Towers were never good. What you remember is slightly different, but it highlights a real issue.

Uiraya··285 votes·8,601 views

When you reminisce for the good old days when towers were useful for something other than vision and cheap teleports, what you are actually remembering is a time when if your opponent(s) wanted to dive you, they had to walk in, start hitting you, fight you, eventually kill you, then walk out. This put them at risk.

What happens today is that they dash in, kill you 70-0 instantly, then blink back out, taking maybe one tower shot.

Towers have always sucked. Mobility creep in this game, however, is better described as mobility leap. THAT is the problem, and THAT is what Riot should be tasked with addressing.

Solutions?

For starters, champions mid-dash who are hit with snares and the like should stop instantly, rather than completing their dash first (wasting cc time, and also probably killing you anyway). Reacting in time should be rewarded. Jumps with weird trajectories such as Tristana's should drop them to the "ground" appropriately.

Movement slows slow movement. It holds that movement slows should slow movement abilities. If Riven (for instance) is under a 30% slow, her Q animations finish 30% slower. Also, damage happens at the end of the animation, as you would expect. This opens up counterplay by allowing the player to use their slow to actually dodge the deluge of hypermobile champions currently warping the game. As it is, slow fields and effects are mostly inconsequential.

Lastly, when Riot says that champions pay for their mobility, they should actually mean it. Evelynn pays for her stealth. Mobile champs pay nothing for their mobility (quite often literally).

181 Comments

Biff Manly75 votes

Towers should be able to grow legs and run away if they take too much damage. On the flipside, they could use their newfound mobility to chase down the pesky assassins that murdelize their friends.

7 Fires20 votes

Great, look at what you made happen. It is glorious. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdPQeI_TJVk

Lugg40 votes

Towers were good at one point. You actually had to juggle aggro if you did a dive. No one complained then because if you died under tower, it was due to the enemy skill and teamwork. Now it's a complete joke. The squishiest champs on the rift can solo tower dive at will with no fear at all.

Sightless668 votes

When was this? I don't remember any time that I've been playing this game when towers were a real threat. I remember playing like they were, but that was just because I was bad. They never actually got nerfed. I mean that literally. There is no patch where towers have gotten a damage reduction.

Seriously, what patch were they good in and when did it end? I legitimately can't see it in their balance history. I think it's nostalgia for a time when people didn't realize how easy diving was.

The Soulforged3 votes

Season 2/3

Sightless6621 votes

Definitely not. They sucked even worse back then. All turrets got their damage buffed in patches 3.05 and 4.11 because they sucked so much, and they never got their damage nerfed. They've never had their damage decreased. Seriously, it never happened. Look at the patch notes. I can't see any patch where tower damage got nerfed. It actually doesn't exist, and I don't think there's anything else that would have made towers so much weaker between then and now.

I'm completely convinced this is all just because people used to be bad at this game. People remember not getting dived because they and their opponents were worse at the game, so they weren't competent enough to dive the turrets. People have gotten better in the seasons since, so they actually dive people.

Lugg5 votes

You sir are correct. There have never been nerfs to towers on Summoner's Rift. So I guess you were correct on the nostalgia and not diving correctly. Twisted Treeline did get significant nerfs on it's towers, so that's probably what I was thinking of. It's sad that they have been buffed a couple times and still do basically nothing after 10 minutes.

PePsiLemoNN2 votes

Or now every champion relased has 5 dashes

Teh Zio24 votes

I wish I could upvote this multiple times because you nailed it.

Lugg24 votes

{quoted}

Lastly, when Riot says that champions pay for their mobility, they should actually mean it. Evelynn pays for her stealth. Mobile champs pay nothing for their mobility (quite often literally).

This is the absolute truth right now. Very well said.

