Is Fiora OP?

Bíbs·Apr 13, 2017·35 votes·10,955 views

I don't really have any evidence to say whether Fiora is OP or not, or at least close to it, because I'm in low elo. All I have to say is every time I see her, she'll get fed at some point in the game once she gets 2 or 3 items. I ban her 70% of the time. It was pretty easy to get into her, but, again, I'm in low elo, anything can happen. I'd like to know your opinions about her, know if I should be banning her as much as I do or find a counter champ or item.

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

126 Comments

MissingKayoApr 13, 201721 votes

She's the strongest toplaner in SoloQ because she's an extremely good 1v1 duelist and splitpusher and requires coordination to take down. However, she is still balanced and requires no nerfs really.

If anything, some of the other toplaners who are just pitifully poor right now need some adjustments/buffs.

EternalShockApr 13, 20178 votes

this is the same guy who complains about yasuo being "busted" but says fiora is balanced.

god fucking bless the boards.

MissingKayoApr 13, 201714 votes

lmao

Nice job reading there. I was talking about how he scales too early when he's supposedly a lategame champion, yet still has quite a strong early. You should learn what quotation marks are used for.

EternalShockApr 13, 20174 votes

renekton?

fiora?

hello?

MissingKayoApr 13, 20178 votes

Okay, you listed off two champion names. What's that supposed to mean? You didn't say anything else besides just a "hello?"

EternalShockApr 13, 20173 votes

fiora does just as much as yasuo except shes 2x stronger but because you find her "balanced" then that ignores the logic u seem to think is correct.

KnoyleApr 14, 201711 votes

except she is not 2x stronger and actually has to hit vitals to really have good trades.

AirKingNeoApr 14, 20174 votes

Fiora happens to be extremely good early game compared to what other late game champions are.

Also Fiora doesn't take team coordination to play, or any amount more than the typical top laner.

AmazoXApr 14, 20175 votes

You find Yasuo early Overpowered when you compare her to Fiora and called her Balanced?

In what aspect is Yasuo so much ''Overpowered'' and Fiora isn't?

He has no MR scaling next to only other Melee character in the game Kassadin. His base stats are laughable, The only good thing in his base stats is his MS that's all.

Please Kayo, Explain to me, Show me your point of view, Prove it to me. Let's discuss about this.

Fiora is the strongest top laner atm in SoloQ while Yasuo is garbage tier even though his supposedly ''OP''

yoshi2790Apr 14, 20173 votes

Yasuo is a bad champion design, you CAN'T balance him.

Double crit chance, wall that blocks almost everything in the game, free shield, dash on every enemy unit, 2x AoE knock up, ... Fun fact: If Yasuo ults someone in their tower range his ult will automatically attempt to position him out of tower range if possible. His W isn't even hard to use, unlike Fiora's it requires almost no skill. For Fiora to use her ultimate properly she needs to proc 4 vitals or kill her target, you need some skill to proc 4 vitals, Yasuo just needs a knock up.

Are you really thinking anything that Fiora has beats that? No, nothing Fiora has beats what Yasuo has.

Yasuo is broken, bad game design.

AmazoXApr 14, 20172 votes

Every champion becomes a bad design now when they are not in that perfect sweet spot? Is this what the community has come into?

Alright, All I have read is the PROS of Yasuo. It is very easy to list all the PROS of a champion OR rather just the KIT of the champion, Thank you for listing his kit. (Where did that 2x AoE knock up come from?)

You need some skill to properly use her ult

The same can be said about Yasuo, You dodge the tornado and his dash has a fixed distance.

//When you are so biased that you won't even say a thing about how Fiora has better Base stats and everything Yasuo has except a knock up which is instead of having a cc, She has a riposte that literally turns any cc against the enemy & % HP True damage that cannot be countered by anything//

What's funny is that next to no one realizes his Double crit chance passive is what balances him.

Let me copy you now and tell you a

FUN FACT (Kappa) :

Steel Tempest has a hidden crit penalty that reduces all crits by a further 15% from the normal 10% penalty, Which means Steel Tempest only hit for 75% of the usual damage, and only crits on the AD portion (The bonus damage is added on unchanged regardless of whether it crit or not) The 10% of the reduced critical damage is applied to his AA.
Steel Tempest deals the on-hit and crit to the first enemy hit. If you have minions on the way the on-hit from BOTRK would hit the minions and not the champions, Thus reducing the damage when comparing to BOTRK, Same for Triforce/Sheen Proc along with FM.

Let me do the same thing with Aatrox and list his KIT -_- and call it ''Bad Design'' and say his OVER POWERED, WHEN HIS garbage tier right now.

Aatrox has a free GA in his passive along with 25% increased AD & 20% / 30% / 40% / 50% bonus attack speed, The healing component is also affected by Spirit Visage. Aatrox has a knock up with 110% AD scaling along with 120 damage. Aatrox has free Life steal along with another damaging built in one slot of an ability. Aatrox throws a projectile called blades of torment so he can trade with ease. Aatrox can go into massacre mode dealing 200 / 300 / 400 damage along with 100% AP scaling to all the enemies nearby him & GAINS 40% / 50% / 60% Attack Speed.

Okay, Kit looks OP on PAPER but it's garbage in-game.

Is this what you call a discussion? HURR DURR listing a champion's kit but then call it bad design without giving insight and showing your point of view? Come on.

yoshi2790Apr 14, 20173 votes

The thing is, Aatrox is weak. Yasuo isn't.

And you were saying Yasuo isn't strong because he doesn't have any mr scaling unlike other melee characters. much discussion, I was mocking YOU.

AmazoXApr 14, 20172 votes

Yasuo and Aatrox are both garbage tier right now but without a doubt Yasuo > Aatrox but they are both garbage in High ELO.

Yoshi you make me laugh, I was replying to Kayo to his statement about how Yasuo is too good in early-game, it's why I listed that he has No MR Scaling and his base HP is 518 at early game.

