AD Caster Itemization

Legalize Riven·Jul 16, 2015·14 votes·1,816 views

Does anybody else think that AD Caster/Assassin itemization feels really awkward (not to mention bland) at the moment? The only real item that feels right is brutalizer, and pretty much all else that they build feels like a waste of stats, in my opinion. (EG- Finishing Brutalizer on Riven, even though Crit and AtkSpd aren't exactly stats she prioritizes) Ever since the Black Cleaver rework, I've felt awkward, not that Cleaver isn't good on these people, it just feels like it's catering more toward tanky bruisers now. Even life steal can feel wasted depending on the champ and your playstyle. I don't exactly think that AD Casters need a buff, I just don't feel like their build paths are optimal and it just feels weird. I'd enjoy a new item, but that would indirectly buff so many of these champs that it would probably throw off game balance. TL;DR- It would be cool if there were better itemization choices specifically for those AD Casters/Assassins out there, builds can feel really weird and it's hard not to waste gold on stats you don't need at times.

29 Comments

KirynDawnJul 16, 20156 votes

AD spell vamp item would be awesome

DeynaTaggerungJul 16, 20151 votes

Spell Vamp only applies to magic damage.

Let's look at an interesting example. Ezreal is a champ that scales off ad and ap, hence he's one of the few champions that can build a hextech gunblade without it being a huge waste of stats.

Looking at his q it gains extra damage from the ad and extra damage from the ap. However, all that damage is applied as physical damage. So if he's doing say 500 damage with his q, he will lifesteal 50 health. He WILL NOT get any health back from the 20% spell vamp provided by that item. Because even though it's a spell, and even though it scales with ap, the damage is applied as entirely physical damage.

On the other hand, his w (and r) is applied as magic damage. So if he does 300 damage to an enemy with this, he will spellvamp 60 health back, gaining nothing from his lifesteal.

This applies to all champs, so having more AD (except in rare cases of magic damage scaling with ad) will not help with spell vamp.

Hope this helps :)

Critmaster GarenJul 16, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Spell Vamp only applies to magic damage.

wrong.

it applies to all spells that are not considered empowered auto attacks like gangplanks or wukongs q. including physical damage dealing spells. that includes abilities like garens spin. it actually triggers spellvamp.

KirynDawnJul 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Spell Vamp only applies to magic damage.

Let's look at an interesting example. Ezreal is a champ that scales off ad and ap, hence he's one of the few champions that can build a hextech gunblade without it being a huge waste of stats.

Looking at his q it gains extra damage from the ad and extra damage from the ap. However, all that damage is applied as physical damage. So if he's doing say 500 damage with his q, he will lifesteal 50 health. He WILL NOT get any health back from the 20% spell vamp provided by that item. Because even though it's a spell, and even though it scales with ap, the damage is applied as entirely physical damage.

On the other hand, his w (and r) is applied as magic damage. So if he does 300 damage to an enemy with this, he will spellvamp 60 health back, gaining nothing from his lifesteal.

This applies to all champs, so having more AD (except in rare cases of magic damage scaling with ad) will not help with spell vamp.

Hope this helps :)

um no? Do you even play league. Spell vamp applies to all damage except for auto attacks. (yes even smite and ignite).

Hope this helps :)

Critmaster GarenJul 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

um no? Do you even play league. Spell vamp applies to all damage except for auto attacks. (yes even smite and ignite).

Hope this helps :)

i think parrley and such abilities apply lifesteal, since they are mechanically considered to be auto attacks. they can critically strike and apply on hit effects in general.

not to confuse with spells that apply on hit effects like ezreals q.

it can get really weird when you try figuring out how some champion abilities actually work.

i think garens q is one of those abilities that is considered an auto attack. hence why a teemo blind can cause it to miss and it can apply lifesteal. maybe. im not sure anymore. its really hard to keep track of these things, since they tend to change. i remember garens q not being affected by blinds for example. that changed when they readded its ability to crit.

KirynDawnJul 16, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2u7LJgR3,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2015-07-16T15:29:02.083+0000)

i think parrley and such abilities apply lifesteal, since they are mechanically considered auto attacks. they can critically strike and apply on hit effects in general.

not to confuse with spells that apply on hit effects like ezreals q.

it can get really weird when you try figuring out how some champion abilities actually work.

you are correct if a ability creates an on hit effect (Jax W or something). It will not apply spell vamp but lifesteal instead.

AD spell vamp item would buff a lot of ADC's (Lucian / Vayne(her E)) and Junglers (Kha zix and Volibear).

Tbh I would love to see kha zix back in the meta. Fun champ

CrazedPorcupineJul 16, 20151 votes

I think the best way to create an AD/Spell vamp item is if it converted lifesteal to spell vamp, so the only sustain you got was from abilities and not autos.

