Stop decrease AP item cost and total AP.

Tranoze·Apr 13, 2016·91 votes·3,460 views

Mid laners are not that poor. We want more AP and stats, not cheaper and weaker items. Only supports does. Remember the days when AP items got 120 AP and only have 45 magic resist?

66 Comments

ScramrailApr 13, 201623 votes

Remember when they increased the cost of AP items but didn't increase the AP on said items to compensate (and in fact reduced the AP on some because reasons)? Its nice of them to finally lower the prices back down to reasonable levels again, but because of that they have to further nerf the AP on those items obviously.

Sometimes I wonder what riot is smoking when they come up with these decisions.

SquarefighterApr 14, 20162 votes

They increased the costs of a lot of items at the start of the season because they were pumping a lot more gold in the game to compensate.

YCitizenSnipsYApr 14, 20164 votes

Remember when all those items where incredibly cheap compared to AD. compare old Hourglass, Deathcap, and DFG to Infinitey edge, BT and Mercurial Simitar in cost vs stats.

Also remember when MR sucked ass which is why Riot had to buff it across the boards, since back in the day the only two viable MR items were BV and Spirit Visage.

good4nothinApr 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Sometimes I wonder what riot is smoking when they come up with these decisions.

Dollar bills.

CrazedPorcupineApr 14, 20164 votes

Stat efficiency. AP items were always vastly more stat efficient compared to their AD counterparts. Old Zhonya's (Pre-preseason changes) cost 3200 gold. It's stat efficiency? 3900 without the active. Lower the AP, increase the cost, and it's about 85% cost efficient. Post 6.9 changes, Zhonyas will actually be about 90% gold efficient.

RoA right now - 105% gold efficient on purchase, 185% gold efficient when fully stacked, RoA after the changes - 90% efficient on purchase, 160% gold efficient when fully stacked, not including it's unique passives.

All of the changes Riot is doing is trying to bring all AP items in line with each other while giving them distinct uses instead, This item boosts my damage in an arbitrary way. Or "This AP item is the most efficient, so that's what I buy, regardless of whether I need the passives or not."

Zhonya's will be fine, RoA will be fine, ALL THE AP ITEMS WILL BE FINE.

LovelleApr 13, 20168 votes

I remember. As a tank player, it was awful.

Only tanks that were remotely playable had %dmg reduction and/or bonus resistance scaling. Anything less was benched.

KnoyleApr 13, 20163 votes

So Galio was relevant?

AMYS GRAVEApr 13, 20169 votes

What is that?

MunchCrunchLunchApr 13, 20166 votes

I think its a Definitely Not Vel Koz skin

TonyTonyMordecaiApr 13, 20165 votes

I think its that rock i got for halloween

HethaleanApr 13, 20166 votes

Yeah it does seem that full build mages will have a lot less total AP at the end of this rework.

chipndip1Apr 14, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Yeah it does seem that full build mages will have a lot less total AP at the end of this rework.

Almost as if this is exactly what happened with the marksmen update...

Critmaster GarenApr 13, 20165 votes

here is the problem.

mages want to be capable of surviving assassins and not get completely stomped by them. so riot put out a lot more health items for mages with all those new catalyst items so they get to be a bit safer to assassin burst and have a chance to survive a 1 on 1.

you didnt really think being more tanky as a mage with all their range and utility would come without a tradeoff to your lategame damage, did you?

because thats exactly the problem we have with marksmen and assassins building bruiser items right now, and we dont need more of that.

however here is another problem this itemization is going to create. its making mages a whole lot stronger and safer on top lane with their higher defenses.

imo all these items are less going to help mid lane mages but massively buff top lane mages, and ap tanks with high ap ratios. like chogath.

XeroKimoApr 13, 20164 votes

My biggest problem with APs atm is that unless you get rabadons as your second ap item, you as a mage or any ap champions will have less AP in comparison to the AD of an AD assassin, when both of you have 2 items + boots

5050BSApr 13, 201610 votes

Yep AD items are flat out better for champs that want them AND they scale with AS and LS and more AD AND Armor/MR/HP

Mages Abilities should ALL do 30-40% more damage then any AD champ because our spells are our ONLY damage. All AD champs (even caster AD) can Auto attack and the AD works with it.

If Mages Auto attacks all got AP added on to them then we would be on the same level ground but they dont. Mages autos suck.

And Yet Riot seems to think its OK for Zed to get double Q and be fine with a 1.0 AD on top of a large base damage and yet a Mage has to have a Q with less then .8 AP and in a lot of cases less base damage. Yet in the end a Mage will only have maybe 10-20% more AP then Zeds AD But Zeds AD stacks on his autos AND he gets to his cap earlier then the Mage does.

