Why the assassin rework was unfair

Some Noob Dude·Aug 6, 2017·110 votes·4,803 views

Adding delayed damage to assassins was, and still is a good idea, you should be able to react before dying. Where the problem lies is that other classes can still delete you without delay. Right now, if you want to fulfill the fantasy of oneshotting someone, you might as well play a mage, or heck even an adc. Oh look, Lux landed a Q on you and has her skills up? Rip. Vayne as Infinity Edge, and static shiv? You better not get auto attacked 3 times! Caitlyn landed her net on you and autoed you? Rip half your health. Meanwhile Leblanc has the time to die 3 times before she can proc her mark.

172 Comments

ShablagooAug 7, 201738 votes

I thinking making the dmg conditional makes it more fair not delayed because if it is delayed it either has to be to strong or is to weak, if it is conditional like kha, talon, or kat it is balanced because there is clear counterplay. Most delayed champions like leblanc and fizz are broken or will keep getting nerfed because their is a phase were they are so ridiculous it isnt even funny or just useless. Make assassin burst conditional rather then delayed

SilverjustAug 7, 20173 votes

I did not think about it like this, this is brilliant.

there is probably a way to balance an assasin around delayed burst, but conditional burst is probably the better way

ShablagooAug 7, 20175 votes

Its funny cuz Riot themselves made this with burst mages, they are actually a fair example of burst in the game. One of the best examples is lux, she needs to land her skill shots to apply both her passive and land her other harder more bursty skill shots. Kha is an example of a assassin with conditional burst too, isolated targets give him his maximum burst not to say that he doesnt do dmg without being isolated but there is a significant difference. Burst mages have to hit their cc to land the rest of their skillshots pretty similar to other mages, this makes it fair because you can dodge the skillshots. For some reason riot wanted to add this idea that delaying burst makes it fair, but it doesnt because assassin will have to be either tanky, which is why we got assassins like bruiser shaco, or the burst is way to much like fizz and leblanc. I do think Fizz is fair though, but to much power is in his ult. Idk Riot was to focused on making burst delayed instead of actually making them fair.

Infinite SaughtAug 7, 20173 votes

Kat's might be conditional, but it's also delayed as well. She literally falls off late game (probably even more than pre-update) because 1.25 seconds is enough for an adc/Syndra to blow her up.

zaire90Aug 7, 20174 votes

just played a game where i felt that by alot. also preupdate didnt fall off late game but she payed for that with a garbage early game

TwitchInMyPantsAug 7, 20178 votes

Yeah I'm ok with getting nuked if they have to fish to earn it. If Blitz is fine I'm ok with a mage or assassin fishing out a combo, Talon is very position dependant and usually when he owns me I feel I usually had a chance to respond with wards or ranged cc. I just think they need to figure out kits like Rengar's or LeBlanc's to where they aren't just trash or god tier, they both have a variety of tools for an assassin and their burst condition is just "Spam/combo abilities". I think their gameplay is more fair than it used to be though I think there's still cleanup to do with the power budgets.

NineTailedMysticAug 6, 201722 votes

Oh look, Lux landed a Q on you and has her skills

Travel time is her delay.

OriyokiAug 7, 20172 votes

half a second? Then all damage comes pretty much instantly.

NineTailedMysticAug 7, 201711 votes

Only if it's point blank and that is not where she wants to be.

Whip it goodAug 7, 20174 votes

you have enough time to qss/zhonya

OriyokiAug 7, 20172 votes

Considering Lux has R on 30s cooldown, I don't see how it's a effective counterplay. Zhonyas is far more effective than QSS though.

AbyssphereAug 7, 20175 votes

The other counterplay is to dodge her Q. Between dodging abilities and having a specific insurance item you should never be dying to Lux's combo. Your problem is that you are asking what the counterplay is when hit by Q when the counterplay is supposed to happen before that point. She hits Q, she wins. You dodge Q, she loses. Completely fair.

Whip it goodAug 7, 20177 votes

Well if anyone could escape Lux's Q and ult 24/7 then she would be fucking garbage. Don't fight her and wait your items to be ready. Let's not talk about how easy it is to sidestep her Q.

OriyokiAug 7, 20173 votes

"don't fight her" "don't get near her" I guess we'll all sit in fountain and ignore her existence. Good logic.

RavenMagusAug 7, 20173 votes

Lux has a lot of drawbacks come late game.

Find an ADC alone? ADC flashes over her Q, and it doesn't matter if she also has flash or not, she's dead either way.

Find an ADC that's not alone? ADC gets hit by Q, but locket/shields make them survive her burst, now she's useless.

Then you have Guardian Angel and Zhonyas completely invalidating her combo.

Lux can be very powerful midgame but there's many, many games where she just becomes useless and there's nothing she can do anymore.

Some Noob DudeAug 7, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Travel time is her delay.

