Why is Ashe's ult AP

EverTokki·Jan 5, 2015·17 votes·3,063 views

I know she is an old, old champ and the ideas of AP/AD ratios and everything came later, but even if she only uses her ult for CC purposes, I think there should be an AD ratio for it. I really hate it when my ult does no damage. It's called 'ultimate' for a reason, right? TF can give more stuns with his yellow card because Ashe at least needs to shoot from her home to the middle of mid lane in order to have a helpful, at least 2.0 sec stun. I don't know lot about the damage system and everything, but I think it should be changed to somewhere of 0.5~7 AD ratio, because to my memory I had around 200? AD by endgame.(If it's wrong, lemme fix it after I check) Maybe just a teeny, like 0.3 AD if you guys really think she would become OP with that. I don't want to go AP items just because of her ult. I bet you wouldn't like to see it too. Imagine ashe with or . :/

59 Comments

Lord DusteonJan 5, 201510 votes

First, Ashe's arrow reaches the max stun duration (3.5 seconds; longest hard cc in the game) at 2800 range. For comparison, level 1 Hawkshot has 2500 range.

Otherwise, it has a base damage of 600, is global with a huge CC (and provides an AoE slow + damage around anyone it hits), on an adc with a permaslow. It has an AP scaling because of how much power is in it.

EverTokkiJan 5, 20155 votes

However, by late game, I've never really seen my ult help. It is a good initiator, does stun and help my teammates focus on one target, but I've felt a lot of times where the tanky guys just ignore my ult and don't really care whatever that comes.

Maybe they were just being too tanky. Should've bought last whisper, probably. Thanks for clearing it up.

Kuroi86Jan 5, 20151 votes

Pick up item 3031 item 3087 item 3508 Max Volley Get passive& shiv stacked. See a squishy? Ult, volley, crit. Watch their health melt.

LankPantsJan 6, 20158 votes

Essence Reaver is a really bad item even on champs like Jayce and Ezreal. There's literally no reason to buy it on Ashe over a Bloodthirster since her mana usage isn't that high if you don't leave frostshot on against creeps.

Kuroi86Jan 6, 20151 votes

Actually, I was thinking about the cdr helping get her volley and ult off cooldown faster.

LankPantsJan 6, 20152 votes

The CDR isn't worth the extra life steal and the overshield passive.

Kuroi86Jan 6, 20151 votes

Added life steal is good. The passive is meh at best.

LankPantsJan 6, 20152 votes

The thing is the passive is far better than Reavers.

So you're tossing up 10% life steal for 10% CDR on a champ who does 90% of her damage with autos and the 10% Life Steal gives a better passive.

Also that 'meh' passive gives around 1k gold worth of HP when fully overcharged at level 18.

Kuroi86Jan 6, 20151 votes

Admittedly it's a niche idea and probably a gimmick build. But if I'm looking for short skirmishes over duels, it's the item I'd prefer.

If I were looking at dueling potential, I'd probably go item 3031 item 3046 item 3153 . While I lose out on the extra AD for crits, the % on hit helps whittle them down just about as well and towards the end Bork active will help finish them off.

ABlueQuakerJan 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The CDR isn't worth the extra life steal and the overshield passive.

Yeah, ER won't be viable until it grants more LS. Even if Riot dropped the CDR on the item. The only difference between ER and BT should be the Passive.

LankPantsJan 6, 20151 votes

That would make it even worse. At least at the moment it has a niche even if it fills it horribly. What it needs is a smaller item with the passive of the Reaver on it that you can buy early then sit on until you're ready to buy the whole item. At the moment by the time you can buy Reaver its passive stops being useful.

ABlueQuakerJan 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That would make it even worse. At least at the moment it has a niche even if it fills it horribly. What it needs is a smaller item with the passive of the Reaver on it that you can buy early then sit on until you're ready to buy the whole item. At the moment by the time you can buy Reaver its passive stops being useful.

Meh. The only time I get it is when I need to balance out the mana cost of using Muramana's toggle.

PatMcGroynJan 6, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Pick up Max Volley Get passive& shiv stacked. See a squishy? Ult, volley, crit. Watch their health melt.

Ew, Essence Reaver on Ashe. Garbage tier item on her. BT or even BotRK are wayyyyyyy better on her.

Kuroi86Jan 6, 20151 votes

Bork active I could see. I'd take ER over BT for the cdr though. The passive shield just isn't worth it. Getting your volley and ult up faster though, that is good.

The EllimiistJan 6, 20151 votes

Ofc if you botrk them after you use any of your slow ability the effect kinda sucks xD

Kuroi86Jan 6, 20151 votes

Maybe, but it's still 10% of their max health.