JorenciceApr 13, 20162 votes

Psh speak for your self my karthus hits 950 ap. The MOST I've ever seen a zed at was 530 ad.

ImmortalBloodCYApr 14, 20161 votes

My veigar hits 1340 AP easily.

TerchioApr 13, 20164 votes

Remember Force of nature?

Actually, probably not. You're still missed, bud.

ImmortalBloodCYApr 14, 20161 votes

You will be missed Force of Nature.

Insert relevant song

cloman100Apr 14, 20161 votes

*inserts Heart Will Go On

Gnart Even CloseApr 13, 20163 votes

tanks want more MR items, so stop complaining. also, MR items are getting nerfed and mages are about to be way too strong especially since Riot is actually listening to the whiners on the boards

5050BSApr 13, 20165 votes

I dont trust riot to do this. So far over and over they buff Mobile AP, Mobile AD and Carry AD champs and items and nerf immobile AP champs and Items

Immobile champs play Defensively because it is how they work. They wait for the enemy to make a move and try to counter it and get a kill with their combos.

Riot seems to ONLY like Offensive play makers because if you are watching a LCS match everyone LOVES to see Zed or Ekko or Fizz go in for the kill under turret and get away. Fewer like to see the Karthus stand there Qing safe in lane waiting to Ult top or bot lane.

EVERYTHING Riot has done in the last 3 seasons has been to make LCS play makers look "Flashy" You can deny it but that does not make it false.

ImmortalBloodCYApr 14, 20161 votes

The guy is right however.

Gnart Even CloseApr 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I dont trust riot to do this. So far over and over they buff Mobile AP, Mobile AD and Carry AD champs and items and nerf immobile AP champs and Items

Immobile champs play Defensively because it is how they work. They wait for the enemy to make a move and try to counter it and get a kill with their combos.

Riot seems to ONLY like Offensive play makers because if you are watching a LCS match everyone LOVES to see Zed or Ekko or Fizz go in for the kill under turret and get away. Fewer like to see the Karthus stand there Qing safe in lane waiting to Ult top or bot lane.

EVERYTHING Riot has done in the last 3 seasons has been to make LCS play makers look "Flashy" You can deny it but that does not make it false.

i don't think it's just for lcs, although that is a big part (money drives companies' decisions, if it didn't they would go out of business). i think it simply is more fun to feel the impact of the flashy plays and feel like you are skillful in pulling them off (even though many zed/lee sin/etc players aren't). the problem is that they don't appreciate how flashy tanks can be, such as gnar and gragas. you can see the huge impact they have, but you are right in that it requires mobility. the only champions i can think of that is flashy and immobile is Darius getting dunk resets, although he is a juggernaut so he pulls some pretty crazy shenanigans. they should be looking into making everything look flashy, regardless of mobility levels, since that would make everything more interesting to watch and it would be better for long term game health imo

alfavhunterApr 14, 20163 votes

The problem with stats effective cost on AP items is this

It's not as effective as AD items unless the defective cost is very good

Why?

Ad items also benefit AAs and AD spells while AP items only benefit spells

These changes would not be so bad IF they buffed mages AP ratios a bit with the item changes, but then that's really just extra work they are putting into it when they could have just left the AP on items the same and not had to rebalance the other variables

Arakk01Apr 13, 20162 votes

Wait until you see the mage reworks. I'm expecting the bases AND scaling of the immobile mages being reworked to go up at least a bit, and less AP being available (especially on the go-to snowball items) will drastically offset the massive game-changing effect of the Hextech items being introduced. (If you didn't bother reading the 'Hextech Rocket Belt' will open up a TON of outplay potential for immobile mages especially, while sucking on anyone who is already mobile enough or who has no AP scaling.)

Very Hard EngageApr 13, 201615 votes

you're very mistaken if you believe someone like xerath or ziggs is going to use it to go in and actually use the active damage.

OP is right, damage builds, for when you need your mid laner to actually kill something with magic damage, is ATM destroyed.

but you're also right that we have to hope for champion changes to come through for us.

Arakk01Apr 13, 20162 votes

{quoted}

you're very mistaken if you believe someone like xerath or ziggs is going to use it to go in and actually use the active damage.

OP is right, damage builds, for when you need your mid laner to actually kill something with magic damage, is ATM destroyed.

but you're also right that we have to hope for champion changes to come through for us.

No, Xerath or Ziggs would easily use the active to get OUT of range. Or dodge a skillshot. Or evade an assassin.

Very Hard EngageApr 13, 201619 votes

not at 1200ms....

and 300 units.... "away" when the average zed Q is 900, or thresh hook of 1100

the people who will actually use this item are....