It's also why I asked to have a proper discussion like gentlemen

I never said Yasuo isn't strong because he doesn't have MR scaling, You made that up, I NEVER said that.

This is what Kayo said.

I was talking about how he scales too early when he's supposedly a lategame champion, yet still has quite a strong early.

This is what I replied with about how isn't much strong early.

He has no MR scaling next to only other Melee character in the game Kassadin. His base stats are laughable, The only good thing in his base stats is his MS that's all.

and this is me asking to have a proper discussion so I could understand and discuss about our points of view

Please Kayo, Explain to me, Show me your point of view, Prove it to me. Let's discuss about this.

Those quotes came from the comments right above your first comment, So look up and read carefully and don't make things up out of your a-s-s.

P.S: That 2x AoE Knock-up is another thing you pulled out of your a-s-s.

yoshi2790Apr 14, 20172 votes

{quoted}

P.S: That 2x AoE Knock-up is another thing you pulled out of your a-s-s.

3rd Q and Ultimate?

They are both AoE Knock ups. And saying a-s-s won't make your posts stronger.

AmazoXApr 14, 20171 votes

Wrong, His ultimate isn't a knock up, It's suspension in air, Hence why cleanse cannot work against it but QSS can.

And you think making things up and accusing me of saying things I didn't say is gonna make your comment any better? I pity you.

What's even more funny that I wanted a discussion with Kayo but anyone is welcome to discuss this topic, All you did was list his kit and call it OP, I showed you an example how that method is flawed & then you try to accuse of things I didn't say, Is this how you discuss?

yoshi2790Apr 14, 20172 votes

You said a-s-s How did I make that up? How did I accuse you of anything else?

What are you even saying?

AND SORRY, I THOUGHT IT WAS CONSIDERED A KNOCK UP. SORRY I THOUGHT SOMETHING THAT WAS WRONG, I AM STILL LEARNING. ffs

You're freaking out against me and making all this drama, why? I was mocking the comment when I listed those things, which I said. Stop being so triggered over a post. Like for real, chil.

Is that how you discuss?

Because right now you're making it seem like I am a child and you are above all. Which you're not. I never accused you of anything. If so, I'd like you to quote it so I understand it better.

AmazoXApr 14, 20171 votes

My point was that my comment was completely relevant to Kayo's Early game Yasuo talk, So you just don't admit you are wrong and say ''I was mocking you?''

Are you high? Read again. Holy.

yoshi2790Apr 14, 20171 votes

Yes, indeed. Holy.

Twisted DreamingSep 11, 20181 votes

What people need to realise is while yasuo, yes, is strong, hes far from an easy champion. I enjoy silver players arguing over why hes busted, but let me ask you, isnt any champion busted if you know how to play them. Yasuo himself is a broken champion, but hes one of the highest skill ceiling champions in the game

THE RlVER KlNGApr 14, 20179 votes

I love how you describe Fiora as the best at everything

But then says she needs no nerfs

Fiora and Renekton are legitimately busted rn lmao

Cryo00Apr 14, 20176 votes

I still think % max HP true damage is kinda busted though, cause there is no way you can build against it.

ElikainApr 14, 20174 votes

And she needs that in order to fight as a top laner, considering that her opponents are Juggernauts and Tanks. Percent max HP damage is good for her because she can't really blow up squishies with it as it scales with their own HP pools. If Fiora dealt no damage outside of her passive, if her Vitals spawned regularly in both cases, she would need the same amount of time to kill a 10k HP tank as well as 1k HP squishy.

If she didn't have this, she would need a lot bigger damage output in order to play top lane and that would translate almost into an Assassin for squishies, thanks to her mobility and W. Just look at her scaling on her passive - 2% max HP + 4.5% for 100 bonus AD. Bonus AD is key here, since she needs a lot of damage in her build to start chunking people from her passive and Juggernaut items don't offer a lot of AD. I think Ravenous Hydra is the only thing you need to worry about as a biggest source of her damage.

I've done some testing in Practice Mode and by building all the biggest AD items on her, i was able to achieve about 20% true damage per vital proc BUT with 5 Hydra's, Infinity Edge and an Elixir of Wrath. That build isn't at all viable in actual games for obvious reasons and because it makes her super squishy. As much she can blow you up, you could blow her up the same without letting her to get a single AA off.

Her passive heal is a flat amount while her ult heal scales off her bonus AD again. And the heal you get requires all 4 Vitals destroyed or target dying with at least one Vital destroyed which also ties into Fiora's skill at being able to proc all of them. Her ult doesn't really kill you. She mainly uses it to soften you up for a kill.

MissingKayoApr 14, 20172 votes

On the other hand, she can't just unload her combo easily to nuke anyone. She has lower flat damage numbers than others because she has % max health true in return. For her to kill anyone, she has to successfully duel them.

The only instance she'd easily kill someone is for example a full item lategame Fiora versus an ADC. But the thing is, they'd be with their team. So she would have to outplay the rest of the ADC's team and outduel the ADC's Bloodthirster's massive lifesteal to kill them still.

And she still generally needs to proc passive for most part, instead of just hitting them wherever.

SugeMinPikkSep 11, 20181 votes

Jax is better because he's less mechanically intensive, just as good (if not better) at dueling and 2v1ing, and pushes faster

GULAG 4 UApr 14, 20179 votes

According to hashinshin, yes

GayFluffyUnicornApr 14, 20171 votes

Whenever i read a post about fioras state of balance i will quote hash: Why is this champ unbanned. WHAT IS GOD. Besides people can trashtalk hash as much as they want but when it comes to balance he's a frickin god. Just read up his change proposals to maw and steraks and some other items. Riot took his suggestions over nearly 1-1. Or read up his old discussion with ghostcrawler about melee vs range.

Last but not least, basically everyone in dia+ and upwards soloQ finds fiora to be bullshit.

