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Tanks are too OP

SanD45··3 votes·2,662 views

Hi I am unranked and mostly I play with silver 3-1. I like adc the most but I like to play other role too. I have problem with top lane, because most tanks are top laners and I found them much better and OP then other roles. Especially Camille , Darius , Garen . Camille is so much tanky and can deal super amount of damage with Q, keeping range and kite is almost impossible because she can E for getting close from big range and stun, after this slow so without any escape ability on greater range (Ezreal) you cannost escape her Q and when Camille ults you, it's nearly impossible to avoid close range. I played as Kalista and Camille just one shotted me with boosted Q. Darius is super tanky, with ability to get you towards him, slow, burst and sustain damage and great heal. I played as Kled and trust me, when we went to 1v1 fight, he didnt hit me ONCE with blade on Q. I really tried hard to get out of range or get close to him when needed but sustain damage and true damage on his ultimate is too strong and avoiding it is almost impossible and it requires twice as more skill then Darius needs to get penta. Garen is tank, with high mobility, ability to silence you (great disable to casters like Malzahar, Velkoz etc.), sustain damage which can score crits and ultimate. when I am ranged champion and he try to get close to me with Q I cannot kite, I have to run as fast as I can, if I bought only item 1001 sometimes I have to use abilities or if someone fed him, I have to summoner 4 . Just make tanks tanky and remove their damage, these champs counter big amount of champions and has only few counters.

50 Comments

EndlessSorcerer8 votes

None of those champions are tanks.

They are all fighters (with Darius and Garen being Juggernauts).

I would highly suggest you read this.

Penns3 votes

"Assassins specialize in infiltrating enemy lines with their unrivaled mobility to quickly dispatch high-priority targets." xd

Ralanr3 votes

When played right they actually do function like that.

Penns2 votes

"**Quickly **dispatch" ... not really, and even if they technically could, they are so overloaded with counterplay that it doesnt even matter.

Radiant Wukong4 votes

item 3036 item 3071 , suddenly tanks aren't so tanky anymore. You're welcome. [slayer-jinx-wink]

nm10103 votes

item 3071 directly reduces the effectiveness of item 3036 both with the armor reduction and the hp. You'd be better off with a crit item and item 3036 to increase your dps more.

Berserknurple2 votes

Not if you're trying to kill a tank. Black cleaver is total armor, and last whisper is specifically bonus armor. The bonus armor is reduced and then the total armor is reduced after that, it's always still more effective to have both than just one. If a Tank has 300+ armor, which they almost always will, a crit item won't help you much at all. You'd possibly be better off building a BORK if it's a high health less armor build.

EndlessSorcerer5 votes

Reduction applies before penetration.

Black Cleaver applies first, then percentage penetration, then flat penetration.

nm10102 votes

Refer to endlesssorcerer who tells you why you are wrong. Crit lifesteal lw is almost always the correct option, for a pure tank yes you can go bork instead of black cleaver for the lifesteal option.

Radiant Wukong2 votes

I'm glad BerserkNurple replied before I did, because I was definitely going to be an asshole with my reply.

nm10103 votes

He saved you the opportunity to be wrong then, black cleaver applies first which reduces the lw pen. Against tanks you get very little extra pen with this build which makes it very inefficient. Maybe against 3 tanks you could argue it, but never against less than that.

Radiant Wukong1 votes

You're an idiot, so let me help you not look stupid.

  1. flat armor reduction
  2. % armor reduction
  3. % armor penetration
  4. flat armor penetration

Going to use Rammus as an example against a full AD team like Darius, Talon, Lee Sin, Cait, Sion. Rammus item 3068 item 3075 item 3025 item 3742 item 3110 item 3047 Rammus base armor = 104 Rammus bonus armor = 412 Rammus total armor = 516

Rammus' effective armor against 6 stacks item 3071 alone = 361 (from total armor) Rammus' effective armor against item 3036 alone = 331 (reduced bonus armor to 227 from 412)

item 3071 item 3036 Black Cleaver reduces base armor to 73 and bonus armor to 288 Last Whisper then reduces bonus armor to 158 Rammus' effective armor against both item 3071 item 3036 = 231

THAT'S A 100 ARMOR DIFFERENCE!