I know, I know, but she can do it from a much safer position than any assassin ever will.

0 HogapuAug 7, 201711 votes

But she doesnt have the mobility every assassin has. Mages are never really safe but always can do damage, while assassins cant be safe while doing damage - and thats is for the good.

SettDownShutUpAug 7, 201712 votes

I think Twitch is my favorite 'assassin'. Pick your target, don't get too close, take him out, and run away and stealth before your opponent can catch you hopefully.

PoskeAug 7, 20176 votes

Targets* , them*

Nami Want SalamiAug 7, 201711 votes

I get one shot by AP blitz faster than I do against leblanc

Fools HesltateAug 7, 20179 votes

The problem with assassins wasn't that they could erase you, it was that they could erase you and then dash away to safety with insane mobility.

Veigar might be able to delete you late game with zero counter-play but he's likely going to die immediately after if your team can follow up in any way, as he has no escape.

There are some outliers to this concept,mostly to be found in the bruiser-carry section, but that's a problem with specific champions, not classes. Thus it's not relevant to the topic.

Edit- And let's not act like lengthening their burst patterns was a Nerf. Lowering damage allowed Riot to implement insane bullshit like stealth ignoring pink wards. I would take old Shaco and Rengar in a heartbeat since you could at least see them entering your lane.

FefnilAug 7, 20177 votes

On the other hand they have the best mobility in game class wise, or at least this is the current concept design. Even if it's delayed and other classes have an instant burst, they can't still be compared, since they can literally jump around and dodge everything while killing you, while Lux can't. That's the reason why assassin is the most mechanically intensive class and one of the most difficult decision making ones.

The 14th AngelAug 7, 20176 votes

revert all assassins back to 6.21!! before the garbage rework!!!

notice me Sin piAug 7, 201715 votes

tbh i think talon rework is actually great. He can 100-0 a squishy if he plans it out well, but at same time doesnt feel so unfair as a squishy either. Everything else sucks tho.

Some Noob DudeAug 7, 20179 votes

[{quoted}](name=notice me Sin pi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4GlWK1Wo,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-08-07T02:28:30.127+0000)

tbh i think talon rework is actually great. He can 100-0 a squishy if he plans it out well, but at same time doesnt feel so unfair as a squishy either. Everything else sucks tho.

Yes, some assassins got a satisfying rework, but a lot of them just left a sour taste in people's mouths. Katarina and Talon got it fine, but the rest..

Sun Wu RyuumokuAug 7, 20176 votes

Akali Shaco were already planned to have another update.

zippyHDAug 7, 20176 votes

This assassin rework is such a joke, there is a reason they are "assassins" - as it is right now, you can actually remove the title "assassin" and give them a new name.

Big Black CrocAug 7, 20175 votes

You need to play better assassins man. Like Cho gath, Annie, Twitch.

Elemental LuxAug 7, 20176 votes

Lux has a delay on her damage man. Plus it's required for her to land her Q on you it she doesn't have help. Lux gives you a neat little warning before you're hit too, your support can locket or crucible you easy.

Supreme Senpai69Aug 7, 20175 votes

Unpopular opinion here. But I think it was fair. Lux landing Q on you and you dying instantly is fair because you see the Lux. She has no mobility even remotely. Her Q is a skillshot that is pretty telegraphed. The counterplay there is not being hit by the Q. There's absolutely no surprises from her. Meanwhile...

It's actually hard to find an example. They changed a lot of assassins to be healthy. LB can't instaburst you from off screen anymore. Katarina has clear zones of power that you can't infringe upon and she can't randomly just pop in and erase you. Rengar was nerfed. Talon was changed.

But the issue used to be that you just died. Like, from off screen, an assassin appears behind you through stealth or mobility and just pops you and you have to take it. You should be able to see it coming and move away. One second you're playing the next you're not. With Varus you can stay out of his AA range or trade with him if you can win. It might not have been much of a choice but it was a choice. He can't force a fight on you. You have to choose to fight. Same with Caitlyn and Lux.

With old Rengar or anyone else really, they chose the fight and you didn't know you were fighting till you were already dead.

It wasn't fair. But now it is, I'd argue

DemainaNyxAug 7, 20175 votes

I personally like stuff like Zed's ult and Fizz's ult. Both are very obviously their strong damage part. You can outplay it, they can outplay with it. It is delayed, giving your said time to outplay it, and it doesn't really throw them into the middle of a fight (Zed's does, but most don't just run in and ult the minute a teamfight starts unless it's to dodge something).

Leblanc's is sorta forced in my opinion, especially since it doesn't get shorter with CDR or anything. Yeah, it was completely BS how before Leblanc would literally W, Q, E, and then pop back to CSing while you now have 50% hp. Plus the fact she has a delay on being able to reapply her passive now just means she's essentially a poke mage, not an assassin. If her passive didn't have a target cooldown, Leblanc could use W to gap close, land E which popped her passive, QRQ to pop passive again and she would be able to actually burst people with the delay still being present. Or you could change it so that after she's hits 6 and she procs the passive, her abilities do an extra bit of damage during the cooldown period. That way there is a delay to allow you to outplay, and then burst if you don't.