GULAG 4 UApr 14, 20178 votes

Not my opinion, but the scenario in which I was pointing as was one game where hashinshin was playing aatrox and did

Levels Q, and jumps onto her level 1 with tp in the backline of ranged minions
Doesn't flash towards tower but river
Doesn't protect against fiora's vitals
Doesn't pop pot during duel
Could have flashed fiora's Q so she would have had 0 damaging skills but didn't

I do think hashinshin is pretty fucking good at balancing, but seriously, that Aatrox gameplay was bronze-silver tier.

Sun Wu RyuumokuApr 14, 20171 votes

agree with all... Aatrox is a good pick atm btw

GULAG 4 UApr 14, 20172 votes

Depends heavily on the matchup IMO. Good matchups= Ez firstbloods and freelo, get harder shit and you want to kermit sudoku.

EternalShockApr 13, 20175 votes

fiora is a very stupid top laner.

her lategame is busted beyond belief.

thankfully i main riven and its a skill matchup.

one annoying thing however is her rng procs on passive.

shit is so stupid when it stops u from csing for 6 seconds.

GayFluffyUnicornApr 14, 201727 votes

Every matchup is a skill matchup for fiora. Like seriously.

AnidanApr 14, 201718 votes

Wasn't that actually one of her design intents?

MissingKayoApr 14, 201714 votes

Yes, that's the whole point. xd

Gregor GysiApr 14, 20172 votes

Well, let's be honest, most tanks just lose against Fiora by default.

Lady HammerlockApr 14, 20173 votes

{quoted}

fiora is a very stupid top laner.

her lategame is busted beyond belief.

thankfully i main riven and its a skill matchup.

one annoying thing however is her rng procs on passive.

shit is so stupid when it stops u from csing for 6 seconds.

It's pseudo-RNG to be precise, there's actually a precise pattern to how her vitals spawn

BLACK REALM GODApr 15, 20171 votes

it looks like they spawn based on where fiora is standing. they spawn when you enter a certain range and then if you leave that range it despawns and you can keep resetting them that way. pretty sure it has to do with where she approaches her enemy from.

VectrosApr 14, 20174 votes

My only complaint is her ult. True damage that is a % of your total HP. Literally no way to counter build this-all you can do is run, or if you have your team with you, burst her down.

ElikainApr 14, 20172 votes

Yea, you can counterbuild true damage with pure HP. If your issue is that you have no way of countering that as a squishy, the nature of % max HP damage is that it scales with individuals' HP pools. Meaning that if she's doing 5% per Vital on 10k HP tank, she would do 500 damage while if she's attacking a 1k HP target, she would do 75 damage.

That's more than fair. And the fact that her ult is literally just a debuff, not an actual damaging skill and she is exclusively a 1v1 champion or a splitpusher, she can't just run into your team, killing you and then starting to wipe the floor with everyone else. Her W immunity isn't nearly long enough for her to have so much protection.

VectrosApr 14, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Yea, you can counterbuild true damage with pure HP. If your issue is that you have no way of countering that as a squishy, the nature of % max HP damage is that it scales with individuals' HP pools. Meaning that if she's doing 5% per Vital on 10k HP tank, she would do 500 damage while if she's attacking a 1k HP target, she would do 75 damage.

That's more than fair. And the fact that her ult is literally just a debuff, not an actual damaging skill and she is exclusively a 1v1 champion or a splitpusher, she can't just run into your team, killing you and then starting to wipe the floor with everyone else. Her W immunity isn't nearly long enough for her to have so much protection.

I would agree with your first sentence if that was all it is. Olaf is an example of this; I can build lots of HP to more or less counter it, and I'm fine with this.

What I am NOT fine with is Fiora ult, and Vayne's W. How is it more than fair for her to do a **** ton more damage to someone who is BUILDING TO SURVIVE? That's literally why I'm building armor/MR, so I can go in first and initiate. But she complete counteracts any sort of tankiness I build-it doesn't matter what I have-Alistars damage reduction, armor, health...it's all a moot point against a Fiora ult. My only option is to literally run the **** away. I mean, at least other split pushers have something I can build up-Tryndamre is all AD, so if I build up armor...I'll probably still die really fast, truth be told, but I CAN effectively counter build and survive longer.

And I don't have a problem with her being a duelist...that being said, there are plenty of effective duelists who do NOT make use of % total hp true damage to be useful. I fail to see how you have any logic here.

{quoted}

That means you aren't supposed to counterbuild it, but play around it.

So why am I not allowed to counter build it? There are only 2 abilities in the entire game that can't really be counter built, this is one of them. Play around it? You mean run the **** away, right? She has some pretty insane mobility in case you didn't know, and most tanks and bruisers simply don't have that kind of mobility to "play around it", other than run as soon as she ults them and hope they can get away. There might be 1 or 2 exceptions, but this is how it is for most. Either that, or hope she ults at a stupid time and your team can jump on her....but that's not really playing around it, that's her making a mistake. So I ask again, how do you play around it, when she's going to be faster than you and more mobile than you? This makes sense for a slower champion like Darius or Garen-you can play around those 2 quite a bit since they don't have a reliable gap closer, but Fiora?

But let's go ahead and say it's "fair" to play around it. Why, again, do we have to make it so I can't counterbuild it? There's only 1 other ability that does the same thing, which is also an unfair ability if you ask me. Like, that's one of the big points of a tank-build yourself up so you can be the first one in without too much to worry about. Not saying they should be immortal, but they SHOULD be able to build to go in first. You can't do this against Fiora.

{quoted}

The counter is not getting all the vitals hit. Her balance is that it's a skill match between her and her opponents.

Reading comprehension fail. I said counter BUILD, which is different from "there's no counter". Basically, when she ults you (since this is the point I raised, not just her passive), your only real option as a frontline is to run away. Most frontliners don't have as much mobility as her though, so she's bound to get at least 2 procs off. She's built to catch you.

I'm tired of repeating myself, so just read the past few paragraphs of this post. Also, while I'm ok with certain match ups being skill match ups-99% of the time, you CAN counter build to help win these situations, something I'm fond of doing since I'm usually the teams only frontline. Fiora doesn't allow for this with her ult. Why is this ok?