Dessem13 votes

People always tell me mobile champions do pay for their mobility, but in the case of champions like Riven, it's sometimes hard to decide what she pays for her high levels of mobility. Damage? She has truckloads. Durability? One of her mobility spells has a shield (albeit with short duration, but if you fail to dodge that skillshot you block its damage). Mana? Naw, she has no resources. CD? Broken Wings has 13s, 7.8s under 40% CD, effectively 4~5s depending on your Broken Wings follow-up timings; meanwhile her max level shielddash has 6/3.6s CD. CC? She has two.

So she doesn't pay for her mobility in damage, defensive skills, CC, Mana or cooldowns. She does have a lack of ranged attacks, and her HP regen is terrible. Her movement speed is 5 less than a lot of melee champions, and her armour isn't the greatest.

Champions who have those very same drawbacks don't necessarily have equal or more mobility than Riven, though, and often are limited by Mana costs.

I'm not saying Riven is overpowered (I don't think she is), but I'm always curious about what trade-off she has for her levels of mobility. I've never gotten a clear answer on just what champions are paying for their mobility.

ks9164 votes

If I had to guess maybe her low hp regen and in general lower base stats then other fighters? Truthful I'm not even sure if that's such a high cost for mobility.

Frikgeek4 votes

Riven does actually pay for her mobility though, at least in the laning phase. Look at most popular toplaners atm. Most of them have at least some way to farm outside their meele-ranged autoattacks in case they're getting shoved in or poked down. Having to walk up to 125 range of the creeps to lasthit and not having any sustain to shrug off poke makes her reliant on her shield. Champions like Irelia or Renekton have a much easier time against ranged pokers like Lissandra or Kennen due to their sustain. Olaf can just lasthit with axes, Mao has his Q and E to farm with at least some safety, even Fiora can pick up a few creeps with Riposte if she's getting out-traded.

Fiora has a lot of the same drawbacks but a lot of her damage is target agnostic(the beloved %hp true damage).

Obviously this becomes completely irrelevant once you get out of lane.

TheI3igDaddy3 votes

It's kinda funny when Evelynn players constantly whine about nerfs; when you have THE best jungling passive in the entire fucking game bar none, the rest of your kit has to pay heavily for it. Otherwise, she's pick or ban.

Lugg3 votes

Exactly. Who cares if she is relatively weak late game, she provides so much early pressure in the game just by being in the game. She doesn't even have to do anything, because the other team is hesitant to push or gank fearing she may be right there.

Nameless Voice7 votes

The point was that she pays for her strengths (stealth) by having major weaknesses in other areas.

Mobile champions don't pay for that mobility in the same way that she pays for her stealth.

Westonbirt19 votes

Tristana's jump is actually a dash, which is why you can do things like grab her in the middle and make the animation look stupid.

But you're right on everything else.

TotalJerk13 votes

Mobile champions 9/10 times usually pay for it with a lack of durability. The problem is that it doesn't matter how squishy a champion is if you can't pin them down in the first place.

g07h4xf0012 votes

Movement slows slow movement. It holds that movement slows should slow movement abilities. If Riven (for instance) is under a 30% slow, her Q animations finish 30% slower. Also, damage happens at the end of the animation, as you would expect. This opens up counterplay by allowing the player to use their slow to actually dodge the deluge of hypermobile champions currently warping the game. As it is, slow fields and effects are mostly inconsequential.

This right here is the biggest change they need to make. Actually make them feel "slow". What's the point of calling it a "slow" if they can still dash 400-600 units away instantly?

DeynaTaggerung11 votes

I agree strongly with dash animations not finishing and slows effecting movement abilities. It would probably mean some re-tuning of power on a lot of champs but it would add some counter-play to mobile champions.

BeMyFriendPlease7 votes

Mobile champs pay for their mobility.

They have higher damage ratios sure... but they often have 10-20 less health!

Slamurai Jack7 votes

Anyone who says that mobile champs don't pay for their mobility honestly isn't thinking clearly. Otherwise every single immobile champion in the game would be completely garbage since they would be outclassed by any mobile champ. But immobile champs have been the best option in every single role at 1 point or another. Imagine a champion like Zed without all of his mobility; what would he even do? Or Ekko. Or Leblanc. Or Riven.

