Just Some Issues I have with Balance

Zenzen3·Jan 13, 2015·2 votes·856 views

So it is sometimes frustrating to play the mid lane or top lane due to some heroes that are really quite frustrating to lane against. In mid for a example a Zed can play super aggressively and dominate the lane, to the point where I'd only be leeching experience off of the minions. I can't do anything about him really; good escape, good dive, and good laning. Another thing I want to cover is Fizz, because Fizz is extremely easy to play. He is good at juking, dodging, and all the while dealing damage. He can escape with his E, but at the same time, it covers a large area, making it hard for players to escape if Fizz is using it aggressively. His dash, on the other hand, also covers a long-ish range, which is double the difficulty in order to escape from his harass. It is almost like he has the 2 flashes. I am not trying to say that they are overpowered, but they are quite close, and I just want to see community feedback about this issue. I would appreciate it if people would post below about counters that are both viable and simple, and if a nerf is possible.

14 Comments

TehNACHOJan 13, 20152 votes

Zed, in my opinion, just has a lot of presence. I don't think he's necessarily overpowered, it's just that the way he plays scares people off.

I say this because mid lane players never so much as try to engage on him after he uses his W to farm/harass. Seriously, if Zed is so aggressive that he's W'ing forward, lock him down or tell the Jungler that he's burning his escape.

Fizz on the other hand is in his own world of problems.

Zenzen3Jan 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Zed, in my opinion, just has a lot of presence. I don't think he's necessarily overpowered, it's just that the way he plays scares people off.

I say this because mid lane players never so much as try to engage on him after he uses his W to farm/harass. Seriously, if Zed is so aggressive that he's W'ing forward, lock him down or tell the Jungler that he's burning his escape.

Fizz on the other hand is in his own world of problems.

Well looking at what you said, and based on what Zed is I think that he should be probably be more balanced but not nerfed to the ground. He's just enormously successful at farming and is anyone wants to anything about it, they have to get through his harass. And that is not easy when your enemy and jump around and throw shurikens at you. It's just too good

TehNACHOJan 13, 20151 votes

{quoted} And that is not easy when your enemy and jump around and throw shurikens at you.

Well no, that's the thing. If the Zed in question is burning his W for harassing/farming, he literally can't jump (away) if you time your engages correctly. This is important to remember because most AP Mid Laners' own harass tools are usually outright stronger than Zed's shurikens if you can work around his shadows.

coppinslingerJan 13, 20152 votes

I don't think the champs are overpowered, but like you said very frustrating to play against. In general this is why I don't like mid-lane, there are a lot of champions with extremely BS mechanics that take A LOT of mechanical and champion knowledge to work around. Moreover, the lane is very bursty, so there is little forgiveness for screwing up (making champion picks and counters most important in this lane IMO).

In general though, I think that "counterplay" to assassins generally lies in the assassin making a really dumb mistake (which happens a lot, we're all human) or in relying on your team to CC and protect you from said assassin (especially later in the game). In both scenarios, you are largely at the whims of the competence of your enemy or your teammates, thus making for a largely unsatisfying interaction between you and said assassin. This is why when an assassin dominates a game, it feels like there was nothing you could do about it (because likely, there wasn't much you could do).

Statistically however, Zed and Fizz aren't overpowered. Bullshit mechanics tied to their kits? Yes. Frustrating as hell to play against? Yes. Result in un-fun games for their opponents? Yes. Overpowered? No.

Riot can't nerf these champs because not everyone has Faker level mechanics and can dominate every game they are in. If they were nerfed, they'd never see any play because the skill floor to play them (and win) would be way too high.

Unfortunately, the current situation is that the right assassin, with the right team compositions, in the right soloQ game can completely ruin the experience for 1/2 of the people in it. This is why you see so much QQ for those champs on the forums.

Zenzen3Jan 13, 20151 votes

Well the thing is that they are frustrating to play against. It's really not that hard to pick up those assassins and start working people over. What I am saying is that make them less frustrating. It is already enough for some people to quit some games when they have to deal with Zed after Zed each game. That's not fun is it? Just my two cents trying to make the game more fun instead of becoming a pro - level players playground.

coppinslingerJan 13, 20151 votes

Honestly, I'd agree with you. The whole design of assassins are anti-fun.

Unfortunately, the current iteration of assassin mechanics are NON-INTERACTION with the targets they are assassinating (rather interaction with everybody else around that target).

The general idea is to get on the target's face, blow your load on that target, make the target's screen turn grey in .5 seconds, and get out scotch free (not to mention that they can turn around and burst other targets after maybe 5-6 seconds later). Inherently this design is only fun for one-person involved.

What's worse? The cooldowns that allow squishy targets to survive are tied to 5 or 4 minute cooldowns (flash, heal, barrier, exhaust) but the worst amount of time an assassin has to wait until their entire load is up again (except ignite) is maybe 1 and a half minutes.

Assassins are great for pro-level play where team-play is prevalent. Their current design is toxic to casual play however.

RaptameiJan 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, I'd agree with you. The whole design of assassins are anti-fun.

Bawwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

Counter-Strike is anti fun because there's no counterplay after you fucked up and end up staring down someone's barrel while you're reloading. Dota is anti fun because there's no counterplay after you fucked up

You don't deserve counterplay after you fuck up.

Zed is OP even though he's a pretty shitty assassin, because he's too good at everything else. Fizz is OP because of his mobility and tons of CC for an assassin, not because "omg I shitpicked Lux against him and missed my binding, nurf pole plz".

coppinslingerJan 14, 20151 votes

I'm not entirely sure what point you are trying to make. You "bawwww" my comment and then turn around and say Zed and Fizz are OP.

Do you mean that assassins are indeed fun for gameplay (both for the assassin and the targets being assassinated) but that assassins are OP regardless?

Also I don't understand where your comments about counterplay and screwing up are directed at...

I agree with the sentiment in general that players should be punished for their mistakes, but there comes a point when certain champions can too easily punish or can too easily escape punishment (ie Zed and Fizz?)

RaptameiJan 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm not entirely sure what point you are trying to make. You "bawwww" my comment and then turn around and say Zed and Fizz are OP.

Just saying that "it's not fun to lose" should not impact balance in any way.

Zed and Fizz are OP because their top elo pickrate and/or banrate and/or winrate are too high, not because they can "too easily escape" (read "I care very much about KD"). This was the exact stupid reason why Leblanc was nerfed: trash winrate at any elo below LCS tier, but OH NOES SHE'S PREVENTING ME FROM HAVING THE KD I DESERVE, SHE'S OP.

coppinslingerJan 15, 20151 votes

I understand that "fun" shouldn't affect balance, but in that regard, I wasn't talking about balance. I play League of Legends for fun. When I get blown up because the enemy assassin who uses multiple dashes, invulnerability, and high burst to kill me almost instantly from a screen away, I'm not having fun. I feel like there is nothing I could (obviously there are things I can do, but like I mentioned earlier, containing assassins is largely a teamplay issue, which is uncommon in soloQ). Balance aside, assassin mechanics are just aren't great for casual play.

Otherwise, I personally don't find assassins to be too OP in general, just very frustrating to play against. I could definitely be wrong though, assassins could just be freaking OP (in the right hands, I think they definitely are).

Zenzen3Jan 14, 20151 votes

*Bump

I want to see more discussion! And more tips on what exactly to do when playing against these guys.

RaptameiJan 14, 20151 votes

The game is about more than "who wins lane".

Fizz and Zed are OP because they are too strong, not because they "win lane".

You guys got Leblanc with her 45% winrate nerfed because she "always wins lane" and this gaggle of retards therefore concluded she's OP.