ElikainApr 14, 20173 votes

And I don't have a problem with her being a duelist...that being said, there are plenty of effective duelists who do NOT make use of % total hp true damage to be useful. I fail to see how you have any logic here.

The reason Fiora has % max HP damage is because she is a top laner that has to be able to lane against Juggernauts and Tanks. If she didn't have this, her actual flat/scaling damage had to be higher or incorporate some other armor busting mechanics, which would translate into pure brute force when she would face off against a squishy champion.

Considering that Fiora's ult is a debuff, yes, you run away just like you would with Zed's ult. Prevent her from doing damage or don't allow her to proc more Vitals than she gets. That's what everyone else does. Her ult is far cry from sure damage, FIORA literally has to do the work in order to score SOME damage. She has to play around her Vitals and you're also given the same chance and the same amount of time to respond.

She has her own minigame and you know exactly how she has to play it. And you make it hard for her. That's what proper counterplay is. That's what skill matchup means.

VectrosApr 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

The reason Fiora has % max HP damage is because she is a top laner that has to be able to lane against Juggernauts and Tanks. If she didn't have this, her actual flat/scaling damage had to be higher or incorporate some other armor busting mechanics, which would translate into pure brute force when she would face off against a squishy champion.

Considering that Fiora's ult is a debuff, yes, you run away just like you would with Zed's ult. Prevent her from doing damage or don't allow her to proc more Vitals than she gets. That's what everyone else does. Her ult is far cry from sure damage, FIORA literally has to do the work in order to score SOME damage. She has to play around her Vitals and you're also given the same chance and the same amount of time to respond.

She has her own minigame and you know exactly how she has to play it. And you make it hard for her. That's what proper counterplay is. That's what skill matchup means.

For your first paragraph:I literally addressed this in my paragraph to you, and you ignored it.

Second paragraph: Except I don't run away from a Zed ult, I stand there and take it, because I can built resistance to it, and health, both of which act as a counter quite well. Prevent her from doing damage/don't allow her to proc vitals...that's why I'm running, though as I said previously, she has very strong mobility, so for a lot of champions-particularly the types her ult is best suited for, the tanks and fighters-they CAN'T get away very well.

Yes, I understand it isn't point and click damage. I have had instances where a (bad) Fiora used her ult at a bad time and didn't even get 1 proc off, completely wasting it. That being said, it's not the hardest ult in the game to used, there's probably dozens that are more difficult to consistently make use of. I'm also going to point out, it's not so much "playing around" the ult as "run the **** away" because if you try to stay anywhere near her, she WILL get those procs.

I'm going to say it one more time. Simply running away because that is literally all you can do about it really isn't counter play. Counterplay would, as an example, be using minions to block a skillshot, or using a spell shield to block a Morgana Q. You're countering their kit. In the case of a Fiora ult, you're not countering it, you're running because you fear for your life, and that's all you can do about it.

{quoted}

tl;dr : She does more damage if you build more health, but that doesn't matter. It's still all relative. So it's the exact same percent. Also, 95% or more of her damage in a game is physical flat. Armor and health still vastly reduces her damage.

It does matter, since...you know what, I'm going to stop repeating myself, you can go read my last post if you have any interest in debating this. For your last two sentences, I have two things to say. First, I'm not really concerned with the rest of her kit's damage-I stated this in my very first post. I'm concerned with the ultimate. It gives 4.5%/100 bonus AD+2% of your total HP in true damage. Just using Probuilds to see her most commonly built items-based off of those alone, not accounting for elixers, runes, or masteries, I can expect her to have a little over 200 AD. Meaning each hit is doing 11% of my health in true damage. If she gets all 4 strikes, that's damn near half my health in true damage. Literally half of my survivability is completely void, regardless of what I do. Yes, I can build armor for the rest of her kit, which works out ok, but when it comes to her ult there isn't anything I can do about it item wise, and that's bull****.

This doesn't even account for the possibility of her first proccing the regular passive, THEN ulting you, meaning 55% of your HP is gone with no way of reducing that damage. For a tank with 4k HP, that's over 2k damage that cannot be reduced by any means. Whenever there's an enemy Fiora and I die in a team fight to see what I should build, and I see...Fiora true damage accounting for the highest amount by a considerable margin, that's basically a **** you to tanks and bruisers.

ElikainApr 15, 20171 votes

For your first paragraph:I literally addressed this in my paragraph to you, and you ignored it.

Sorry. You tried to answer two people at once from a single comment and i found it confusing so i must have glossed over some of the parts meant for me.

I'm concerned with the ultimate. It gives 4.5%/100 bonus AD+2% of your total HP in true damage.

Don't really need Probuilds for that one. I am a Fiora player (average one) and i have done the testing in Practice Tool with the most common of her purchases. Here are the values (of course, IE can be interchangeable with Death's Dance or some other big AD purchase you need for the occasion):

Duelist's Dance: http://i.imgur.com/89LP0Iw.png[/img]

Grand Challenge: http://i.imgur.com/TUPeM39.png[/img]

That's only after 5 items (Hydra + BC as core) and then one big damage item on top of that. Almost a full build. Every champion at this point should be strong enough to perform exactly how they are supposed to. That's late game for Fiora and everyone else. If you're supposed to be tanky as hell at this point into the game, she should equally be strong to take you down as a top laner.

#Her ult is meant to soften up targets. In reality, Fiora should be dealing anywhere from ~40% - 50% potential damage from her ult (late game). That's ~10% - 12.5% from her passive alone. Theoretically (i've tested it), Fiora can deal in near best/best case scenario 95 - 105% max HP true damage from her ult and 23.76% - 26.34% max HP in true damage per Vital proc. The theoretical scenario is of course, not viable in any games.

