http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/09/92-pbe-update.html
Is 0.5 second increase to her ult knock up is all that is changing? I don't think her ult was mentioned at all when you guys came to discuss her changes previously.
What is the context behind these changes?
@Meddler
edit: Looks like plant AI has indeed been updated aswell
http://41.media.tumblr.com/e26f4848a4235ad1a15160725897367b/tumblr_nduw23bc4P1skbqqro1_1280.png
RiotCertainlyT25 votesWe're fixing bugs with her plant AI as well -- the kind that lead to plants idling enemies nearby or continuing to attacking a unit when she had basic attacked another.
The buff to Zyra's ult is to solidify her role as a potent counter-engage champion. If you dive into Zyra's team, you'd better be extremely fast acting or you're liable to be CC'd for 3.25 seconds. SmashGizmo's in charge of the change, but I think it matches her strategic identity well.
LankPants14 votesThe buff to Zyra's ult is to solidify her role as a potent counter-engage champion. If you dive into Zyra's team, you'd better be extremely fast acting or you're liable to be CC'd for 3.25 seconds. SmashGizmo's in charge of the change, but I think it matches her strategic identity well.
It also has the side effect of pushing her further into a support role, which I think is something that Zyra players have made clear we don't want.
There's a lot of buffs that could be good for Zyra, I'm not convinced this is one of them.
RiotCertainlyT27 votesThis is a buff to both solo lane and duo lane Zyra. Gold agnostic power is still power... if you want to play her mid, go for it! No reason to be spiteful over a buff that helps her in both situations.
We continue to think that Zyra should feel like a supportive midlane pick (high CC within role) and a mage-like support (high damage within role).
VDc0zCqe0w5 votesThis is a buff to both solo lane and duo lane Zyra. Gold agnostic power is still power... if you want to play her mid, go for it! No reason to be spiteful over a buff that helps her in both situations.
We continue to think that Zyra should feel like a supportive midlane pick (high CC within role) and a mage-like support (high damage within role).
yo mate are you gonna up the W AP ratio?
0.2 is pretty shitty even if it may look shitty because right now the plant AI is quite bugged, i don't know
oh, and manacosts: those are some 2012 archaic manacosts
Cuix25 votesGold agnostic power encourages players to play her in the duo lane. The opportunity cost of playing her mid rises compared to playing her duo, since one can access all of her power either way and other mages bring more gold-bought power.
It's similar to why tank Fizz and tank Ekko worked; one can benefit fully from their kits without investing in frivolous (or outright riskier) stats. Fizz and Ekko were properly pushed towards putting their gold into AP recently, encouraging their healthier assassin patterns. Zyra, meanwhile, is being encouraged to just care less about gold in general, pushing her towards support.
A buff is a buff, sure, but the placement of power is very important in terms of accessibility and compositional choices.
Silents4296 votesZyra mains complain about plant AI
They fix Plant AI
Now they complain it favors support more then mid despite that being a load of bs.
IxtaliKing2 votesZyra mains complain about plant AI
They fix Plant AI
Now they complain it favors support more then mid despite that being a load of bs.
Lol plant AI has always been 1 of a few of Zyra's problems.
Silents4293 votesOkay but it's been the most complained about.
It's challenging to just be glad Riot is finally taking a gander at your champion and following feedback isn't it?
IxtaliKing3 votesI think this is a game that we all enjoy and when 1 of your favourite characters is being looked at naturally you want to have some input. If people feel that some changes aren't going in the way they see as most beneficial they have a right to be heard, surely?
Silents4293 votesThat isn't what the person I responded to was doing, he was telling a dev that he was wrong.
That's not offering input on some ideas for Zyra.
Teechmehow2dougy3 votesYou can't improve something if people don't give feedback. Even if he came off a little condescending there's a lot of truth in what he said and it was very constructive. It's a lot easier to say it sucks outright and give nothing with it. Also I'm sure Zyra players are thankful for the QoL change that comes with AI improvements. It's just a little frustrating that support Zyra is doing quite well in the botlane already. Midlane Zyra should be the main beneficiary from the buffs.