RaptameiJan 7, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Dusteon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4gpnj4YA,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-01-05T21:00:08.345+0000)

First, Ashe's arrow reaches the max stun duration (3.5 seconds; longest hard cc in the game) at 2800 range. For comparison, level 1 Hawkshot has 2500 range.

Otherwise, it has a base damage of 600, is global with a huge CC (and provides an AoE slow + damage around anyone it hits), on an adc with a permaslow. It has an AP scaling because of how much power is in it.

That's why Ashe is so strong and viable right?

SachabotJan 5, 201510 votes

Ashe isn't just old, she's pretty well-balanced. She's never really in or out of meta, but she always exists. She rewards certain aspects of mechanical play rather well while having a low skill cap. She has well-defined strengths and weaknesses. If she has a flaw, it's that there's no specific anti-Ashe thing you can do to fight her. But she's in a good place, so that doesn't even matter. Also, most of her kit's allotted power is in that ult. It's her one thing, but she's not dependent on it. I don't want to see it get buffed, because that means she'll lose something else.

EverTokkiJan 6, 20151 votes

She is well balanced. After reading all the comments, I kinda feel like yeah, it shouldn't be AD. I hope her passive gets updated though.

AbsoluteSadmanJan 6, 20151 votes

the only issue with ashe being weak isint even her fault, but how champs are becoming harder and harder to kite with no dashes of your own

disregardableJan 5, 20158 votes

Would I put points into it for the utility even if it did 0 damage? Then it gets an AP ratio.

RebonackJan 5, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4gpnj4YA,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-01-05T20:54:28.563+0000)

Would I put points into it for the utility even if it did 0 damage? Then it gets an AP ratio.

That's how it used to work, anyway.

Now we have bullshit like Rivin's shield and Vi's Ult.

NarasimhaJan 5, 20156 votes

Riven's shield is fine because she has the lowest health regen other than Mini Gnar. Or maybe vice versa. Still, it evens out.

And Vi's ult is balanced by the fact that she literally loses control of where she ends up. She can just as easily accidentally tower dive or end up in the middle of the enemy team.

The WhamboozlerJan 6, 20155 votes

You completely lost any hope of me taking you seriously with the words "Vi's ult is balanced".

NarasimhaJan 6, 20151 votes

Truly a wonderful rebuttal. You presented a very solid case, complete with nothing to back it up.

NoFunWithNunuJan 6, 20151 votes

Lets pretend vi dosnt get a shield in her passive Lets pretend her ult dosnt have an ad scale Lets pretend she will not build tanky at some point Lets pretend it cannot be dodged

NarasimhaJan 6, 20151 votes

...Wait, are you comparing one move or the entire kit? Because here I thought we were focusing on a single move.

Otherwise you might as well say

Let's pretend Urgot doesn't have a shield. Let's pretend his ult cannot be dodged. Let's pretend he doesn't build tanky at some point. Let's pretend his ult doesn't give massive amounts of armor and MR.

NoFunWithNunuJan 6, 20151 votes

Urgot shield can be silenced before its casted and its scales with AP do you build AP urgot? i dont think so timmy Urgot ult cannot be dodged but interrumpted in the process AND cleansed via QSS since its a supression Tanky urgot gets no benefits in his kit besides sirvive his ult, vi gets rewarded in her passive building hp and the last point urgot ultimate DOES NO DAMAGE AT ALL get it? 0-zero-none-nada meanwhile vi does damage, get your facts together before you come with that weak shit son

NarasimhaJan 6, 20151 votes

Clearly, you're taking this argument very seriously. For reasons unbeknownst to me. Regardless, I'll do the same and give you a decent example.

Wukong

Can't really dodge his ult unless he times it REALLY badly, rewarded by building AD, generally builds tanky at some point, doesn't have a shield but has invis.

And for the record...

Urgot shield can be silenced before its casted

ANY ability can be silenced before its casted. Vi can't cast her ult when she's silenced either. Unless you somehow mean to say that Urgot's shield has a windup time, in which case I'm not sure how to proceed.

AND cleansed via QSS since its a supression

Fun fact, the cleanse really does nothing major. It doesn't stop the place swapping, just lets you move beforehand. Unless you can somehow move massive distances in .5 secs, then nothing has changed, Although some weird things happens when someone tries to use a blink mid swap, but thats a super rare case.

NoFunWithNunuJan 7, 20151 votes

"ANY ability can be silenced before its casted. Vi can't cast her ult when she's silenced either. Unless you somehow mean to say that Urgot's shield has a windup time, in which case I'm not sure how to proceed."