Potential being the key word here. You can't use her ult numbers as absolute values because they vary greatly depending on how skillful Fiora players are and do her opponents know how to properly counter her or not. If you're letting her proc Vitals on you, you deserve to get smashed. And you have to recognize that Fiora's ult is her high point, just as Camille's is for her. Otherwise, you can also argue that Camille is a problem because her ult doesn't allow you to leave its range no matter what so someone's death in it during the full duration is guaranteed.

Worst case scenario for Fiora is that she can't proc a single Vital, the best case scenario is all 4. Her average is around 2. 3rd and 4th Vital is where things get interesting as both sides (Fiora and her opponent) are fighting for dominance. As for her passive, that's why it never spawns in the same direction and why it has a spawn time. So that both parties involved can work around the advantage/disadvantage.

What i'm saying is that in my opinion, Fiora is a pretty well balanced champion as she currently stands. Simply because Riot already curb-stomped her Juggernaut builds (rounding up her weaknesses) and made her scale from bonus damage, where Juggernaut items have considerably less of it (but more HP). From a point of your frustration about Fiora's damage, we've identified that as a scaling champion, Fiora should be strong in the late game but she still isn't strong enough to lay waste to entire teams. She's mostly a superb 1v1 champion and a splitpusher. She isn't a good teamfighter. We've also established that she doesn't deal burst damage unexpectedly, if she marks you, you know from which directions it's going to come from. You should act appropriately during her high points (ult availability).

As a skill reliant champion, she has some good matchups like Riven, Irelia, Jax, Camille. Tryndamere straight guts her because her true damage doesn't even matter when he can't die from his ult.

VectrosApr 15, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Sorry. You tried to answer two people at once from a single comment and i found it confusing so i must have glossed over some of the parts meant for me.

Don't really need Probuilds for that one. I am a Fiora player (average one) and i have done the testing in Practice Tool with the most common of her purchases. Here are the values (of course, IE can be interchangeable with Death's Dance or some other big AD purchase you need for the occasion):

Duelist's Dance: http://i.imgur.com/89LP0Iw.png[/img]

Grand Challenge: http://i.imgur.com/TUPeM39.png[/img]

That's only after 5 items (Hydra + BC as core) and then one big damage item on top of that. Almost a full build. Every champion at this point should be strong enough to perform exactly how they are supposed to. That's late game for Fiora and everyone else. If you're supposed to be tanky as hell at this point into the game, she should equally be strong to take you down as a top laner.

Right, and a tank is meant to...tank. Not have half of their defenses completely negated off of one ability, with no way to reduce/stop it, other than run away.

#Her ult is meant to soften up targets. In reality, Fiora should be dealing anywhere from ~40% - 50% potential damage from her ult (late game). That's ~10% - 12.5% from her passive alone. Theoretically (i've tested it), Fiora can deal in near best/best case scenario 95 - 105% max HP true damage from her ult and 23.76% - 26.34% max HP in true damage per Vital proc. The theoretical scenario is of course, not viable in any games.

Disagree, and there are three reasons:

1)Tanks typically start the fights, which often means using your gap closer/escape, such as Shen's taunt, to go in. Your mobility is now blown to start a fight at an opportune time for your team. This leaves you wide open to her. 2)Fiora is quite mobile. I'm not saying she's 100% the MOST mobile in the game, but it's pretty damned good. Particularly given that Juggernauts tend to be immobile, and tanks get limited mobility-usually enough to get them in but not out, it makes it much easier than you're trying to make it out to be to get your procs off. Now I'm not saying she'll get every proc every time, but even taking 20% of my hp in true damage is ridiculous. Think about it: If I start a fight as the tank properly and take fire from 3+ sources, Fiora being one of them, I'll check my death recap (assuming I'm not full build) to see what I should be building. Lo and behold, the largest source of damage is true damage from Fiora. can you not see the frustration of this?! 3)Teamfights can get messy sometimes, to the point where you lose track of who is where, or even where you are. In all this chaos a Fiora can slip in and start ulting you before you even realize what's going on. Again this may not lead to 4 procs, but even 2 procs is enough to shred a large portion of my health, and there's nothing build wise I can do about it. Given that this game allows for countering building in some fashion against everything else in the damned game (even Vayne now that I think about it-Randuins/Frozen will reduce attack speed and thus slightly reduce her true damage output in a sense), except this ability. Why does it get to be special?

Potential being the key word here. You can't use her ult numbers as absolute values because they vary greatly depending on how skillful Fiora players are and do her opponents know how to properly counter her or not.

I agree you shouldn't always look at potential, but even with only 1/2 the ult the numbers are still scary.

If you're letting her proc Vitals on you, you deserve to get smashed. And you have to recognize that Fiora's ult is her high point, just as Camille's is for her. Otherwise, you can also argue that Camille is a problem because her ult doesn't allow you to leave its range no matter what so someone's death in it during the full duration is guaranteed.

Covered the first sentence previously. As for the rest, you're wrong. Camille's ult DOES have counterplay; displacement. Or if you have something like hourglass to avoid damage. Does every champion have these capabilities? No, but there are champions who can counter it. Further, your team can assist you and knock her out of the zone, canceling the ult completely. This is the counterplay that Fiora doesn't have; aside from running away, there is absolutely nothing I can do about it.

Worst case scenario for Fiora is that she can't proc a single Vital, the best case scenario is all 4. Her average is around 2. 3rd and 4th Vital is where things get interesting as both sides (Fiora and her opponent) are fighting for dominance. As for her passive, that's why it never spawns in the same direction and why it has a spawn time. So that both parties involved can work around the advantage/disadvantage.

Yes, I understand why they made it this way, but doesn't have much relevance to the topic at hand.

What i'm saying is that in my opinion, Fiora is a pretty well balanced champion as she currently stands. Simply because Riot already curb-stomped her Juggernaut builds (rounding up her weaknesses) and made her scale from bonus damage, where Juggernaut items have considerably less of it (but more HP). From a point of your frustration about Fiora's damage, we've identified that as a scaling champion, Fiora should be strong in the late game but she still isn't strong enough to lay waste to entire teams. She's mostly a superb 1v1 champion and a splitpusher. She isn't a good teamfighter. We've also established that she doesn't deal burst damage unexpectedly, if she marks you, you know from which directions it's going to come from. You should act appropriately during her high points (ult availability).

