Can someone explain why jax counter strike blocks tf w/viktor q but not nidalee cougar q?

Saintshing·Dec 12, 2015·34 votes·5,049 views

http://oddshot.tv/shot/hashinshin-2015121213422244

So I just noticed counterstrike can't block nid q, which is another exception besides voli q and hecarim e. I remember a rioter said it doesn't block voli q and hec e because they are more like spells than auto attacks. OK I guess they have cc and bonus movespeed.

But how on earth is nidalee q more like spells than tf w and viktor q(both modify their autos to do magic damage like nid q and in addition have cc/utility). Also nid q applies full lifesteal unlike tf w and vik q. I don't get it. There is no consistency at all.

44 Comments

therealdragonDec 12, 20157 votes

Because vik q and tf w both replace their basic attacks. It's like any auto attack that gets modified. Like blitz e or darius w. All of these would get blocked because its their basic attack but modified.

Nidalee Q isn't an auto attack. Hence why it doesn't get blocked. Anything that involves an AA will get blocked. If you activate w and right click as tf, you throw your w. For that spell its your AA. Same with vik Q.

They're AA's. Nid's Q isn't.

JariDec 12, 201515 votes

Nid Q requires you to perform an AA to use it. It empowers your next auto attack to do more damage, which is still an auto attack. If I can dodge Nasus Q and TF's card, I should be able to dodge a Nid Q since it requires the same thing, pressing the ability and then basic attacking.

Heckin SupportDec 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Nid Q requires you to perform an AA to use it. It empowers your next auto attack to do more damage, which is still an auto attack. If I can dodge Nasus Q and TF's card, I should be able to dodge a Nid Q since it requires the same thing, pressing the ability and then basic attacking.

We heard your distress on this situation and we have fixed it. Now Jax's auto's no longer stop Nasus Q, Tf's card, or any aa modifier. You're welcome ~Riot

JariDec 12, 20151 votes

Sad part is knowing Riot they would do it since I've been seeing Jax complaints.

ScatterPoliceDec 13, 20151 votes

Nasus q goes through counter strike. Just the base dmg gets blocked. Not the stacked dmg though

JariDec 13, 20151 votes

But extending the list, there are even abilities that aren't auto attacks it can dodge (Such as Ezreal Q.)

Here's a video I found showing what does and doesn't work, made in March so champs after that won't count here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNlagyW8OMA

Sire HippingtonDec 12, 20153 votes

can't belive that this got upvoted besides beeing simply wrong. Nida needs to Activate Q, and then perform an AA, just like every other AA modifier, cause that'S exactly what nida's Q is( we're talking about cougar form, just in cases you didn't notice)

NegusInParisDec 12, 20151 votes

No problem, I downvoted it ;)

therealdragonDec 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3d8BLopw,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2015-12-12T20:09:10.940+0000)

can't belive that this got upvoted besides beeing simply wrong. Nida needs to Activate Q, and then perform an AA, just like every other AA modifier, cause that'S exactly what nida's Q is( we're talking about cougar form, just on cases you didn't notice)

lol whoops. Didn't realize that. Thought we were talking about human q.

I also took a look at the video this time and the reason your e didn't block it is because you didn't do it in time. There are some times when you'll do something so fast but it didn't go through cause of some reason. In the video, you never used your e till you were literally .2s away from being dead. You used your e at that time, but it didn't go through cause nothing-the animation-didn't play out cause you were already dead.

Nidalee's Q is already happening when your e is starting. That's why it didn't block. There wasn't enough time for you to block it. Had you started your e .5-1s earlier, you would have probably dodged it (but died to something else anyway).

However, if someone else can verify that an attacking Nidalee in cougar form using her Q on an jax already in his e doesn't get blocked, THEN there's a problem. But with the video itself, that isn't because it doesn't block. It's because you weren't quick enough (but this isn't your fault, stun op :/).

Sire HippingtonDec 12, 20153 votes

I'm not the OP, and even if i were, the vid shows hashinshin, a NA master/challenger player
He clearly got his E up while nida is mid air from her W, so befor her Q. Just pause the vid at ~9sec and move on pic by pick(slightly move the slider), and you will see that his e apears in his buffbar at the very start of her w-jump.