Please tell me more about how having both is counter effective?

Caitlyn item 3153 item 3006 item 3085 item 3036 item 3046 item 3071 against Malphite top Ahri mid Rammus jungle Ashe carry Taric support

nm10103 votes

Its almost like you ignored this part

item 3071 directly reduces the effectiveness of item 3036

Maybe against 3 tanks you could argue it, but never against less than that.

Malphite Rammus Taric

Notice how I said reduces the effectiveness of lw, yes you get more total armor reduction but you are giving up dps for what is normally slightly increased damage vs tanks. In your very extreme example Cait would still not build item 3071 do to the Darius/Talon having it.

In your example assuming Caitlyn was dense and opted to not get item 3087 for occasional magic damage and got the item 3071 along with the other people on her team it would make her average raw dps is ~612.17 (no headshots to keep consistency with other ad's).

Rammus's effective hp with max item 3071 stacks applied at the start is ~6990.06 this means Caitlyn would have to shoot Rammus for ~11.5 seconds to kill him.

Now lets switch in an item 3031 instead of item 3071 and Caitlyn's dps becomes ~905.1 while Rammus's effective hp goes up to ~10016.06 meaning it would take Caitlyn ~11.1 seconds to kill him.

So as you can see I was wrong about stacking them ever being worth it as the raw dps upgrade of item 3031 makes up for even max stack item 3071 vs one of the tankiest characters in league. Vs anything slightly less tanky the second build gets even better in comparison.

Dps Calculation = Ad x [crit multiplier Damage multiplier = 1 + (Critical chance × (1 + Bonus critical damage))] x Attacks per Second

This is why I get frustrated dealing with people on gameplay, no actual knowledge on how the game mechanics function.

Edit: Also what bronze ass Rammus goes item 3025 and item 3110 over a item 3143 for reduced crit damage.

Radiant Wukong1 votes

  1. That build gives Cait the max 2.5 as (actually over it).

  2. That build gives Cait 60% crit chance.

  3. Headshot still does 900 damage, more than enough to execute any ADC after 2 or 3 autos and absolutely make a tank step the bleep back when she has that much armor pen and AS.

  4. I 100% give you props on the item 3143 thing, something I didn't take into consideration when I changed the champ to Rammus. I originally went with Malphite, who has over 800 armor with this build and doesn't need crit damage reduction but crit shots would tickle him, but I didn't feel like doing the extra calculations of bonus armor with his passive because I wasn't sure if the 30% bonus to base armor counted as base or bonus.

  5. Being the fact that Rammus, Taric and Malphite all have ways to get to the back line (especially after an Ashe ult), it'd doesn't really let them focus a tank. Talon & Lee Sin should be focused on Ahri. Due to Rammus/Malphite having bonus AD and thornmail dealing back a lot of magic damage with sunfire, it's best for Darius/Sion to try to reach Ahri/Ashe so they don't get melted themselves (taking into consideration Taric's new ult).

  6. It's entirely possible to never crit with 80% criit chance, which means Cait would actually do significantly less damage. In a 1v1 against Rammus (the other 8 are dead), that infinity edge would be useless. Rammus (who would have Randuin's) would yum yum those shots, not really feeling threatened until that 4th black cleaver shot has him at 20% total armor reduction.

nm10101 votes

Ok so we are going to change items in previous replies now? You had item 3072 not item 3153 wait until I get home and I'll show why you are still wrong.

nm10101 votes

That build gives Cait the max 2.5 as (actually over it).

  1. No that build gives Cait ~1.86 attack speed (base .568 x [1 + 68% from levels + 40% on runaans + 45% on PD + 40% on blade + 35% on boots]) not factoring in runes for consistency in my previous post.

  2. Yes it does.

  3. Headshot with those items (blade loses 45 ad on the bt you had before) does (50% of ad + (.5 x total crit bonus damage [200%] x crit strike chance [60%]) = 110% AD) ~660.9 with a crit, again nowhere near your number. A tank wouldn't exactly like taking that, but it is unlikely you have any item 3071 stacks so it would be much less damage in reality.