Ahri Annie Galio Gragas Amumu Cassiopeia Kassadin Katarina

not the longer range mages who are hurting (ori not a long range champ*) Karthus Veigar Syndra Ziggs Xerath Malzahar Orianna Viktor Zyra

Arakk01Apr 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

not at 1200ms....

and 300 units.... "away" when the average zed Q is 900, or thresh hook of 1100

If you have 1200ms ping you need to speak to your ISP. XD Also, watch some vids on the PBE; it's a targeted dash with almost the range of Flash. It would easily move you out of the way of a Zed Q or a Thresh hook. 300 units is a very powerful positioning tool.

IgotlazyApr 13, 201614 votes

He's not talking about his ping. He's taking about how fast the item moves you. It pushes you 300 units at a speed of 1200 units per second. It's basically a single Vayne Tumble that can't go over walls (like it's programmed not to). Flash is 425 units by the way. Saying it's almost the range of Flash is like saying 70% is almost 100%.

SagaxwikiApr 13, 20164 votes

I got a C on my test. Call me a genius.

AckelopeApr 13, 20162 votes

This is a relevant piece of information!

WyrmbladeApr 14, 20161 votes

It's a joke dude, the delivery was just a bit weird.

AckelopeApr 14, 20161 votes

I know, just seemed like an odd place for the joke to appear :p

If I didn't think it was a joke, I probably would've responded a little differently.

SagaxwikiApr 16, 20161 votes

The joke>>>>

(Your head)

AckelopeApr 17, 20161 votes

Yeah, in retrospect I admit my unfortunate failure... I have a terrible habit of taking things too literally at the wrong times :/

LlaniteApr 13, 20162 votes

The point is to make medium-ranged AP be able to play mid again, without directly buff AP items (which in turn also buffs long-ranged AP and assassins).

So yes, long-ranged AP are left out from this update.

5050BSApr 13, 20166 votes

Its like Riot hates the Immobile Mages. I have high hops for the reworks but I fear Riot will just make them worse... My Faith in Riot design keeps going down after almost every change they do.

IcyPepperApr 13, 20161 votes

[deleted]

Very Hard EngageApr 13, 20161 votes

but you're also right that we have to hope for champion changes to come through for us.

if you're going to quote, quote the whole thing.

IcyPepperApr 13, 20162 votes

bangs head across desk

I... don't even know how I missed that. That's the second time today alone.

I apologize, it's exam week and I took a break from studying.

I'm going to lay down now.

LlaniteApr 13, 20162 votes

In case you didnt notice, AP got nerfed as the number of long-ranged AP champs go up. The rest of the AP are collateral damage.

The problem with long-ranged AP being, with massive attack range, there is virtually no interaction if they choose not to, unless you are an assassin. This leads to 3 things:

Mid lane now contain ONLY long-ranged mage and assassins. Mid-range AP have to relocate top/support/jungle. Teemo, Kennen, Swain, Vlad, Kayle, FIdd?
AP items cannot contribute too much dmg, as these long-ranged AP will start poking people back to fountain one by one and teamfight cannot start.
Mana has to stay expensive, to not allow the long-ranged AP to poke infinitely.

They experiment with the rocket belt to yield some leeway to mid-ranged AP but apparently pulled back. I'm not surprised if they go back to "Nerf AP value" approach.

TNHA BaritoneApr 13, 20162 votes

Sooner or Later ADCs will be able to get more AD with 3 items than AP champs with their full build (if this trend continues)

RysophageApr 15, 20161 votes

i don't know any adcs that have more than 500+ AD.

RysophageApr 14, 20162 votes

( Few months ago) "AP items are too expensive omg" ... "OMG AP ITEMS ARE TOO CHEAP"

Are you a woman? because you seem to have no clue what you want at any given time.

Also, Yes i do remember when there was hardly any MR in this game after FoN got removed. that was one of the worst times in LoL.

TranozeApr 14, 20161 votes

That what support says, not mid mage. Do you know that high ranked midlaner has the most gold in the game? The days when AP item are still 3500/item they still be able to buy 2/3 mana pot + a pink ward every time they back to base. And they still be able to get the full set before any ADC. Now AP item cost only 3000/item, and no more mana pot. But mid laners cant even complete their full set.

A LiberalApr 14, 20162 votes

Woah woah, is it just me or did it get a little misogynistic in here?

RysophageApr 14, 20162 votes

If saying "men are pigs" "grow a pair" and assuming all men cheat or whatever is never called misandry, then no, it didn't. I find it very dumb that we live in a society where everything is misogynist and nothing is misandrist.

TNHA BaritoneApr 15, 20161 votes

this post isnt even about what you're talking about...you're lost