Also, remember, there are aswell diamonds who got friends they cannot play with in rankeds, simply because they are too low ranked to be able to.

Normal games are a stomp, a playground to fuck around, not caring about the actual game. If you want your fair games, hop into rankeds, and, as i told you, improve.

rtbf761092711 votes

It's about the enjoyment of that game. Ya diamonds destroy me and I lose the game and they stomp. That's not fun for the low elo players that get stomped. How is that hard to understand

BladeSteel5 votes

I can go ap lee in intermediate bots and go 40-0. Bots teaches you NOTHING about the game. Heck i've gone ap twitch against intermediate bots and gone 40ish-2

OMGSoAnnoying1 votes

There are some things you simply cannot accurately practice in bots.

Proper jungling/counter-jungling cannot be practiced, as bots do not jungle. There's no contest for objectives, no reason to lay down vision. Telling a bronze or silver jungler to watch the diamond/master jungler counter him over and over with Chuck Norris Lee Sin kicks to the face does not help him at all -- you can't see what he's doing at any point to learn his patterns. You don't know where he's placing his wards when, and more importantly, why. How does he analyze lane patterns to know when and where to gank?

Top lane will always have two bots in it due to them not jungling, which differs from the 1v1 top lane you get in pvp. Freezing a lane is also not something easily practiced in bots.

Bots do not roam or coordinate in the early to midgame. Bots do not five-man collapse your bot lane at 12 minutes because they all recalled and then went on a sneakfest down to bot lane. Or your top lane, for that matter. Bots do not set up a siege, or bait out a teamfight around Baron/Dragon. Bots do not try to split push, even if they do have a split pushing champion (Master Yi, Trynd, Shaco).

Yes, you will lose in normals a lot figuring all this out. However, it's impossible to truly learn these things in bots matches. Facing a high-ranked player while doing it will just result in you getting pasted repeatedly, over and over, and going "WTFH HOW!?!?!?" at your screen. I should know, it's happened to me where my Bronze V (at the time) carcass got matched up with a Plat 1... several times. I'd be out of position without knowing it, and BAM.... dead. Over and over, to the point where you're useless the rest of the game, and then people flame you because you got your arse handed to you by someone far over your skill level.

Only the very basics of CSing and mechanics can be learned in bots.

ImpossibleGT1 votes

{quoted}

There are some things you simply cannot accurately practice in bots.

Hence I said "mechanics". You can practice how to mechanically move in and last hit against bots all day. You can sit there and learn exactly how all of your champion's skills work. You can learn basic jungle routes with new champions, or check to see if a new rune page/mastery set up is good for jungling or not. You can work on timing and muscle memory for ability combos. There is so much you can learn and practice in bots. They even teach spacing fairly well because they burn all their spells the second you move into range, so you can get a decent idea of how far away you can safely be.

The point is, despite what everyone is QQing about, the skill difference between Gold and Diamond isn't huge. I've played with and against basically every conceivable ranking. I can assure you, you don't suddenly learn new skills once you get to Plat or Diamond. They just do the fundamentals exceptionally well, combined with good strategy and map awareness. If you're dying more than 3+ times in lane it's because you're doing something wrong. So learn from it.

Odinakos1 votes

Dude you can learn so much by playing against someone 4 divisions ahead! Some examples: Game knowledge: how many seconds it takes to get from base to lane! Reflexes: When you see the enemy champion within 1000 distance, you auto open shop to browse. Probably for another sets for potions. Eye-hand coordination: After seeing the baron icon on the minimap, you type /ff to surrender! That goes along with game knowledge because Baron spawns at 20:00, exactly when you can start a surrender vote on SR! Isnt that exciting!

Now on a serious note. Ignore whan he said. 1.5 half division ahead can worth to lane against for learning, more is irritating at best.

As for mm. Its quite fine, but usually at late hours it starts having problems due to lower numbers and may lead to crazy matchups. After some time in queue, it will lower the limits more and more until finds a "suitable" match that can mean throwing from diamonds to silvers in the same mixer! I have also have seen silver vs diamonds and it wasnt not fun to be there, even with the diamond on our team. Yes i saw some tricks but it was like coop after some time.

So what i suggest is to avoid normals those hours, coop or aram for funs, or ranked and treat it more lightly than you would (go for the win but dont make a fuss if it doesnt go well). And dont get dishearted for some rare incidents of onesided matches!

I agree that normal MMR should inflate if the ranked is much higher. Something like at least one division below of last 20 ranked games average. That way it keeps up with the ranked mmr, but sudden spikes/drops dont affect it that much. Just throwing a basic idea.