Time and time again we've seen what happens when you give utility mages (or bruisers) raw power/utility without having to invest in it significantly.
LankPants5 votesThis is a buff to both solo lane and duo lane Zyra. Gold agnostic power is still power
I'm not arguing against that, but this is the wrong way to help Zyra mid, which, if you've been reading feedback you'd know is the preferred role amongst players.
There's better places you can add "gold agnostic power" to her kit that would help mid lane more than support. Namely movement speed and defensive stats.
Zyra mid doesn't have a problem with CC, she's already tied with Lulu, probably even slightly ahead in terms of the best CC on a control mage. But even with extra CC there's just no reason to pick her over Lulu. Sure she has better damage, but that damage is worthless because you lack a way to survive long enough to use it.
Buffs to Zyra's survivability would be the optimal way to allow her to function mid, whilst still maintaining function bot. Something along the lines of +10 MS and a small armour buff would probably make Zyra a fine mid laner. She'd also still be a viable support, they'd just be a reason to play Zyra mid if this was done.
TotN Titan4 votesThe mid lane role is such a vital role to overall map control and just by looking at the buffs she is receiving and where Riot has decided to focus their attention at tweaking her strengths, you can tell that filling her power in the mid lane role is not what they are looking at. Without tweaking her stats, you can see that she falls short of several of the categories that make her viable for the role and I am sure that Riot has done that intentionally. If you want to pick her there, they are more than happy to see you do it, but she is lacking and they are well aware of the fact they did it.
A good mid lane champion should have some kind of escape to combat the pressure that the jungle can place on their lane at a given moment. They should have better than average movement speed so that they can roam and effect their side lanes. They should have a kit capable of putting forth a great deal of damage, whether AP or AD based, through the mid game and into the late game OR have the ability to shield and buff their higher damage potential teammates during team fights (such as a Lulu). Not fulfilling these core aspects means that you are put in a disadvantageous position against another champion that better fits that role.
Maybe, given time or changes in how certain game aspects work, Zyra will find her way back into the mid lane, but for now, this is where Riot has decided she will remain. I don't see them tweaking her movement speed or scaling her armor a bit to make her a strong pick outside of support. She can be a strong late game presence in team fights if you manage to survive the mid lane in her current state, but on the whole, you will be relying on your team to pick up the slack until that time.
LankPants5 votesyou can tell that filling her power in the mid lane role is not what they are looking at.
Personally I find this very disappointing and actually somewhat disrespectful to Zyra players.
When Riot was asking about the community perception of Zyra there was an overwhelming majority of players who wanted Zyra to be primarily a mid lane mage and Riot seems to have completely disregarded that opinion.
Sipricy1 votesZyra is a champion that exceeds at killing champions if they get too close, or if Zyra can catch them off-guard. If you land your snare, you unload all of your damage and kill them. Her huge utility and damage come at the cost of mobility, and these are things that should be kept in line if anything is changed about Zyra (although I'd argue that nothing needs to be changed).
Zyra does not need an escape. If someone jumps on you, snare them, press Q, and make two ranged plants. Zyra is pretty good at turning things on people if they overcommit. Her large strengths in damage and utility require weaknesses elsewhere, and in this case, it's her mobility. She should not have higher movement speed or any sort of mobility skills.
She's maybe a little bit under average only because she's not your standard high mobility assassin. But honestly? That sort of diversity is good for the game. If you want to play a champion like Ahri, then... just play Ahri.
If she has to be buffed, I'd make her passive better in one of three areas: Missile width, missile speed, or time it takes to be able to actually fire the missile. Improve one of these areas - I'd suggest missile width or missile speed - and her passive would be fine. It's way too hard to even hit the darn thing. I have the feeling that one improvement on her passive would put her in a good spot.
Vekkna3 votesSorry, but I have to completely disagree with almost everything you say here. The damage gap between Zyra and Lulu in support is just gargantuan. On average Zyra does almost 250% of a support Lulu's damage on top of having an overall safer poke range and better dps kit.