KirynDawnJul 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I think the best way to create an AD/Spell vamp item is if it converted lifesteal to spell vamp, so the only sustain you got was from abilities and not autos.

Now we're on to something. That would be a really fun way to play. While we're at it we can make an item that changes healing abilities into damaging abilities. (Summoner heal now hurts and slow the enemy instead of healing and speeding up the user). Or like it would make Nidalee 's E hurt an enemy and slow AS instead of speeding up whoever was healed. That would make the game SOO diverse :O!

CrazedPorcupineJul 16, 20153 votes

IDK, soraka could be pretty broken like that, as well as sona.

Jaygo41Jul 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

you are correct if a ability creates an on hit effect (Jax W or something). It will not apply spell vamp but lifesteal instead.

AD spell vamp item would buff a lot of ADC's (Lucian / Vayne(her E)) and Junglers (Kha zix and Volibear).

Tbh I would love to see kha zix back in the meta. Fun champ

Spirit stone... how we miss you

DeynaTaggerungJul 16, 20151 votes

It does! I guess I've been mistaken about spell vamp for a long time, probably because it's not in widespread use and is always bundled with ap items.

(Do you even play league... rly? rly?)

Mecha KhaZixJul 16, 20151 votes

Spell Vamp only applies to magic damage.

You're flat-out wrong. Spell Vamp applies to Spells.

AbyssphereJul 16, 20153 votes

Yeah AD Caster itemisation is horrendously bad. There is not a single class in the game that I enjoy hitting full build on less, even bruisers/tanks have a better time of it, and supports too.

I genuinely think I'd enjoy AD assassins/casters in general so much more if I could actually enjoy building them, but it feels like after two items you just get whatever filler you can come up with to take up the rest of your slots. Not at all fun.

TheI3igDaddyJul 17, 20151 votes

Renekton

item 3047 item 3074 item 3071 item 3143 item 3065 item 3075 or item 3156

Idk bro, I like full build Renekton a lot. But then again he's a bruiser so I guess you weren't really talking about him? Probably more Zed / Panth / Talon?

AbyssphereJul 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

or

Idk bro, I like full build Renekton a lot. But then again he's a bruiser so I guess you weren't really talking about him? Probably more Zed / Panth / Talon?

Yeah I more mean the people who synergise a lot less with tanky items. Bruisers are fine because while pure "bruiser" items are somewhat lacking, they can fall back on a whole bunch of good tank items that fit into their build. But with the more offensive AD casters you just can't build a couple of items and then start on your Randuin's.

AyRe CoNteMpTJul 16, 20151 votes

i think assassins have totally fine items and choices to make. ad-casters are like, who exactly? really only pantheon, or who did i miss? because i think, champs like renekton, riven, wukong, darius etc who live mainly off of their strong damage and cc spells are still GENERALLY "ad casters" but are really more fighter/bruiser type champs while pantheon is a true caster who optimally wants to be full damage backliner who peels and inches his way forward, like spartans would.

i used to build him warriors, hydra, blood thirster, essence reaver, maw, last whisper, but yeah, all those things have on-hits and even if he can use them, hes not really super happy about them.

there are no real ad-caster items except maybe black cleaver and thats only mediocre for him too.

Legalize RivenJul 16, 20151 votes

Not quite that Bruiser-y. I'm more thinking about Zed, Riven, Jayce, Talon, people like that. But that's essentially what I'm getting at, these champs don't necessarily focus on autoing enough to warrant on-hits like a lot of the items they build have.

Critmaster GarenJul 16, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Not quite that Bruiser-y. I'm more thinking about Zed, Riven, Jayce, Talon, people like that. But that's essentially what I'm getting at, these champs don't necessarily focus on autoing enough to warrant on-hits like a lot of the items they build have.

every ad caster has some mechanic built into his kit, that amplifies his auto attacks. if youre playing an ad caster, you should always weave auto attacks in between your abilities, so they actually do auto quite a lot. especially riven.

talon has damage amplification on auto attacks against slowed targets.
riven has a stacking sheen passive as her champion passive.
renekton builds up rage to amplify his spells by auto attacking.
zed has % magic damage on his passive (and deals a shitton in general due to ad deathcap on his w).
garen has critical stike scaling on his abilites.
urgot reduces the damage of the target hes attacking.
pantheon builds stacks for his passive by auto attacking.

however, id really like an ad spellvamp item. and i think it can be done in a balanced way by having the spellvamp passive scale with bonus ad. meaning you only get a lot of health return out of it, if you actually stack a lot of ad with the item.

this would really make sure, that the item is most effective on champions its targeted at. meaning the ones who like to stack high amounts of raw ad.

id also like to have more bruiser items that grant crit without having attack speed attached to them. i really miss the old atmas for its ad/armor/crit combination (when it still granted 18% crit chance).