As a skill reliant champion, she has some good matchups like Riven, Irelia, Jax, Camille. Tryndamere straight guts her because her true damage doesn't even matter when he can't die from his ult.

I would agree on everything of her being balanced outside the true damage. I am fine with her being strong late game. I said it in one of my previous posts-maybe it wasn't directed at you though, so I'll say it again.

Look at Tryndamere. You might argue he's even scarier than Fiora because of his invulnerability, and his auto attacks HURT. But the thing is, I can still counter build him. While truthfully most champions will have to straight up run away from a Tryndamere 1 vs 1, you can still build armor+ health to make yourself more survivable-deter him from focusing you in a fight. Fiora really doesn't have this, she obsoletes entire build lines with her ultimate. This is a problem, and I don't get how you don't see that.

I never said she shouldn't be good or effective; again, read my first posting. The only thing I'm against is % of max Hp true damage. Truth be told, the values themselves aren't too important. It could be as little as 10% of max HP and that's still be irritating, because there is nothing you can do about it with your build. THAT is the issue.

ElikainApr 15, 20171 votes

Right, and a tank is meant to...tank. Not have half of their defenses completely negated off of one ability, with no way to reduce/stop it, other than run away.

You can't put your own role above everyone else's. You can't say "i'm a tank and i am supposed to tank everything". Some champions are good at tank busting. There are items that help with that as well. If you want to make this argument, then Fiora isn't anything special. Then very source of true damage (maybe even Kayle), tank busting item and champion ability should be put under the same scrutiny.

Fiora is simply good at 1v1s, regardless of who her opponent is. And there is variance in her opponents, Malphite is a really good counter to her. She can evade his ult but his slow (AS slow as well) really puts a dampener on her ability to deal damage only through her Vitals for a few seconds. Champions with multiple CCs can do her in as she can only choose to evade one.

Lo and behold, the largest source of damage is true damage from Fiora. can you not see the frustration of this?!

I can see that frustration. But Fiora's true damage is a part of her mini-game and it scales ridiculously light with bonus AD. So it's natural that her true damage is the bread and butter of her kit, especially when it's present throughout the entire game. But the damage stacks up, where in the late game she starts dealing more damage. Her early game really is won more by her physical damage. In fact, here's Fiora's champion.gg profile showing her damage composition:

71.65% physical damage 4.50% magic damage 23.85% true damage

Here are my statistics with Fiora from one ARAM game:

29980 physical damage - 67.59% 1988 magic damage - 4.48% 12384 true damage - 27.92% http://i.imgur.com/7SkZLpF.png[/img]

The numbers align. If i had a bigger sample size, i would be closer to the average numbers. So you see, Fiora's damage output is not majority in true damage, as i think you're trying to suggest. Building armor against Fiora still has a lot of value, it's not useless. Three fourths are physical damage (plus a tiny bit of magic damage) and only one fourth is true damage. Vayne has a similar damage composition graph but Vayne is arguably dealing that damage easier since she's ranged, has mobility and stealth. And no mini-game to play.

I don't know if you played Fiora or not but i encourage you to do so. It would mean a lot to you if you knew the other side of the argument, rather than simply thinking Fiora's true damage is easy to deal and acquire. As a beginner myself, Fiora was arguably the hardest champion for me to get accustomed to as her mini-game is literally her damage output and the path to success. And i've also learned from my mistakes trying to be the initiator for teamfights, trying to get my heal zone off. That simply never happened like i wanted to, because my W or my "tankiness" was ever a match for the entire team trying to take me down. I was never able to proc more then 1 or 2 Vitals and at that point, it never mattered as my team was forced to 4v5.

The only thing I'm against is % of max Hp true damage. It could be as little as 10% of max HP and that's still be irritating, because there is nothing you can do about it with your build. THAT is the issue.

Just remember that Vel'Koz prior to his mage update had the same issue with his passive. It only scaled off his level, leading to situations where flat value was being negligible in long games. Now it scales with level + has an AP ratio. The thing about flat values is that they don't scale. You can't make it fair for both ends of the spectrum and that's where % max HP damage comes in.

Regardless of respective HP pools of tanks or squishies, % HP damage is relative. That's what makes it fair. But even if it does, it still doesn't mean every champion should switch to % HP damage. It should be only on kits that make sense and on Fiora's kit it does. We can agree to disagree on this one but it's really important to know how Fiora does what she does instead of believing she can conjure it out of thin air to get an unfair advantage over other champions. That's exactly what i thought of her and when i tried her, it was apparent that i didn't understand how she functioned.

VectrosApr 16, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You can't put your own role above everyone else's. You can't say "i'm a tank and i am supposed to tank everything". Some champions are good at tank busting. There are items that help with that as well. If you want to make this argument, then Fiora isn't anything special. Then very source of true damage (maybe even Kayle), tank busting item and champion ability should be put under the same scrutiny.

Ok I think you had a typo here, but what I think you're trying to say is: Fiora isn't special as a tank buster, there are items and other champions that I'd have to point a finger at as well, alongside other sources of true damage.

Like you really don't seem to understand my argument at all. I'm fine with having ways to bust a tank quickly. I'm ok with Blade of the Ruined king, etc. I don't want tanks (despite being one of my two roles I main) to be invulnerable. But I do think they should be able to do their job; start a fight without fear of just blowing up as soon as they start it, otherwise you'd be better off just taking Annie and comboing them to start the fight for much more damage.

The difference between Fiora and literally everything else you're mentioning-and this is a point I KNOW I've said at least once already-I can in one way or another counter build them. I can build armor for higher AD, or even % HP physical damage/magic damage. I can build health vs a straight true damage ability. Fiora breaks this rule, and that's my issue.