In fact, support Zyra on average out-damages 7/19 ADCs, every jungler, 18/49 mid laners, and 38/50 top laners. Zyra is top 5 for highest mid lane damage. Support Zyra even significantly out-damages mid and top Lulu.
And honestly, you shouldn't be having a huge problem with surviving in mid outside a few matchups (fuck you, Viktor!). Her biggest issue in mid is early sustain versus lane bullies or solid sustain champs who can force trades to oom you.
It's also worth noting that Zyra's support build is basically just a slightly modified mid build. It's not cheap. Every single one of your items (other than boots and/or Sightstone) costs more than 3000 gold.
LankPants2 votesSorry, but I have to completely disagree with almost everything you say here. The damage gap between Zyra and Lulu in support is just gargantuan. On average Zyra does almost 250% of a support Lulu's damage on top of having an overall safer poke range and better dps kit.
And that would be incredibly relevant if I was talking about the champs as supports, but I'm not. I also never claimed Zyra doesn't outdamage Lulu, she does, heavily. It just doesn't matter in the grand scheme as she has so much trouble surviving anything. She's number 36 in terms of deaths, most champs who are bellow her are risky assassins.
Similar champs die much less per game. If you look at the mid champs with the least deaths per game they tend to be utility heavy zone mages. Lulu also has the 3rd least deaths per game.
This is why I say she needs more safety. She just has no way to actually survive anything.
Vekkna1 votesI wouldn't argue if they made my Zyra less squishy.
My point is only that you said mid laners "should have a kit capable of putting forth a great deal of damage, whether AP or AD based, through the mid game and into the late game."
That's exactly what Zyra does. She's less survivable than other zone/control mages because she's doing 20-40% more damage during the game. She dies significantly more than 
but she's pretty on-par with 
and 
LankPants1 votesMy point is only that you said mid laners "should have a kit capable of putting forth a great deal of damage, whether AP or AD based, through the mid game and into the late game."
I never said that. Lulu doesn't output that much damage at all. She's a viable utility mid because of her survivability and utility.
but she's pretty on-par with
Just going to throw it out there, Brand's absolute garbage and honestly needs buffs more than Zyra. Don't use him as an ideal for anything ever.
The other 3 all have risky engage patterns, of course they die a lot. It's a lot more fair to compare Zyra to the likes of Aniva, Lux and Ori than champs who somewhat rely on an engage pattern to be successful.
She's less survivable than other zone/control mages because she's doing 20-40% more damage during the game.
Actually that's the burst VS sustain trade off. Sustain characters will almost always do more damage per game than burst as they tend to hit tanker targets. (which have more HP) Look at the top ten champs, they're almost all either poke based, sustain based or both.
Almost every other utility mage is burst based and get more value from bursting out squishies rather than trying to DPS down and kite out tanks like Zyra does.
Vekkna2 votesYou're right on the first quote. I accidentally quoted somebody who replied to you. OOPS! =P
I understand what you're saying, and what I'm saying is largely in response to your quote:
"But even with extra CC there's just no reason to pick her over Lulu. Sure she has better damage, but that damage is worthless because you lack a way to survive long enough to use it."
My entire argument is that the damage is not useless, especially not when it's a difference of 10-15k per game. Having a midlaner who can deal literally double the damage of an enemy mid is really, really significant.
You're right that Zyra is slow and squishy, obviously, but even still she is a top-five damage mid and a top-three damage support. When she does survive, her damage is just ridiculous.
Stats are fine, but in practice I notice it, especially with the juggernaut meta. My average damage with Zyra in my last 10 games (7 support and 3 mid) was 38k per game, over 50k one game, and over 60k in one game. Consistently I see my Zyra at the top of the damage for the game, sometimes 50-100% higher than the second highest. That's a huge deal.
Bursting squishies is all well and good, but when you're seeing some mix of 
in almost every game, suddenly Zyra has a really compelling place in the meta.
JudasLover1 votesIn fact, support Zyra on average out-damages 7/19 ADCs, every jungler, 18/49 mid laners, and 38/50 top laners. Zyra is top 5 for highest mid lane damage. Support Zyra even significantly out-damages mid and top Lulu.
