The REAL reason why waveclear mid meta arose, and why people want assassins back

What is Broken··26 votes·10,044 views

Jungle. Junglers are so overpowered that they can simply build item 3077 or be GravesMasterYiShyvana and have farm equivalent to a laner while clearing extremely fast. And as a laner, you cannot contest a jungler's farm at any point of the game due to the existence of summoner 11 and you will be collapsed on by a minimum of 2 people on the enemy team. The only player that can contest a jungler is another jungler, there is absolutely no counterplay from a laner perspective. Yes, you can avoid ganks and play safe, but that's not really counterplay. If the enemy jungler forces you to play safe, they've done their job as it lets their laner free farm and have an opportunity to roam. Alternatively, they can just pick a scaling jungler, free farm, and be allowed to duel everyone in the game which is why Shyvana was broken earlier this season. Also coupled with the fact that they have complete objective control provided they're competent because you can't outsmite them unless you are a Chogath or a lane Nunu and if your jungler is underleveled, your team straight up cannot contest baron/dragon unless your team is significantly stronger as a whole.

Now you may ask, where does the waveclear meta come into play? Because junglers clear very fast and achieve uncontestable laner farm, it disincentivizes solo killing because the moment you try to go for a solo kill, the jungler could show and fuck your shit up and you cannot fight back because they are the same level as you + the existence of the shit design that is challenging smite combined with red buff. It doesn't matter if you warded, with the removal of buyable green wards, it's impossible to have all sides warded, so if they just so happen to gank from the unwarded side, you straight up just lost the lane. Bonus points if the enemy jungler pink wards your lane to camp it while your jungler just afks in the jungle or ganks another lane. So the obvious and logical conclusion to this is to just pick strong waveclear champs, so that you secure your farm as fast as possible, shorten the window enemy jungle influence, and give yourself the opportunity to roam. There's no reason to try to 1v1 your lane opponent which can be easily met with jungler resistance when you can just waveclear from a safe distance and let yourself scale off of farm. Coupled with the nerfs to assassins over the years, they can no longer 100-0 you at level 6 extremely quickly if you misstepped.

And this brings me to my next point, the reason why jungle didn't seem that big of a problem in past seasons was due to the fact that assassins were very strong at this time(think s3-s5) which after this point also marked the start of League's decline. Assassins at this point in time didn't have delayed burst which meant that they could kill their laners very quickly if they were good, so fast that by the time the enemy jungler came out of the river/tribush, the assassin had already killed their lane opponent and were on the run. Even if they were not going for a solo kill, assassins had the mobility to escape ganks and effectively canceled out jungle influence. With their burst and mobility, they could also roam, so even if your jungler was complete trash, you could disregard such a player and snowballed off of other lanes very hard. This is the main reason why Zoe was considered by many to be broken and overpowered, because she had the burst of an assassin back in S3 while also having the range and safety of a meta waveclear champ today, and she could also roam if she picked up TP with her W. And because snowball was very strong in the past, with 3 kills or so, you could effectively start 1v2ing your laner and the enemy jungler. While obviously we know now that snowballing was horribly balanced in the past because you straight up just lost the game if you died twice to something like a Riven who could 1v5 with enough items, it was masking an even worse problem by design that is jungle.

Jungle has no counterplay as a laner, and the only time jungle is ever a "bad" role is when it's overshadowed by overtuned burst champs and snowball mechanics. In order to give back laners the solo carry potential we all remember while still keeping the counteplay of assassins relatively balanced, jungle HAS to be reworked to have significantly less influence in the early game (a good idea of what this would be like is the way jungle works in Dota, farming is significantly slower in the early levels, so slow that you don't have any opportunity to gank in the first 10 minutes, and it ramps up later in the game so that you can still scale just as hard as a laner) , in order to give people incentive to actually try to kill their lane opponent. Because right now, the risk of trying to kill your lane opponent and try to snowball far outweighs the possible reward. And honestly, no one likes junglers, not even junglers themselves, so there would be no loss if jungle got nerfed to be more in line with other roles.