Legalize RivenJul 16, 20151 votes

I'm not saying autos aren't important, I know that they weave autos into their spell rotations, etc. But it's not like they really benefit from attack speed like from Youmuu's active, or BoRK. Like I'd never build an attack speed item on Riven, because the fast Q+Auto combo lets you auto pretty much as fast as you can Q. Or like I don't usually build BoRK on Zed because I think Hydra is a situationally better choice for him. It just doesn't feel right wasting stats, and a lot of the best build paths waste a lot of stats. (It sounds like I'm specifically targeting attack speed here, but it goes for a few other stats as well.)

Critmaster GarenJul 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm not saying autos aren't important, I know that they weave autos into their spell rotations, etc. But it's not like they really benefit from attack speed like from Youmuu's active, or BoRK. Like I'd never build an attack speed item on Riven, because the fast Q+Auto combo lets you auto pretty much as fast as you can Q. Or like I don't usually build BoRK on Zed because I think Hydra is a situationally better choice for him. It just doesn't feel right wasting stats, and a lot of the best build paths waste a lot of stats.

this is all depending on the individual champion.

for riven? no, attack speed isnt that great.

for garen, ghostblade is an amazing item, while i wouldnt build bork on him.

for zed and talon, bork is a good item. the active slow synergizes well with talons passive, and for zed, it helps him to nuke with his ult.

on the other hand, cleaver is a really strong item on both, garen and riven, but not very good on talon or zed.

hydra is good on riven, talon, zed, but not that good on garen.

even though theyre all ad caster type champions, they have different synergies with certain items. thats probably half the problem in creating clear ad caster itemization. similar to how there are a lot of different types of ap champs, you would have to create a large variety of ad items so every ad caster has ome item he synergizes well with. always at the risk that ad carries are abusing these items.

that doesnt mean i wouldnt like to see more iems for ad casters though. i think the easiest fix in most cases is to simple make more "melee only" items. that would leave urogot behind a bit, but from my experience with him he already has a pretty good item pool.

Legalize RivenJul 16, 20151 votes

What I would like to see are some items that have AD and interact with abilities, or just something unique to distinctly say "This is good for X because Y". Not necessarily spellvamp, like a lot of other people seem to want, but something different. Like how tanky mages can build RoA to compliment their tanky mageyness, you know what I mean? Currently the ad casters have to pick and choose from all the other classes' builds, and it just feels awkward to me.

thePandevJul 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Not quite that Bruiser-y. I'm more thinking about Zed, Riven, Jayce, Talon, people like that. But that's essentially what I'm getting at, these champs don't necessarily focus on autoing enough to warrant on-hits like a lot of the items they build have.

BT Hydra LW BC Maw/Merc Scim and boots would be an optimal Talon/Riven build, although with Zed you could replace Maw/Scim for BoRK

Jayce (and sometimes Kha) would get Muramana for the Merc/Scim

Maybe the odd tank item (Randuins/FH) but other than that, your build is extremely limited. Essence Reaver is kind of useless because anyone who needs mana just gets Muramana and that's usually enough.

I mean the only exception I can see here is maybe Trinity on Jayce.

Youmuu's IMO is overrated. BC gives higher AD, CDR, it's passive effect is godsent, and the MS bonus on Rage is better than Youmuu's.

Need items which do something else other than LS/AD/CDR. The only active effects in these builds are Hydra (DMG and Lifesteal), Merc Scim (Nice active but expensive AF) and Muramana (DMG) There is nothing cool and unique like Zhonya's/Rylai's/RoA. I mean they took out Atma's, and removing that was a mistake. Need more diversity.

Legalize RivenJul 18, 20151 votes

Well said, item diversity is my main concern along with there being nothing special like those items.

AyRe CoNteMpTJul 16, 20151 votes

even tho some champions dont rely much on auto attacks as their main source of damage, for ME that doesnt make them ad-casters.

riven definitely isnt an ad caster and zed and talon arent aswell. they are clearly assassin-types and even tho their damage comes from abilities, the use of said abilities are clearly not spell-cast-resembling for me. even tho talon could barely pass due to him at least having 2 somewhat caster-ish abilities, but his main damage still comes from auto attacking and auto attack resets and all of his spells are basically instant, so there is no concept of "casting".

for jayce and even varus i would say they both can pass as ad-casters but since they both have extremely good waveclear and long range, they have many options to build and to choose their powerspikes freely. many itemizations possible, so there's also no real need to do anything about it. they are fine.

really the only one who comes to mind as a true ad-caster in need of help is pantheon as he has almost no waveclear, very low range and he has to stand in close vicinity to his enemies and actually CHANNEL a spell to deal his main damage (wow, that is ad-caster style at its finest), this makes his itemization very limited.