That is true but so funny lmao can I get a link or something with proof so I can pass around and laugh? Did you do the calculations yourself or what?
Vekkna1 votesIt was just based off the numbers from champion.gg
That's plat+. I'm silver 3, where people don't take the plants seriously. So my Zyra damage numbers are usually pretty obscene. Feel free to cruise through my match history.
SpongebobIsLife5 voteshey CertainlyT! I saw a Zyra idea on a previous post that I feel would be extremely helpful for midlane zyra, without making supp zyra much stronger. Zyra's plants are way too squishy late game despite the fact that they are responsible for most of her damage, so someone had the idea to give her plants bonus health based off of zyra's ap! I think this is a good idea, what do you think?
PopCorn Chick3n2 votesWe're fixing bugs with her plant AI as well -- the kind that lead to plants idling enemies nearby or continuing to attacking a unit when she had basic attacked another.
The buff to Zyra's ult is to solidify her role as a potent counter-engage champion. If you dive into Zyra's team, you'd better be extremely fast acting or you're liable to be CC'd for 3.25 seconds. SmashGizmo's in charge of the change, but I think it matches her strategic identity well.
Thank you for the information. I have another question. Is Zyra still going to have some investigation for possible changes in this patch or this is it? Again, thank you for the information Riot CertainlyT.
DeadPuddle2 votesI'm really happy to hear you're taking a look at her plant AI but I have an question
Why are these changes only concerning zyra's plant's?? shouldn't Heimerdinger turret AI also be looked at and improved
and more importantly shaco's boxes and his ultimate clone desperately need these sort's of improvement. (His clone in paticular has a nasty habit of idling giving its identity away)
shirley any AI changes could be carried over to these other champions quite easily (sorry for calling you shirley :D)
Vekkna6 votesHeimer turret AI needs a nerf. "Set it and forget it" smart damage is bullshit. Those stupid turrets have infinite duration if he's in range and passively smart-target skillshots for 55% AP.
Shit's so unbelievably broken.
DeadPuddle1 votesDestroy them first then go after hiemer. easy kill
Vekkna1 votesYou say "destroy them first" like 3 turrets won't kill you before you can kill them.
DeadPuddle1 voteswhy would you fight all three turrets at the same time? angle yourself to fight them one at a time or hit them with ability's from afar. the point is diving into lava is a bad idea, diving into three enemy Heimer turrets is a bad idea.
heck letting hiemer setup his turrets for free is a bad idea. stop him before he starts
TotalJerk4 votesI'm sorry, but fuck Donger's turrets.
DeadPuddle1 votesI take it you've run into his control zone one to many times. you have to destroy the turrets first then go after hiemer
TotalJerk2 votesJust destroy the turrets bro, it's that easy!
Krys Star16 votesThe buff to Stranglethorn honestly gives more reasons to play her support more than mid... The change is nice, but they feel geared towards support role. Did Riot not see that everyone wants focus on staying viable mid, while being an optional support choice? :\
Chortle7 votes/agree
mid zyra is my bae
TotN Titan5 votesRiot doesn't care where you think she should be played. They've been pushing for her to play a support role and this is letting them solidify her in that capacity. Like Zilean. Like Morgana. Like Karma. Your "option" will be to play support or play a really weak solo laner.
For Carthage2 votesMorg's not a weak solo-laner. She just can't outduel people immediately like she used to.
Remlap12232 votesNo, Riot nerfed the shit out of her pool, which killed her solo lane.
TotN Titan2 votesThis is correct. By nerfing her pool, they gave her a lot less lane presence and focused her strengths back into Black Shield and Dark Binding.
manbearswine7 votesWell she lacked lane presence and the ability to deal with roam and mobility...so they buffed her ult knockup duration.
Basically "let's buff zyra's ult which is her largest aoe,this will increase her winrate nicely without actually making her much stronger at competitive/high elo play,this will make zyra better at lower elos who won't play her because pros don't play her either"
Bloody genius.
Chortle3 votesHer kit doesn't seem to work well against roam or mobility in its design. Her low MS punishes her for following roaming opponents in a lot of cases.