SaintshingDec 12, 20151 votes

on lol wiki, it says

Takedown-enhanced attacks will ignore Counterstrike dodge, but will be blocked if they are parried or blocked(by panthion passive) or if Nidalee is blinded.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Nidalee

In patch 5.22, they tried to fix this inconsistency issue by adding a bunch of abilities to the list of empowered auto attacks that can be blocked by jax e, panth passive and blind. Viktor q and tf w were on that list but nid q was not.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-522-notes#patch-systems

If anyone wants to test it, you can add me on NA.

SasogwaDec 12, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Because vik q and tf w both replace their basic attacks. It's like any auto attack that gets modified. Like blitz e or darius w. All of these would get blocked because its their basic attack but modified.

Nidalee Q isn't an auto attack. Hence why it doesn't get blocked. Anything that involves an AA will get blocked. If you activate w and right click as tf, you throw your w. For that spell its your AA. Same with vik Q.

They're AA's. Nid's Q isn't.

Takedown ACTIVE: Nidalee's ** next basic attack** gains range and is modified to deal magic damage, increased by 1.5% for every 1% of the target's missing health, for a maximum of 150% bonus damage.

next basic attack

Nid's Q cougar form is an autoattack.

BoulderoxDec 13, 20151 votes

Blocks the Aa the execute goes through... Simple

SaintshingDec 12, 20151 votes

Nid q applies on-hit, lifesteal and can crit. It can also be blocked by fiora w, pantheon passive and blind. Yeah, totally not an auto attack.

ScatterPoliceDec 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Anything that involves an AA will get blocked.

Nasus q goes through Jax counter strike. Only the base dmg gets blocked. But the stack dmg goes through. Food for thought.

MunchCrunchLunchDec 12, 20157 votes

there is no explanation for it. Jax E is supposed to "dodge" all basic attacks including empowered and on hit attacks. but the fact is. hes an old champ. and on hit effects go through except AD damage. it should be fixed and a lot of AA empowered and AA abilities go through it. which again. need to be fixed.

JbelsDec 12, 20155 votes

{quoted}

there is no explanation for it. Jax E is supposed to "dodge" all basic attacks including empowered and on hit attacks. but the fact is. hes an old champ. and on hit effects go through except AD damage. it should be fixed and a lot of AA empowered and AA abilities go through it. which again. need to be fixed.

They JUST did a pass on blinds and dodges to make sure ALL auto-attacks will land regardless, except the above exceptions that happen to be more spell-like

Blue Moon WolfDec 13, 20151 votes

To be fair, I think he is the only champ that has a dodge since they got rid of that stat... then again, I can only think of 2 champs with a blind of the top of my head .__.

Old Man TeetoDec 13, 20151 votes

Looks like Nidalee Q was forgotten, I call this a bug report thread now!

SaintshingDec 12, 20151 votes

That was supposed to be fixed in patch 5.22.

Historically, the way empowered basic attacks would affect their target if they'd fail to hit (due to Teemo's Blinding Dart, Pantheon's Aegis of Zeonia, or Jax's Counterstrike) has been pretty inconsistent. In some cases they'd do nothing, in others they'd apply crowd control (but no damage) and in a few they'd just ignore the status altogether. We've retooled these to more consistently meet expectations: if one of the following empowered basic attack misses its target, it won't deal any damage or apply any other effects. In cases where this is tied to a buff, that buff will be consumed as well.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-522-notes#patch-systems

Sire HippingtonDec 12, 20153 votes

how are voli Q and heca E more like spells than rene W, garen Q or nautis passive, which all also have cc on them and in garens case even a ms-buff just like voli and heca??

that are some very arbitrary exeptions imo...

Dominick DestineDec 12, 20154 votes

Agreed.

Though I dislike the idea of Jax becoming more powerful, it should block all auto-attack effects rather than just some.

Sire HippingtonDec 12, 20151 votes

yea, rather get that consistent and nerf him elsewhere to compensate...

MacDeathDec 12, 20152 votes

Becuz they're animals :3

IntakiNineDec 12, 20152 votes

Nids q is likely coded as a spell, albeit one triggered by initiating a basic attack.

gkFgW1GRAuDec 12, 20151 votes

I've posted a thread before on nids Q in regards to this. It was about how if Nid dies right when her q animation starts, it will finish the animation through death and do the damage. It got down voted because people said that it works as an auto attack enhancer and is the reason why it does this.