  4. The item 3071 ratio of effectiveness vs the dps increase of item 3031 is literally .1%, to get a sizeable enough difference to actually be worth it you would need a lot of armor ~800 should be the break even point, but I'm not doing the calculations for a different champ again.

  5. Let's not start theorizing fights in a made up scenario.

  6. I'm using the mathematically correct formula for calculating the general dps increase expected with crit. This is not something you just get to say might* not happen (especially since it is highly likely league even has a rubber band system for crit to keep you critting around the right amount of times). Here is the page for the formula

https://i.gyazo.com/a6bdf4c70e5ff68bc08ccbe9740985ec.png

So with that out of the way your new build (without boots, since I did forget those in the first run through, or headshot again) would give Cait an average dps of ~586.18 Rammus still has the ~6990.06 effective health meaning it takes 12 seconds to deplete him without bork passive. Bork is worth on average hit over the 12 seconds ~104.68 extra damage on hit. This factored in gives ~690.86 and ~10.1 seconds to kill (slightly slower since there isn't a formula for bork damage over time so I made my own rough one on the 12 second model).

New build with item 3071 replaced by item 3031 again comes up with Cait's dps ~879.04 vs the ~10016.06 effective hp of Rammus taking ~11.4 seconds to kill without bork. With the ~104.68 extra on hit we get ~983.72 dps and 10.1 seconds to kill again.

So it is actually quite close (ignoring the cleaver stacks build up time) until you factor in a better scaling ad (standard .625 base attack speed for example instead of Cait the worst base attack speed stat) and the IE build starts vastly out scaling the item 3071 with the multiplicative scaling between crit and attack speed. Shoot even the crit damage scaling on headshot would probably be enough to push it over the edge for Cait (Your build is 1.1 multiplier vs IE 1.5 multiplier, plus the IE build is higher AD so the multiplier is more effective).

Edit: Could've probably taken Bork damage vs 50% hp Rammus (121.04) for a fairly accurate average damage, but I'm lazy and not rewriting it.

Radiant Wukong1 votes

You're one of those people that know every piece of math that goes into creating a watch but don't know how to adjust the time. Unlike you, doing 10 years of research, only to be gold lol

[zombie-brand-clap]

At least you made P2 this season.

I use my noob build of item 3071 item 3036 to keep my LP above 30 in D5. Made D1 promos a few times as well. In all fairness though, I never ADC. JG/top/mid are my worlds.

nm10101 votes

You're one of those people who has an account ready to link claiming they are diamond on a forum smurf, but in reality your average game is you going 3/9/7 vs this

https://i.gyazo.com/dcd30135d2436447aa8b4a5f6111a1bd.png

You know you have the low elo beat when they start to resort to the same old claims lol.

Radiant Wukong1 votes

How about this. I'll pick Cait, you pick any primary tank. I have to build BC/LW, you have to build at least 300 bonus armor. We 1v1.

If you're not up to the challenge, I'll take that as a victory in itself. I can back up my forum post in game, can you Mr. Gold?

nm10101 votes

First off what does a 1v1 with an adc vs a tank do? I would just pick Rammus or Malphite and you would lose, unless the tank player is bronze or you cheesed a full lifesteal, mr, and pen build that is the way it would always work.

Secondly do you know how to look anything up correctly? This was my rank last season

https://i.gyazo.com/84e50bd5e6809699c2fd6a6d903c9d37.png

https://i.gyazo.com/f808f1d5082301e7517a1ddac211b2a4.png

Even my mmr right now is frustrating to play with due to matches with mid diamonds while switching up my main champions this season. You'd probably recognize some names, but I circled it for you so you don't miss it :^)

https://i.gyazo.com/025554db767dc0dc6c8e5efe9ce307a0.png

Radiant Wukong1 votes

What are those cropped pictures proving? What am I supposed to be looking at, exactly? You were gold last season and you're plat 2 this season in solo. I don't care if you're diamond with your team. My 1st account was permanently B5, I sure the link to the post I made showing my having win streaks with only 1 - 3 losses per 20 games. Got me to S4 from B5 with over 400 games played. But my ranked team was D1 before I joined them. So I could show off all the matches I played with the team and say I'm D1, but I prefer my solo queue stats.