Unless her MS is increased a bit, I think making her better against roam/mobility would involve an overhaul of her kit that I'm not sure Riot is even currently considering.
manbearswine3 votesHer kit doesn't seem to work well against roam or mobility in its design. Her low MS punishes her for following roaming opponents in a lot of cases.
Unless her MS is increased a bit, I think making her better against roam/mobility would involve an overhaul of her kit that I'm not sure Riot is even currently considering.
Well there are a lot of different ways of "dealing" with roam,she doesn't have to follow up on it,for example:
If you give her better vision(easiest example,seeds last 1 minute and reveal a larger area),she can pressure towers more easily,letting her use w on tower same as azir can also help with that.
Buffing her snare will help her both with roaming and against roaming.
Buffing her early damage will give her an opportunity to pressure her opponent before he can roam.
So we buff her ult,which still leaves her in the spot where she is utterly helpless against an opponent who understands how she works,which is exactly why she is considered trash in high elo/competitive,and something this ult buff completely misses(she will still become stronger,but lower elos will be affected much more than higher ones).
It's amazing that they say they realize there's a discrepancy between how good she is considered in higher levels of play and her winrate,yet they make changes to only make that discrepancy worse.
Chortle6 votesPlant AI changes just added to the S@20 notes.
That's what I was looking for.
I can't complaining about a .5 second knock up increase then. Just icing on the cake after plant AI update
Slight MS increase would've been welcomed ;]
Hupsis2 votesThey ain't gonna increase her movement speed especially now that they increased her ult knock up duration. She has 325 movement speed like most other zoning mages and for a good reason.
VDc0zCqe0w2 votesThey ain't gonna increase her movement speed especially now that they increased her ult knock up duration. She has 325 movement speed like most other zoning mages and for a good reason.
"""Most""" other zoning mages
Anivia, and that's it LOL
Azir too next patch
Hupsis2 votesZyra Azir Anivia Kog'maw Orianna Ziggs
VDc0zCqe0w2 votesZyra Azir Anivia Kog'maw Orianna Ziggs
all those guys have speed ups/dashes/escapes/shields except Kog wich i honestly don't know why did you list him since he's not a control mage at all
Hupsis2 votesAnd Zyra's aoe cc which can last up to 3.25 seconds after the upcoming patch means nothing? (+also a slowing plant)
Nobody on that list is able to even keep one enemy in place for that long.
She has plenty of tools to compensate for the low movement speed she has.
VDc0zCqe0w1 votesAnd Zyra's aoe cc which can last up to 3.25 seconds after the upcoming patch means nothing? (+also a slowing plant)
Nobody on that list is able to even keep one enemy in place for that long.
She has plenty of tools to compensate for the low movement speed she has.
i am strictly talking about lane phase (pre-6 in particular)
pre-6 you ain't got 3.25 seconds CC, you got 0.75
having low MS, low base stats, low base CC and no defensive utilities is bad for midlane, it's the main reason why you see Cass mid and not Zyra, Zyra is helpless against a gank
Vekkna2 votesZyra does better in mid than Cass, fyi.
You don't see Zyra mid very often because she's hard to play. She doesn't have a button to push that instantly negates the consequence of getting caught out or picked off, unlike Fizz, Ahri, Ekko, Zed, Talon, Ezreal, Liss, etc. Other popular immobile mages can shield and/or speed boost (Ori, Lux, etc).
What Zyra has that they don't have is the combination of vision, zone control, and persistent sustained damage that synergizes ridiculously well with items.
I'm talking about Liandry's, obviously. If you E > W somebody with just Liandry's, you're getting a guaranteed 3-second burn for 12%, usually 4-5 seconds of burn at 4% per second, and longer if they try to kill the plant.
Once you get Rylai's, you can just kite enemies down lane and drop plants along the way. By the time they even get to siege, you've already worn them down by a significant amount. Now they have to deal with you as one of the best anti-dive mages in the game.
Oerba No Naja3 voteszyra obviously needs more than that , i guess they will buff her more lets see the next pbe uptadtes bring back zyra mid pls !