Vi while ulting will not stop, will gain the shield and still do damage, wukong ultimate lifts you once, then you can try to either move away from the ult or kill him

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Urgot

Remove Scurvy, Quicksilver Sash and Mercurial Scimitar will remove both the suppression and the impending displacement and slow. Urgot will still receive the full bonus to himself, however.

weak shit son, weak shit

on top of that vi will displace any enemy unit in her path, urgot will not

Wînter FoxJan 5, 20154 votes

It should have an AD ratio, be able to crit, and be affected by her passive #risefromthe Ashe s

EverTokkiJan 5, 20154 votes

I wouldn't really like it for her to break her balance and become op. Her passive needs some more work though.

Maybe I'm just being too serious on your comment bro, #risefromthe Ashe s

Done25Jan 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

It should have an AD ratio, be able to crit, and be affected by her passive #risefromthes

I like this idea. Lower the base damage to reduce the effect of panic shots, but a smart Ashe can charge her passive to boost her R.

LuxxumJan 6, 20154 votes

{quoted} I don't want to go AP items just because of her ult. I bet you wouldn't like to see it too. Imagine ashe with or . :/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qteg5sSK28

WAKAPOW666Jan 6, 20155 votes

lol XD ap ashe op Ashe item 3113 item 3089

JustMyBassCannonJan 6, 20154 votes

Basically, they don't want it to scale with AD, but they don't want it to not scale at all.

Riot avoids having skills with no scaling whatsoever. The closest you can get are abilities like Vayne's Silver Bolts and Garen's Demacian Justice, but even those scale (just on your enemy's HP rather than your personal stats).

...I get the feeling I'm forgetting a particular skill, but that's beside the point; the important part is that it's better to have an AP ratio than no ratio (or at least, that's Riot's policy).

EndlessSorcererJan 6, 20151 votes

You might be forgetting Mundo's Cleaver, though that scales based on enemy health as well.

Maybe Olaf's E before his rework where it only really scaled with CDR?

Lumus AvatarJan 5, 20153 votes

I have watched AP Ashe players pick and peck with their auto-attacks just to wipe out 2 champs at once with their ult. AP Ashe is a thing that can work if you're smart.

But the others are right, The ult has so much utility, it cannot afford to also scale off AD on an AD champ. I have never ulted an enemy for the damage - I actually assume the ult does no damage and am pleasantly surprised when it kills someone - I just do it for the stun.

EverTokkiJan 5, 20151 votes

Well, true. I agree. I do it for the stun too, but it just saddens me when I see the tiny damage I do.

CatsaberJan 6, 20153 votes

i know your pain.. MissFortune Tristana item 3070

PatMcGroynJan 6, 20153 votes

I agree that it should have an AD ratio, even if they need to nerf the base damage to compensate.

TotalJerkJan 6, 20152 votes

The AP ratio is because Baron buff.

The WhamboozlerJan 6, 20152 votes

Ashe is underpowered enough that a small AD ratio on her ult wouldn't break her. It would however, ruin my sweet AP ashe build. So downvoted. xD

EverTokkiJan 7, 20151 votes

I need your AP Ashe secrets bro. Do you still go bot with AP Ashe?

The WhamboozlerJan 15, 20151 votes

Play her as a support, or a midlaner if you're feeling REALLY ballsy. Your ult is for starting teamfights, and your W spam makes it hard to all-in your team. Even then it's only mediocre. It's a funny build, but hardly strong.

MPendragonJan 6, 20152 votes

Most ADC's triumph her because they have AD modifications into their skills, thus raising the amount of burst damage they deal.

Example: Graves, Caitlyn, Jinx, Lucian,

JustMyBassCannonJan 6, 20151 votes

Because all of those ultimates are meant to deal more burst damage.

Did you notice none of them have a 3 second, 50% AoE slow and an up-to-3.5 second stun attached?

MPendragonJan 6, 20154 votes

What kind of meta are you playing, where someone is more likely to take up playing Ashe than they are to take up playing Graves?

Ashe only has two abilities which deal damage, one of which doesn't even scale with her form of damage, while the other doesn't even scale that well with it. Most if not at all other ADC's all have 3 or 4 abilities which all deal damage, while generally scaling with their form of damage.

I mean nobody cares that it has a lengthy potential stun attached to it, people would see more utility in a Lee Sin ADC than an Ashe ADC.

JustMyBassCannonJan 6, 20152 votes

When did I say anything in this thread about the meta?

Although, a very fair point to bring up is that Ashe is never made irrelevant by the meta. Unpopular, yes, but regardless of which meta, she has always stayed a relatively low skill floor, high skill ceiling champ that, with the proper team setup, can still succeed.

"But win rate means nothing!"

Yeah, right, a 50% win rate for her entire existence means nothing. Disregarding the meta, disregarding item changes, despite direct tweaks to her kit's power, Ashe's viability has never fluctuated.

Now, I'm not saying she's perfectly balanced, or perfectly designed. But the fact that newer champions have fluctuated in viability much more than she has is worth noticing.