TL;DR Jungle influence is what's killing solo carry potential and solo killing in lanes, waveclear meta arose in response to this, and is what I believe to be the main reason why League is declining, and the role needs to be reworked if Riot wants to make their game enjoyable again.

38 Comments

Bishasaurus Flex22 votes

People want Assassins back?

Athenes Lulu2 votes

I know support mains do because 5v4 is better than 5v5, where they can just deny assassins super easily :^^^^^^))))))

[sg-lulu]

BALDG1VEN BOOMER2 votes

Funny enough some of the most banned champions are assassins right now because everyone just loves em.

  1. Yasuo at 56.18% (Only counting him cause he’s in that dark harvest game mode of whatever it’s called)

  2. Kha’Zix at 54.56%

  3. LeBlanc at 43.65% (Nice revert LUL)

  4. Zed at 31.94%

  5. Evelynn at 29.50%

Others with marginal ban rates:

  1. Fizz at 18.29%

  2. Kassawin at 17.38%

  3. Pantheon at 5.79% (Same reason as Yasuo)

  4. Katarina at 5.39%

  5. Master Yi at 4.53%

I know 5% may not seem like a big amount but it’s still quite a large amount if you were to take 5% of the leagues population into consideration for something.

http://na.op.gg/champion/statistics

AirKingNeo11 votes

is that why the meta junglers don't build tiamat and are sejuanni and kha? You've lost me with your argument.

No mention of this waveclear meta not existing before Lost Chapter was added? Y'know, the item that gives mana and damage, the perfect waveclear combo?

Yaśuo Main10 votes

I like how you listed 3 junglers with very good waveclear but you dont mention their horrible ganks?

Hibeki10 votes

Red buff means anyone can gank. Slows on auto attacks is cancer.

Blåbæret8 votes

Yi/Shyv literally have to walk up in your face to even do anything. If you get ganked by these champs you 100% deserve it.

Also, Yi and Shyv are hard-farmers, that's what they're designed to do thanks to their horrible gank potential.

Hibeki8 votes

You dont need a gapcoser to gank well, and for one thing yi has a decent gapcloser.

Yaśuo Main8 votes

On a 20+ second CD, while basically needing red buff to be functional as a ganking JG

2Charmnot2Charm5 votes

Wait why does the gap close cooldown matter when you're only going to be using it once in a gank?

Just walk up and hit the laner with red buff autos and if they are dumb enough to flash then you can use your Q?

If you're burning it to farm jungle minions when there is a lane in a gankable position that's your fault.

Also if your laner has CC then it shouldn't matter if you have red buff or not.

Yaśuo Main2 votes

Wait why does the gap close cooldown matter when you're only going to be using it once in a gank?

because if you dash away or flash after he Q's then there is nothing he can do.

Just walk up and hit the laner with red buff autos and if they are dumb enough to flash then you can use your Q?

I like how you say "if they are dumb enough to flash" but you dont mention that them letting you walk up and hit you with red buff auto attacks is dumb? They deserve to die by then.

If you're burning it to farm jungle minions when there is a lane in a gankable position that's your fault

nothing to do with what i said but okay

Also if your laner has CC then it shouldn't matter if you have red buff or not.

Yes it should unless ur laner is fking morgana, and even then they have to land the CC. There is little to 0 hard CC in the game that can peel Yi for when enemy laner is far away.

2Charmnot2Charm2 votes

because if you dash away or flash after he Q's then there is nothing he can do.

Name one jungler that has a gap closer on a 2-5 second cooldown during early laning phase i'll wait. It's common sense to force that laner to burn their flash/mobilty spell before you do so yourself.

I like how you say "if they are dumb enough to flash" but you dont mention that them letting you walk up and hit you with red buff auto attacks is dumb? They deserve to die by then.