Fiora is simply good at 1v1s, regardless of who her opponent is. And there is variance in her opponents, Malphite is a really good counter to her. She can evade his ult but his slow (AS slow as well) really puts a dampener on her ability to deal damage only through her Vitals for a few seconds. Champions with multiple CCs can do her in as she can only choose to evade one.

So your first part I've already addressed, I'm not going to repeat myself anymore...the second part, you're basically saying "she's weak to CC". This isn't a counter; literally everyone not named Olaf is weak to CC. And he only gets immunity for a few seconds. This isn't an argument, it's no different from saying "just kill her".

I can see that frustration. But Fiora's true damage is a part of her mini-game and it scales ridiculously light with bonus AD. So it's natural that her true damage is the bread and butter of her kit, especially when it's present throughout the entire game. But the damage stacks up, where in the late game she starts dealing more damage. Her early game really is won more by her physical damage. In fact, here's Fiora's champion.gg profile showing her damage composition:

71.65% physical damage 4.50% magic damage 23.85% true damage

Here are my statistics with Fiora from one ARAM game:

29980 physical damage - 67.59% 1988 magic damage - 4.48% 12384 true damage - 27.92% http://i.imgur.com/7SkZLpF.png[/img]

The numbers align. If i had a bigger sample size, i would be closer to the average numbers. So you see, Fiora's damage output is not majority in true damage, as i think you're trying to suggest. Building armor against Fiora still has a lot of value, it's not useless. Three fourths are physical damage (plus a tiny bit of magic damage) and only one fourth is true damage. Vayne has a similar damage composition graph but Vayne is arguably dealing that damage easier since she's ranged, has mobility and stealth. And no mini-game to play.

...Ok I'll say this one more time, since you seem to keep missing it. I don't think Fiora as a whole is OP. Yes, I realize over the course of the game, most of her damage is physical. Obviously, given most of the true damage will come during the ultimate which has a hefty CD. I'll say it one last time: % of max HP true damage is bull****, because it breaks a tanks ability to counterbuild. I have no issues with the rest of her kit. Hell, I think she'd still be in a fine spot if they changed it to physical and upped the scaling a bit, because at the end of day I could build armor to reduce it. She'd still be a very tough duelist-as I've said previously, there are other viable duelists who do not rely on true damage, so you saying over and over again "she needs it cause she's a duelist" doesn't actually mean anything.

I don't know if you played Fiora or not but i encourage you to do so. It would mean a lot to you if you knew the other side of the argument, rather than simply thinking Fiora's true damage is easy to deal and acquire. As a beginner myself, Fiora was arguably the hardest champion for me to get accustomed to as her mini-game is literally her damage output and the path to success. And i've also learned from my mistakes trying to be the initiator for teamfights, trying to get my heal zone off. That simply never happened like i wanted to, because my W or my "tankiness" was ever a match for the entire team trying to take me down. I was never able to proc more then 1 or 2 Vitals and at that point, it never mattered as my team was forced to 4v5.

You just contradicted yourself. First you're saying it's only 25% of her damage, but now you're saying it IS LITERALLY HER DAMAGE OUTPUT.

I played old Fiora some, new fiora I wasn't such a fan of. I've played her maybe twice since rework. I tend to stay away from champions who's kits I consider toxic/unfair like this, otherwise I feel like a hypocrite. Now with that said, knowing I'm not bound to be a great Fiora myself...typically successful Fiora's I go against don't go for the teamfights, they just splitpush. No body can solo you (or rather very very few can), so they're forced to send 2 to deal with you...leaving your team in a 4 vs 3, favorable, meaning they should win that team fight. I know this won't always be possible, just saying, it doesn't sound like you're playing optimally there.

Just remember that Vel'Koz prior to his mage update had the same issue with his passive. It only scaled off his level, leading to situations where flat value was being negligible in long games. Now it scales with level + has an AP ratio. The thing about flat values is that they don't scale. You can't make it fair for both ends of the spectrum and that's where % max HP damage comes in.

Um...yes you can. Possible solutions: Make it physical damage, make it true damage but not % max hp-instead making it scale off of AD at a higher rate, there's probably 1-2 other ways you could do it. But go ahead and read what you wrote there. Velkoz's passive is fine, I don't complain about it-even though it can get pretty damn strong. Why? It's a flat amount+AP ratio, meaning if I build up health, it WILL help. Why can't we do something like this for Fiora? I am not saying to take away her dueling potential nor tank melting. Just make it so a tank can actually counterbuild. Just answer me this: Why does Fiora get to be a special snowflake?

Regardless of respective HP pools of tanks or squishies, % HP damage is relative.

That's what % HP means, yes.

That's what makes it fair.

How is that fair at all?

Character A: An ADC. Build no defensive items. 1800 hp, around 60-70 armor. Fiora's ult is worth 1k damage. Character B: A Tank. Built full defense. About 10k gold to build up 4k hp, 300+ armor.

Fiora does the same to both of them. Like, what? Where's the fairness? Do you even listen to yourself? This doesn't make sense.

Let's pretend we had an inverse. A new tank item is created by Riot, which makes it so regardless of a source of damage-be it true, magic, phsyical, auto attack, ability, you name it-all attacks are capped at 2% of his total health in damage. Suddenly your tank is just as effective at killing him as your DPS. is that fair? Because this is basically an inverse of the situation-regardless of how much damage you build, it's going to take you forever to kill this guy!

But even if it does, it still doesn't mean every champion should switch to % HP damage. It should be only on kits that make sense and on Fiora's kit it does.

Sorry, typo again? Even if it does what? I agree, not every champion should be % hp damage. I also agree it's fine on Fioras kit...when it's not true damage.

We can agree to disagree on this one but it's really important to know how Fiora does what she does instead of believing she can conjure it out of thin air to get an unfair advantage over other champions. That's exactly what i thought of her and when i tried her, it was apparent that i didn't understand how she functioned.