So if what your saying is true, what I posted is a bug or/and what you posted is a bug.

HawkefireDec 12, 20151 votes

If I had to guess, I'd say it was a bug given the recent change.

VerxintDec 12, 20151 votes

I would assume its an oversight.

TurquoiseYoshiDec 12, 20151 votes

[deleted]

JariDec 12, 20152 votes

This is more like an inconsistent kind of thing. If it's going to be different, it should at least say it's different because the ability's text states it's an auto attack modifier.

SaintshingDec 12, 20151 votes

If jax is too strong, nerf him properly. Making his abilities not function as expected isn't the right way to nerf a champion.

OyddAWqJ5rDec 13, 20151 votes

Hmm... honestly it should block anything that a blind would stop. But in certain matchups I could see counterstrike being way too strong of an ability. So honestly I think they should make it not stop any basic attack modifier or on-hit effect and just dodge the basic attack portions of them.

Gotta be fair here cuz otherwise Jax would be a bigger counter to certain champs than he already is and counter some champs he goes even with.

Examples of matchups that would be skewed by this in his favor: Aatrox Darius Garen Nasus Renekton Rengar Hecarim MonkeyKing Udyr Yorick and ofc Nidalee

I know some he already counters or has an upper hand against but this would be pushing it from having an advantage to hard countering (no pun intended).

Perhaps though it could be made better by instead reducing damage taken from aa modifiers by 100% of the opponents attack damage. That way essentially you are "dodging" the basic attack portion and just taking the modifier's bonus damage. Ofcourse this would reduce magic damage dealing modifiers and modifiers that don't even scale with attack damage by the same amount so magic damage isn't getting a free pass.

Also he'd still suffer any CC effects tied to these attacks.

blkKalameetDec 13, 20151 votes

Dodging implies that are not hit by the attack, if you are not hit by the attack then why should you take damage from any part of that attack?

Say I attack somebody with a poisoned sword, and they dodge the attack. Should they be poisioned?

For them to be poisioned in that example would make no sense. Just as it would make no sense for jax to be effected by cc or other abilities attached to an attack. Otherwise its a massive oversight in clarity.

OyddAWqJ5rDec 13, 20151 votes

Gameplay purposes. But jeez if you wanna be that nitpicky then ignore the suggestion and lets stay true to aa modifiers going through it. That or massive nerfs to Jax. I'm trying to provide alternate solutions to that, because obviously allowing him to actually dodge these AA modifiers negates his need for any defensive steroids meaning his ult would probably be the first thing hit with the nerf bat. And that's best case scenario. Most likely his damage will take the beating.

blkKalameetDec 13, 20151 votes

Then that would be acceptable way for him to be nurfed. If making his ability work the way it if written makes him unbalanced in areas then he should be toned down in other ways to keep him from being unbalanced.

OyddAWqJ5rDec 13, 20151 votes

ACTIVE: Jax enters a defensive stance for up to 2 seconds, blocking all basic attacks and reducing area of effect abilities by 25% for the duration.

BârdDec 13, 20151 votes

Dodge isn't a consistent mechanic.

blkKalameetDec 13, 20151 votes

Honestly I think it should block every ability that reads as an auto attack. Nasus q, other empowered aas, and all things like it. Just as a blind should do the same.

Because he is dodging the attack, implying that it never hit him.

Samflash3Dec 13, 20151 votes

I know what you mean. TF's W is more of an autoattack but it doesn't even crit even at full crit chance or apply lifesteal. Makes no sense.

Blue Moon WolfDec 13, 20151 votes

Right now I would say Riot is likely using the excuse that they are avoiding anything that could lower her winrate any farther than it already is. Though after her buffs and the immobile mage update (I know she's not immobile, but she will likely benefit from any new AP items riot makes), then they will definitely have some explaining to do since her winrate should be up and this still won't be fixed.

JARmatesDec 13, 20151 votes

A Jax player complaining. While we are on topic how come Jax players aren't complaining about how broken rageblade is?

SaintshingDec 13, 20151 votes

I am not a jax player. I just saw it on stream. Also why would I complain about rageblade IN THIS THREAD when that has nothing to do with the bug in discussion? If you want to complain about rageblade, you can make another post. Btw I did complain about fervor being broken on auto attack focused champions before it gets nerfed. You are just making random baseless assumptions.