Last regarding your question, we dont know, probably not.

Cynical Rain2 votes

It's actually kind of hilarious that you're asking for this, since I wish for the opposite. ImpossibleGT is correct for anyone who is lvl 30, and wants to improve. You admitted that what you argued applies only to "new" players, who then quit or afk. For them, you're right.

Your other example is incorrect. "I will not learn how to cs properly if all I'm doing in-game is being denied cs. I will never play better mechanically on a new champion if all I'm doing is dying". That is literally the best way to get better, since you won't be half-ass-learning or developing bad habits. You can do silly stupid things, and still beat bad players. That doesn't mean you've gotten good with a champion. I know this from experience, since when I started playing, I used to take clarity with Anivia every game, and it was kind of my crutch. My friend told me that it's a bad habit. It was. I didn't bother improving mana management, and it was difficult for me to get used to ignite later on.

The way you know you're good is by playing at a good level. If they're denying you cs, you learn about windows of opportunity, champion ranges, power spikes, and how to play around them. If all you're doing is dying, you now know exactly what your weakness is, so you can improve on it. If you were playing against a bad player, the variables aren't isolated since mistakes are everywhere. You can't be sure why you won/lost, so you can't be sure what needs to improve. Throwing a couple of bronze players in top tier challenger matches repeatedly would actually be the best way to make them better players if they try to learn from every match.

I got the clearest ideas of my strengths and weaknesses when I played with my high elo friends, which got me high elo enemies. Jungle threat at higher levels is exponentially greater and more important than at lower levels. In low level games, I could often get a double kill when someone ganked, or at the very least, escape easily. At higher levels, I got wrecked by ganks whenever I overextended, even with ward coverage sometimes, since they used different paths. I also got a much more "real" idea of my champion's strengths, target prioritization and how team comps actually affect play. At lower levels, people like to talk about the comps much more, even though it often doesn't even matter there.

The Young Daddy2 votes

I see your point, but again I am talking about casual game-play, you seem to have mixed up the two. I am not trying to get better at the game to the point where I can 1vs1 masters players because I am a casual player meaning I jump on and off, playing a game here and there. From what you describe you are bettering yourself at the game because you want to climb. My situation is I get on league planning to play a game that day, go in normals versus a masters/diamonds team, get wrecked by 20 min, teammates complaining and feeding, I'm looking at my death screen more than actual game play and we lose the game. This cycle just repeats. How is this considered fun? If I really wanted to improve my gameplay I'm pretty sure I could but I do not have the time for that. I could go and watch high level players play league, I could go practice in bot games, I could dedicate hours on learning how to play my champ efficiently but I'm just here for casual gameplay and riot doesn't seem to be concerned for those types of players.

Why would I try so hard to improve my gameplay and practice hours upon hours, watching high level gameplay if all I'm ever going to be doing is play normals on my spare time?

rtbf2121414101 votes

Normal matchups are a disaster for the reasons you laid out but ranked matchups are wildly unfair just the same when a new-to-the-game bronze player gets matched with or against silver players with years of experience.

Mouse5343 votes

Actually the best way to learn is to approach the situation as a learning experience, teaching/explaining what you learned to peers, recieving feedback from more experienced, correcting based on feedback, and reapplying after. Do you see anywhere that getting rekt is better? No, because without certain explanations or reasonings we don't learn. What you are suggesting is still a good thought process, but wrong execution still amounts to wrong learning.

Odinakos1 votes

Yeap his thought process is right but the limits he is suggesting. I beleive that on average one division ahead can be good for learning, more than 1,5 can lead to frustration because it will be so onesided. 4 division is insane.

Its like proposing to someone driving for a couple months to compete in Formula 1. I am pretty sure we all know how it will end.

TwinkiePro1 votes

I'm silver 4 and my silver team played 3 games last night, all of which had either High silvers (compared to our low), a gold, or a plat on their team.

Generally, you are right in that it should be taken as a learning experience. Except, that would be the case were the entire enemy team were the same rank or similar, because now the entire enemy team is better than yours. However, when it is a single opponent who is that much better, It's difficult to learn when they literally do better than anyone on any of the teams, creating an absolute stomp fest where they get insanely fed. Hard to learn when get ass smashed.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

That's like claiming you can learn great marksmanship by standing on the other end of a firing squad.