I do understand how she functions. As I said in my very first post, I don't think she's overall OP, it's just the true damage I want changed in one way or another. She can be the games greatest duelist, I don't really care-in fact, she probably should be, considering her title. Just give the tanks the capability of surviving a bit longer, to counter build her. That wouldn't make her weak. She'd still be perfectly capable of killing them fairly quickly-just they can extend the timeframe some.

ElikainApr 17, 20171 votes

I don't know what to tell you, dude. We can't agree on Fiora's "problem" in her kit. I honestly don't think her passive is too strong, especially when she is meant to duel anyone. The nature of her passive does suit her kit and i don't think it was a mistake nor that the value she gets is problematic.

Looking at her champion.gg and lolalytics page, i don't really see any issues with her true damage. It's in the values that it should be in, it definitely shouldn't be her majority. But her win rate does seem a bit high and her rank among champions is #10, with the average player with her being D2+.

Looking at the player experience distribution pie chart and graph, players from 1-100 games on her do have ~55% win rate. Whereas players from 1OO-200+ games, ~53% win rate. If anything, more experienced players should be having 55% win rate, not new players. This only means that something in her kit might be overtuned and i believe the breaking point is Fervor of Battle (that was buffed). Before that i don't remember seeing her all that often but she was still decent. Now she practically duels anyone into submission from her raw physical damage alone, true damage being additional damage she enjoys anyway. So, her early game is not that weak as it should be.

Being frustrated that she can duel anyone isn't, in my opinion, a valid complaint against Fiora. I don't really like playing against Zed in particular because as Marksman or a Support, you don't have protection options like Zhonya's. So he's a nightmare for me to deal with at any point into the game. But that doesn't mean he's a problematic champion if he has counterplay. And that means my team can't simply sleep and let him go for the backline. They need to know what to do when Zed engages first.

Just as fighting an Assassin 1v1 isn't a good idea, the same is true for Fiora. Grouping up is the best option in this case unless we're talking about Talon/Katarina. Because grouping up for an AoE champion is not a good idea.

VectrosApr 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I don't know what to tell you, dude. We can't agree on Fiora's "problem" in her kit. I honestly don't think her passive is too strong, especially when she is meant to duel anyone. The nature of her passive does suit her kit and i don't think it was a mistake nor that the value she gets is problematic.

Looking at her champion.gg and lolalytics page, i don't really see any issues with her true damage. It's in the values that it should be in, it definitely shouldn't be her majority. But her win rate does seem a bit high and her rank among champions is #10, with the average player with her being D2+.

Looking at the player experience distribution pie chart and graph, players from 1-100 games on her do have ~55% win rate. Whereas players from 1OO-200+ games, ~53% win rate. If anything, more experienced players should be having 55% win rate, not new players. This only means that something in her kit might be overtuned and i believe the breaking point is Fervor of Battle (that was buffed). Before that i don't remember seeing her all that often but she was still decent. Now she practically duels anyone into submission from her raw physical damage alone, true damage being additional damage she enjoys anyway. So, her early game is not that weak as it should be.

Being frustrated that she can duel anyone isn't, in my opinion, a valid complaint against Fiora. I don't really like playing against Zed in particular because as Marksman or a Support, you don't have protection options like Zhonya's. So he's a nightmare for me to deal with at any point into the game. But that doesn't mean he's a problematic champion if he has counterplay. And that means my team can't simply sleep and let him go for the backline. They need to know what to do when Zed engages first.

Just as fighting an Assassin 1v1 isn't a good idea, the same is true for Fiora. Grouping up is the best option in this case unless we're talking about Talon/Katarina. Because grouping up for an AoE champion is not a good idea.

Well, your win % indictates she is too strong. Which isn't what I was even saying to begin with. In fact you said a lot here that is really irrelevant. I never said I don't want her to be able to duel anybody-quite the opposite, I said since she's the Grand Duelist, she SHOULD be capable of dueling anybody, or just about anybody. None of that is an issue to me.

Back to my original statement since you seem to have forgotten: % max hp true damage allows for no counter building. This is the only ability in the game which can claim this-even Vayne's % HP true damage is somewhat reduced by attack speed slows, so frozen heart+Randuins can slow the incoming damage. AKA counter building. Fiora has no equivalent, breaking established rules that everyone else follows. I might find it a little more acceptable if either A) It only occurred on her ult, or B)It was only her passive and not her ult. It's overbearing when she gets it from both.

It's ok for her to do very high damage and duel anyone. It's not ok that there aren't any build options to counter it.

Also looking back at my posts, I can't help but noticed you ignored a lot of points I made-you never addressed them. I'd like to see those addressed before I make any more points, so I don't end up running in circles.

ElikainApr 17, 20171 votes

But there are options to countering Fiora... We've discussed this already. I've given you Fiora's damage composition graphs so you know that the majority of her damage (three quarters) is physical damage TO WHICH you can itemize against with armor, Ninja Tabi and HP that all armor items come bundled with already.

So no, you don't have to go out of your way to build pure 7000 HP in your builds, you do actually have counterbuild options against Fiora. Fiora's true damage via her Vitals is gated by their own spawn CD and the direction the Vitals spawn in. And her ult is also not a sure way of 4x Vital damage in a single instance of her ult.

I tried to move away from writing essays as those points (both yours and mine) started getting pretty long so i tried a different approach. I did try to address many of your points by simply conceding to Fiora's win rate being high for newer players, considering that she's a pretty tough champion to master. So i did acknowledge that her mastery curve isn't really relevant as her early game isn't that weak to begin with. I suspect this is due to Fervor of Battle being buffed. I simply do not recognize her passive being the issue in her strength. Her passive is supposed to be her strength and in terms of how strong she is, Irelia's damage graph is really close to hers. So if you have an issue with Fiora, Irelia should equally be a problem. We didn't discuss other champions except Fiora so i don't know your stance on others but Fiora certainly wouldn't be an outlier in the top lane.

GULAG 4 UApr 14, 20175 votes

That means you aren't supposed to counterbuild it, but play around it.