Because they are a idiot to not flash before jungler hits them with a red buff auto attack, i thought that was obvious.

nothing to do with what i said but okay

Then why mention the fact that a jungler has a 20 second cooldown gap closer? It doesn't matter what the cooldown is because you will only be able to use it ONCE every gank early game.

Yes it should unless ur laner is fking morgana, and even then they have to land the CC. There is little to 0 hard CC in the game that can peel Yi for when enemy laner is far away.

Morg can also just ult to slow and stun them but w/e, and if you're ganking a lane where your laner can't back you up because they have to deal with a big minion wave or too low on hp that's your fault.

Yaśuo Main1 votes

Name one jungler that has a gap closer on a 2-5 second cooldown during early laning phase i'll wait. It's common sense to force that laner to burn their flash/mobilty spell before you do so yourself.

i just said Yi has a 20 sec gapcloser cooldown

Because they are a idiot to not flash before jungler hits them with a red buff auto attack, i thought that was obvious.

I'm pretty sure waiting for them to auto attack you is being an idiot, why risk dying.

It doesn't matter what the cooldown is because you will only be able to use it ONCE every gank early game.

which goes to my point that they have nothing to do if you use mobility after they use a gap closer. also, do you think red buff slows you when they are near you like sunfire cape? because it doesn't.

Morg can also just ult to slow and stun them but w/e

and blow everything, and then they will flash the Q beforehand.

if you're ganking a lane where your laner can't back you up because they have to deal with a big minion wave or too low on hp that's your fault.

again nothing to do with what I'm saying

LordGeovanni1 votes

Gap closers are needed more than once per gank for melee champions you have to gap close to reach the target initially then gap close after they use their cc to run or mobility to run.

2Charmnot2Charm3 votes

Gap closers are needed more than once per gank

https://i.imgur.com/1JtpGBk.png

https://i.imgur.com/SrP1kOI.png

https://i.imgur.com/UFy9dkS.png

https://i.imgur.com/SE5Xgov.png

https://i.imgur.com/0EczBh7.png

https://i.imgur.com/q7CaZn9.png

https://i.imgur.com/5LaR4vm.png

https://i.imgur.com/tZFB3qY.png

Ok so tell me how you are pulling off 2 gap closers (without using flash) with cooldowns like these during early game ganks?

Even graves has a long cooldown on his dash and it's for a good reason. The only two exceptions to this 10+ cooldown rule is Kayn and Warwick with 7 and 6 seconds cooldown respectively, but the enemy still would have to be super overextended for you to make use of those two times.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Exactly You arent pulling off 2 gap closers YOu have to run at the enemy early game and use gap closers after they use their mobility/ stuns. You say the gap closer cooldown doesnt matter because you q in at the beginning of a gank and red buff does the rest of the work which is bs. Red buff doesnt even factor into it until after the enemy has already ran half a lane away. because if you q in people will then stun / slow you and run away or use a movement speed boost / dash maybe even flash

2Charmnot2Charm1 votes

You say the gap closer cooldown doesnt matter because you q in at the beginning of a gank and red buff does the rest of the work which is bs.

Good job misreading this line then

Just walk up and hit the laner with red buff autos and if they are dumb enough to flash then you can use your Q?

I clearly stated that junglers are supposed to be saving their gapclosers till after they forced the enemy to burn their mobility spell/flash.

LordGeovanni1 votes

with the magic of edit anything can be said

2Charmnot2Charm1 votes

Doesn't matter cause i never edited the post in the first place.

Get your glasses on before you read next time.

Metal Janna3 votes

{quoted}

Yi/Shyv literally have to walk up in your face to even do anything. If you get ganked by these champs you 100% deserve it.

Also, Yi and Shyv are hard-farmers, that's what they're designed to do thanks to their horrible gank potential.

Yeah, because you can totally escape a Yi who comes flying out of the bush with extra movespeed, immunity to slows, and a gap closer that allows him to dodge anything he's too close to run around.

CppL2 votes

{quoted}

Yi/Shyv literally have to walk up in your face to even do anything. If you get ganked by these champs you 100% deserve it.