Also her passive delay isn't lowered in gamemodes like URF, which seems really unfair considering everyone can spam but your spam literally has a forced delay.

It's also completely unfair that an ADC gets 3 crits in a row and you instantly die even if you have armor. With Lux at least she had to hit a slow moving skillshot first. Caitlyn I feel depends, because you had to be pretty close to be hit by said net but eating a trap you literally can't see (hidden behind teammate, under dead bodies, randomly invisible, etc) I'll agree is bullshit though.

KairoptraAug 7, 20174 votes

Not gonna say anything one way or the other on the issue itself, but you're a little late to the party, my friend.

Some Noob DudeAug 7, 20176 votes

{quoted}

Not gonna say anything one way or the other on the issue itself, but you're a little late to the party, my friend.

I know, I just wanted to raise the issue again, recently, playing assassins just doesn't feel right. I'm not saying they're weak, they just don't "feel" right.

ElipoAug 7, 20178 votes

What abput cho? Hes the best assassin in this meta

Always angry tbhAug 7, 20174 votes

I've kinda been thinking and I guess that the item options might be a bit of a problem. What about an item that delays all healing and shielding on a target for 1,5 seconds. After the 1,5 seconds, the target will instantly receive all the heals and shields that were delayed. This gives them a window to apply their delayed burst without it being negated. It should be point and click like gunblade or DFG. (R.I P DFG)

Also, to be honest, Lethality should be toned down a bit so that assassins will be less oppressive mid-game, but give them a bit more late-game scaling in return. Getting insta'd by a 2/0 Zed isn't really fun but watching that Zed cry in a corner once the midlaner has a Zhonya's and the ADC has a GA and it's past 30 minutes kinda makes me feel bad for him.

HellioningAug 7, 20174 votes

Ah, yes, the good old 'delete Soraka from the game' item. Fun.

Always angry tbhAug 7, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Ah, yes, the good old 'delete Soraka from the game' item. Fun.

Well, she still has her silence. I am pretty sure that the damage part even pops Edge of the Night and the silence part will still affect them. Besides, they can still be cced. Another also: If you know how an assassin is played, you'll know where to ward. Shaco has to use his Q somewhere, you know. Then there'd still be exhaust.

Besides, I said it should still let you heal and shield the target, it'd just be delayed for 1,5 seconds so if the target doesn't die before that (example: stun Talon before he can proc his passive) they'd just receive a big heal and shield to negate the rest of their damage anyway. The item should be exclusively built on Assassins so that it can't be abused. Make it suck on (almost) everyone else somehow.

DuskDaUmbreonAug 7, 20176 votes

Saying that she still has her silence is like saying she still has her autos...

Big LincolnAug 6, 20173 votes

balancing assassins around oneshot is the problem

lower their burst some and give the AD ones higher attack speed

ZephyrDrakeAug 6, 201726 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4GlWK1Wo,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-08-06T20:36:00.198+0000)

balancing assassins around oneshot is the problem

lower their burst some and give the AD ones higher attack speed

attack speed... how does that help them? the entire point of an assassin is to assassinate their target, get out and then hope that was enough for their team to win fights. What assassins need if you really want to lower their burst is a way to make them slightly more useful in teamfights not something that won't really accomplish much in the long run... specially when it offers nothing to the AP assassins

Big LincolnAug 6, 20173 votes

more attack speed means they don't need to obliterate you in .1 seconds or you lifesteal it off and laugh at them for being useless

DreadlocksAug 6, 201714 votes

Rengar item 3142 are 2 examples of riot removing attack speed from assassins.. I don't think they agree with your theory.

Big LincolnAug 6, 20171 votes

riot was wrong on both

DreadlocksAug 6, 20175 votes

Then every1 is a diver/fighter/skirmisher?

NineTailedMysticAug 6, 201720 votes

Ghostbade's AS was removed because of ADCs not Assassins.

DreadlocksAug 7, 20174 votes

The AS was removed to narrow down what the item is for instead of giving a bulk of stats in every area.. MS, AS, AD, Lethality, Crit, (gold income bk in s4).. it did too much of everything, and they wanted it to fit a smaller group instead of being appealing to every class.. (or rather, many classes)

They couldve easily made it another ADC item.

NineTailedMysticAug 7, 20173 votes

The base stats attached to Youmuu’s Ghostblade were a bit of a grab-bag for physical damage, making it useful for basically every AD-focused champion. Most of its unintended users benefit too much from the active’s attack speed, so we’re removing it.

6.22 Patch Notes, where its unintended users were ADCs.