As for the diving part, many of the scariest divers aren't even that mobile. Garen is one of the best tower divers in the game and he isn't mobile at all. Same with Dr. Mundo. And Tryndamere. And Nasus.

iamdestinos5 votes

But garen has the q speed up and if he gets dead mans and phage is very mobile. Not trying to say your argument is invalid it's just garen is able to move very quickly with his suggested build and keep his e on you. Otherwise some strong points made

APrinnyDood3 votes

If that's our criteria for very mobile, everyone with any mobility qualifies.

ks9163 votes

I'm not sure if all of them pay for mobility, for some like riven, Kata, yasou you can agrue that they pay through low base stats, other champions like fizz lose out a huge chunk of mana for there mobility spells, Kalista doesn't get a 1:1 ratio on her ad. But champions like ahri, ekko, rek'sai, lee sin don't really seem to pay for mobility. Also part of the question should be is the mobility worth the price of what they pay or is it too cheap on certain champions.

Leu077 votes

"What happens today is that they dash in, kill you 70-0 instantly, then blink back out, taking maybe one tower shot" Zed

ARequestOfDeath3 votes

you forgot Leblanc

SSJTribe4 votes

Zed's combo is so fast he's out before he takes one tower shot q_q

Wrath OF Rah5 votes

dealt with this earlier and its a real issue ..i had leblanc who was on 2-0-1 and i was playing jinx (squishy i know) but she would come bot dive me under turret phase back out and litterally not take a hit. when i did successfully snare her she could move just use her ability to get out of it thus leaving no room for counterplay besides build mr heavy on an adc. a true issue in this game if you ask me

Jasiwel4 votes

If towers are supposed to be weak against champions, then buff them against minions. I understand the state of Outer Turrets, but Inhib/Nexus Turrets should be able to clear away minions much faster.

TurquoiseYoshi2 votes

I think there's a typo in the first line.

Sugar Momma4 votes

Or it could just be people get better at the game the longer they play it, and more experienced players have always been more apt to tower dive than less experienced?

Sightless662 votes

Well, yeah, that's the majority of it, but there is a good argument for this being a small part of the answer too.

Cindikle4 votes

What if we could add items to the turrets?

  • Magic/armor pen(Counters tanks from just holding agro for a 10s teamfight).
  • Anti-Dash field(Counters turret diving assassins)
  • The shield thing(Helps from being poked under turret)
  • Turrets deal AoE damage every x attacks. Gives you 10% gold it gains from minion kills.(Helps when behind or cannot defend a lane as easily.)
  • Turret attacks turn into a laser that adds a stacking slow to it's target(like a frost beam).(Helps counter a team from diving you.)
  • Turret deal a close range AoE pulse at it's base every % of it's HP is lost. (Helps vs split pushing).

You get the idea.

hhaavviikk3 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrrV_WjT1d0

towers were always weak, this was 2 years ago, no bliks or dashes involved, simply some ms, the udyr didn't even have to use his red pot to instantly gain some health

NazZomLord2 votes

Seeing that the only champ that i play with a dash is Fiora (a rather short one compared to most) I have trouble with people who dont have mobility too. Garen, Darius, Yi, even the occasional support. The armor shred need to be higher, i am tired of just seeing a Garen or Darius with a half complete Sunfire walk under turret and kill me without a consequence. The champs arent OP the turrets are UP. I believe better armor shred and the anti mobility of turrets will work well together. But the snare or grounding shouldnt be so cheap that they die by just jumping out of turret range when taking down a turret. I believe if it is targeted at a living champ or directly after killing a champ it should be active.

I believe that if it only works when certain things are met because if i am running away from a champ under a turret and i dash over a wall or i am taking down a turret and dash away as the last minion dies should all be open and viable.