Also, Yi and Shyv are hard-farmers, that's what they're designed to do thanks to their horrible gank potential.

You dont need a gapcloser to gang.You can gang from behind ,you have red buff , most of the laners have hard cc so its not hard to pull off a gang if you know what you doing.Plus Yi had a prety good gap closer ,you can even dodge enemy cc if you know what you doing.

3ternalkarma5 votes

i thought the passive waveclear crap arose because one kill/death decided games for the most part as the snowball on this game is insane so people just afk farm and hope the enemy messes up

SpecterVonBaren5 votes

No, the problem is that you don't have trading anymore, you have trad-no wait its an all in. You want to know why so many enchanter supports are playing like heal bots now a days? Damage. Whether it's an all in support keeping you from even poking your head out or a burst ADC shooting your head off with a couple autos. Used to be that you'd have to weave some autos into your trading patterns, not enhanced autos, just regular, "I'm going to hit you" autos, now there's so much huge damage and mobility that doing that will just get you killed.

RocketRelm1 votes

Yeah, I just got done watching some content from season 4-6 league era, and it was kind of amazing how much damage has gone up and defenses have creeped down, just on a "system wide" scale. True, assassins don't kill you in 0.5 seconds, but "anything" kills you in 1.5 seconds now, and building defenses matters less and less with every patch.

Bisaknosp4 votes

? assassins are back what are you talking about they seem to be balanced around an enemy lulu/janna being in the enemy team because if not they can be obnoxious af i dont see them being weak at all they already dominate and idgaf about whats played in the lcs

Handin Out Naps3 votes

Or you know supports started becoming kinda ridiculous and playing an assassin was basically trolling when the enemy mid laner could just afk push and never run out of mana, then proceed to out scale you. Thats just my 2 cents though.

LordGeovanni1 votes

I don't agree with the supports part supports got some much needed buffs to even be relevant their shields are still tiny and hardly break 300 unless they stack ap. Its just that when supports got more powerful adc power wasnt decreased appropriately so even though they only have about 230 in shields every 8-4 seconds from a support its enough for them to kill you while healing due to crit chance being too high (which they increased) life steal being really good which is even better because even though the reduced crit chance they increased ad. (not yet but is whats on the pbe now)

Handin Out Naps1 votes

Lol.

Nausicäa 2 votes

Assassins are already the most picked champions mid?? Get a clue.

AirKingNeo2 votes
NineTailedMystic1 votes

idk, 6 out of like the 8 mid lane Assassins are top 15.

Badnik962 votes

these are the kids riot listens to when deciding to make jungle changes. amazing.

may as well make jungle the dedicated autofill role, if what you want ever happens.

Soraka Rules2 votes

[{quoted}](name=What is Broken,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4dMo0E1j,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-05-04T19:33:43.549+0000)

the reason why jungle didn't seem that big of a problem in past seasons was due to the fact that assassins were very strong at this time(think s3-s5) which after this point also * marked the start of League's decline*. >

Lol do you have any information that this was the "start of League's decline* or are you just talking from that little bubble of yours

LordGeovanni1 votes

i gank junglers really easily as a top lane main. Mages arent supposed to be good at ganking junglers but can still steal blue from them if they dont see you ward so they wont smite.

Risen291 votes

None of your points logically follow from one to another.

Jungle farming speed has absolutely nothing to do with mid.

It's because ADCs are so strong in mid game that there's no point in playing a mid game AP carry or assassin. That window of usefulness before the ADC comes online is gone. So the only thing worth playing is a farming mid who can help out in teamfights.

Mhihnj1 votes

I thought it was because of the baron buff.

Daddy Ants1 votes

https://gyazo.com/63db5e69f695ef1119f74d0dc2397fef

Talon

5% pick rate 57.1% win rate.

That's a bit.... disturbing

ISLAMICWARRIOR991 votes

It rose because assassins are all outclassed by mages at bursting targets due to al the stupid delays they gave champs like kat fizz and lb

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