black cleaver is a decent item on him in theory but he actually doesnt want the health and the %shred is mediocre too. now what else is there? he needs alot of high, raw AD and there is no item in the entire game that consistently gives cheap high AD without any other added bullshit. the ONLY "big" item in the ENTIRE GAME that has no downside for pantheon is last whisper because it gives him armor penetration and AD, exactly what he needs.

all other items pantheon likes alot all have downsides. as cool as hydra, essence reaver and bloodthirster are on him, those items live on their on-hit effects and pantheon at his best doesnt auto attack much. very little at best, so all these amazing on-hit effects go to waste.

infinity edge also does nothing for him as his main damage (E) doesnt crit, he doesnt auto attack much and his Q only crits when hitting enemies below 15% health and it has 100% chance to do so, so even the crit chance on IE is lost. maw and scimitar have added defensive effects that, even tho very good in some situations, are still expensive in their own right.

pantheon just has a very hard time buying raw damage without spending money on, well not exactly useless but definitely less usefull utility. the brutalizer is amazing for him but sadly there is no real "upgraded version" of it. now with the new jungle items, warrior is an actually upgraded brutalizer and made pantheon stronger again. tho this is the only item like that and even that is not very strong and slot efficient.

so, what would a very cost-efficient pantheon look like? warriors, last whisper, ionian boots, BFsword, BFsword, BFsword....

there simply are no usefull ad-caster items for him.

Dr PoroJul 16, 20151 votes

Last whisper is a perfect item, but you don't build it as first. Hydra is generally a very good first item. While life steal is not a priority, it does help in lane. You can regenerate with it after a fight so you can finish of damaged enemies. The active also acts as a "free AA reset" (no on hit effects though). Other than that, it's true that AD casters (assassins) have to take items with stats they don't really favor. But it's okay because they're balanced around this fact. If they'd get an item like item 3104 used to be (with the spell vamp + ArPen) they'd be over the top.

Critmaster GarenJul 16, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Poro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2u7LJgR3,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-07-16T15:19:23.346+0000)

Last whisper is a perfect item, but you don't build it as first. Hydra is generally a very good first item. While life steal is not a priority, it does help in lane. You can regenerate with it after a fight so you can finish of damaged enemies. The active also acts as a "free AA reset" (no on hit effects though). Other than that, it's true that AD casters (assassins) have to take items with stats they don't really favor. But it's okay because they're balanced around this fact. If they'd get an item like used to be (with the spell vamp + ArPen) they'd be over the top.

dude, id love to have pillager or some other type of wicket hachet item on summoners rift. not even talking about the old pillager with spellvamp, but just the current one.

ideally make it one that combines with armor.

CrazedPorcupineJul 16, 20151 votes

Riot will never give strong HIGH AD items for AD casters. AD champions already have a lot of advantages over AP champs (Tower taking and strong autos). The only way an AD caster would be able to be created and balanced, is if there was an item that reduced auto attack damage against everything, and also reduced AS, then MAYBE we'd be able to have a proper AD Caster.

YumaS2AstralJul 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Riot will never give strong HIGH AD items for AD casters. AD champions already have a lot of advantages over AP champs (Tower taking and strong autos). The only way an AD caster would be able to be created and balanced, is if there was an item that reduced auto attack damage against everything, and also reduced AS, then MAYBE we'd be able to have a proper AD Caster.

The reason why there are no high AD items for AD casters is because AD casters tend to have much higher AD ratios on their abilities, compared to the AP ratios on the AP casters abilities. Most AP casters have about 50/80% AP scaling on their abilities at best, you rarely see an AP caster with 90% AP ratio or above. On other hand, most AD casters have abilities that surpass 100% bonus AD ratio.

This is made to allow AD casters to deal as much damage with their abilities as AP casters do with theirs. And it is exactly because of the reason you provided. AD casters have strong auto-attacks, so they need to have items with lower raw AD to not make their auto-attacks too strong, and their high AD ratios on abiltiies are there to compensate the lower AD they generally have.

Keep in mind that an AD champion almost never end up with more than 400 AD, while an AP champion can easily have more than 800 AP.

ChaoticPineconeJul 17, 20151 votes

I always thought their itemization is pretty good.

Hydra for the extra burst/farming. Ghostblade to position better, CDR, and ArPen. Maw for the AD + MR. Mercurial for the MR and active. BC for the teamwide % pen. LW for the selfish % pen. Trinity and Manamune if you can use/farm it. Plus the ADC items like IE and BT. And certain autoattackers like Zed and Rengar can use Botrk. Plus you can always throw a Randiuns or GA in there if you want to be more defensive.

At least its not stagnant like the tank items. You basically need Frozen Heart, Randiuns, Banshees, Thornmail, (GA/Warmogs/Spirit Visage) to tank anythnign once everyone hits lategame.