Ayame Isaki5 votes

Garen can nuke a full health Fiora as of 5.18 under her tower at 6. Her dash isn't far enough to escape his Q or his E. He does this with only a Doran's shield. This happened to me twice yesterday. I see Garen more than any top lamer these days. I think he's just a bit overpowered.

NazZomLord4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ayame Isaki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3LbgoXZ5,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-09-17T20:25:31.420+0000)

Garen can nuke a full health Fiora as of 5.18 under her tower at 6. Her dash isn't far enough to escape his Q or his E. He does this with only a Doran's shield. This happened to me twice yesterday. I see Garen more than any top lamer these days. I think he's just a bit overpowered.

Eh, i mean you can block his ult and get some health play dancing around him. Fiora really isnt a champ to turret dive on. But yes a unskilled Fiora will get nuked by a Garen under tower.

Ayame Isaki2 votes

{quoted}

Eh, i mean you can block his ult and get some health play dancing around him. Fiora really isnt a champ to turret dive on. But yes a unskilled Fiora will get nuked by a Garen under tower.

Unskilled. That's me! Only recently graduated her from bot games to Team Builder. Aside from Garen, I do alright. Ill get the hang of her eventually!

NightOfLight2 votes

Heres a tip most of Garens damage comes from his e avoid it he loses most of his damage also if you have high damage lv1 use it Garen is mostly passive lv1 since he wants to stack w most of the time unless he started q. Also he is very weak to slows and stuns since they stop his movement try to use these. Finally garens ult uses magic damage unless your the villain in which if your laning is no longer an issue if you kill him so buy some MR and the power of his ult will go down unless you killed their jungler or something in which case have your team deal with him and avoid him while half or under as the villain.

ks9162 votes

If you can correctly time your riposte as his ult animation is about to start I think you can survive vs Garen. Later on for a should out scale Garen with all her dmg I think if she isn't the villain and you can time your riposte (I'm not 100% sure on outscaling just my experience from my games after lvl 16ish I can start winning vs him if I've kept up in farm)

P0IS0N IVY2 votes

K how about increased aggro range.

Towers normally have 775 range. When an enemy attacks you within that range, the tower will aggro them. In order to stop that aggro, they will have to move 900 units away from the tower. Adjust as needed.

And they need to do more damage.

BlkGolem2 votes

Yeah, mobility makes sense on a champ like Janna, where it's supposed to be a theme, but on a lot of meta champs it really seems to just have been dumped on in good hearty portions without really anything to set them back for it, other than general lack of tankiness, but then again you wouldn't call most adcs tanky either and there is a reason for that. Dashes are annoying, but really what I don't get is why there is arbitrarily so much extra basic movement speed for so many champs that already have dashes anyway.

TenSlashTen2 votes

Ever since removal of fortification towers have been shit.

Krys Star2 votes

Lastly, when Riot says that champions pay for their mobility, they should actually mean it. Mobile champs pay nothing for their mobility (quite often literally).

Quote of the year imo.

Noraver2 votes

Riven DOES pay for her mobility though...

With all that gold she gets from killing you five times under your turret. :^)

killd0zer1 votes

slows affecting abilities is an instant nono that will never be added.

wouldn't even both asking, it's a horrible idea

MalzaharAnyLane1 votes

Pre-season is when a change like that would happen. Worlds is going to suck and be meh, same story as the last two season endcaps, most of the playerbase is just waiting for Worlds to end to stop being an excuse not to make badly needed balance changes and reverts.

killd0zer2 votes

{quoted}

Pre-season is when a change like that would happen. Worlds is going to suck and be meh, same story as the last two season endcaps, most of the playerbase is just waiting for Worlds to end to stop being an excuse not to make badly needed balance changes and reverts.

a change like that will never happen

ever

at all

quote me on this

HaugheyPuck992 votes

{quoted} quote me on this

k

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