Ziovi1 votes

No, not really. The best way to improve is doing it gradually, with opponents that are just a bit better than you, not getting horribly stomped by someone who is extremely stronger. Also, this is a game, and he declares that while he wants to improve, he also is a casual player, which means his primary objective is to have fun. One game with very strong opponents in a while is fine, even helpful. But getting such bad match ups often is not fun at all and it's not even the best way to improve. This is not how it should work, and OP is perfectly damn right. We all know that normal mmr doesn't and must not influence ranked mmr, that's obvious. But why the heck shouldn't ranked mmr influence, at least partially, normal mmr? It can only lead to a more accurate matchmaking, which is something riot should try to accomplish.

DarkRitual3 votes

Was that player possibly in a group with others? Maybe he wanted to play with lower rank friends, but didn't want to smurf (or didn't have a leveled account to do it with).

Calabok2 votes

its just normals. it does not matter who you play against.

rtbf761092711 votes

except for that this game is supposed to be fun and getting mercilessly crushed isn't fun

I am having the same experience right now in normals. Many people are so much better I have no hope and can't learn anything. The gap is way past the point of try my best and see what they do

Your Real Mom1 votes

With solo/duo ranked down there's an influx of people of all skill levels playing normals. It's essentially the same as queueing for poro king, urf, etc and being matched with them just because everyone in that particular queue was ready.

Edit: after looking at your screenshot I think it's more likely that your team was a group of 3 or more and you were added to fill the space.

The Sword Saint1 votes

Casual queue is casual. Only in a ranked ladder after a sufficient amount of games can you expect to get a 'fair' match of similarly skilled players. That's just how all queues work in any competitive game. It would make no sense for ranks in one queue to effect matchmaking in another queue - best you can do is seed where you start the season from the previous season or if it's a new game mode you can use another queue to seed it but its still not ideal.

If different queues are at all tied together on a match my match basis you get all kinds of abuse cases, like a diamond player purposefully only getting to bronze on a smurf and then playing normals on that account - he can then stomp lower skill level players in normals for a long time since his normals mmr won't rise fast with his rank in the other queue being so low.

WinTheWarOnPants1 votes

thats not a big deal lol I got a ranked game with 4 silver and 1 low gold solo players matched against 3 high gold and 2 plats. the 2 plats and 2 of the golds where a 4 man premade... and i was in my gold promos..

TzesT0s1 votes

It's because normal MMR is separate from Ranked MMR. For example i'm Plat2 , playing since season 2 (prob played 50 normals or less since i got lvl 30 , so basically less than 10 games/year)

Queued yesterday for normals since ranks were down 4/4 games midsilver/low gold games (with players with 300+ ranked games , at least)

The fun part is when you queue up in Flex Ranked and as plat 2 you get master / challenger :D . I have to give you this , 70% of players in my 12 flex ranked were Dia , god if feels so good to play at a higher level that you are used to (esp if you don't get stomped)

Catastrop1 votes

Yeah I once got matched against a Master/Challenger Duo, sometimes I really have to wonder about this system.

Calabok1 votes

you learn from losing and reflect upon your mistakes you and your team mates made in the game.

P0IS0N IVY1 votes

Even if ranked mmr had a slight effect on normals, the normal mmr would still be screwed anyway. I play nothing but stuff I'm bad at in normals so my MMR would just drop back down.

Mokkun1 votes

I get regular diamonds, the occasional masters, and the exceedingly rare challenger in my norms.

What I tend to notice is that only the diamonds... and mostly just the D4s (or should be D4, D5s) actually play to their skill level. Above that, they just don't give a fuck. They tend to play off-champs, using maybe half their brain. Plus, they're often queuing with scrub friends whom even they can't carry (especially when they half-ass it).

Masters aren't a scary problem. Learn what you can, try and crap on their teammates, and gang up on them the way you do any other fed player.

It's the D4s that will shit stomp silvers and golds without holding back. (D5s try, but are too big a grab bag of skill to be consistent)

All of the above is based on my personal experiences as someone in the tryhard normals bracket.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

I had this happen to me not too long ago. A five person premade of myself, another gold, and a bunch of silvers got matched against a group including kms myself (currently the 108th best player in NA), and a pre-30 who seemed to be legitimately new.

We won that game.

Ziovi1 votes

eh, i had a similar experience quite a lot of time ago. I was in a team with silver/gold guys, and we got matched against 3 diamonds, 1 master and 1 freaking challenger. No need to tell you how well that went.

I also suggested the same thing about letting ranked mmr influence normal mmr to make matchmaking more accurate, so i agree with you.

Saianna1 votes

Tbh I'm not shocked. This shit was from day 1 and Riot did nothing to improve it.

dunkeroni1 votes

It's just because of preseason. Once the actual ranked ladders are in again, those players will go back to ranked. Sorry about your game.

https://i.gyazo.com/4630533fdeb24289e979dfea08cfcdad.png

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