nm10101 votes

Are you really going to make me zoom out.................................

https://i.gyazo.com/392fdefcdeaeb869c59a699fb25404fb.png

https://i.gyazo.com/a1d2bc88d82fdd6eae9ba4a140866aaa.png

Shoot if you had FEK you'd see the diamond forum badge

https://i.gyazo.com/a4f255479f00982448e63be001b13ab8.png

Forgot the main client too

https://i.gyazo.com/4425335d2602dbb38570835b6655b58f.png

Radiant Wukong1 votes

Lifetime goldie that got boosted this season lol nice [slayer-jinx-wink]

nm10101 votes

Now we are back to the generic insults :P I mean someone literally made a thread about gameplay calling diamonds boosted when they disagree with them on GD 3 hours ago (it got deleted for name and shame).

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

Huh, I've played with Crows Before Hoes several times recently.

Small community.

nm10101 votes

He was a pretty cool dude, I saw him play on singed420's stream a few days after that I think too.

Ralanr2 votes

Especially when three people build them...

SanD451 votes

I bought item 3071 as first item as Kled vs Darius. I didnt feel the effect somehow. Anyway thx.

Radiant Wukong1 votes

If you don't have lethality, then you shouldn't.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

Hi I am unranked and mostly I play with silver 3-1. I like adc the most but I like to play other role too. I have problem with top lane, because most tanks are top laners and I found them much better and OP then other roles. Especially Camille , Darius , Garen .

in case anyone ever wonders, why many adc mains piss me off or what im referring to when im saying theyre whiney and entitled.

this is the type of post im talking about.

about 70% of just the ranked player base of this game is playing in bronze 5 to gold 5. most of the adc mains playing there have exactly this view on game balance, and an appropriate amount of them keeps making post like these on a regular basis.

SanD451 votes

First off, I am not adc main. I mostly play Lol with friend who mains support role so picking adc is the best choice. I really don't like when someone say I "main" something because I try to keep same play rate at every role. At second, if you don't like this type of post just try to help me out and I will shut the fck up about this topic. All I just said is that I can't counter juggernauts.

Alex h87212 votes

"Garen is tank w/ high mobility"

LOL he has one MS steroid in his kit which has counterplay, and is arguably one of the most kiteable champs.

You want to talk about tanky w/ high mobility? Take a look at Hecarim centaur ass. Lololol.

Edit: also you are saying Camille killed you when you were Ezreal /Kalista , well yeah you are not likely to win that matchup 1v1, she is a diver and is meant to be able to kill an adc. However if you have a Braum or Nautilus peeling them you ought to wreck them.

SanD451 votes

whats the counterplay against Garen ? How can I be faster then him, as Kled? I tried to kite him with Kalista but he get me even when I just ran straight away. and at second, it was 5v5 fight where Camille one shotted me and thresh wasnt right next to me to quick E and his Q is too slow. And one more thing. percentage, Camille has the same damage as ADCs, but her survivability is twice as bigger then ADCs. This is the problem I have.

JhomasTefferson2 votes

Adcs are broken. Unless they have built in armor like rammus or malphite, along with a shield, most tanks get destroyed in a 1v1 by adcs. Their damage needs to be toned back as a class so tanks can tank.

SanD451 votes

most tanks get destroyed in 1v1 by adcs.

That's the part Where I have problem. As ADC I relly on my damage and I always keep in mind I am squishy target. Problem is that tanks deal same amount of damage but they can also take twice as more damage. survivability of Braum + damage of Caitlyn = Garen

DarkPh0enix2 votes

Garen is NOT A FUCKING TANK. But the funniest part was the "high mobility". Nice joke.

SanD451 votes

If garen is not a tank. Why he is so tanky?

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

Tanks (i.e. Maokai, Nautilus, Amumu) are primarily threats due to their utility (i.e. CC, damage reduction, protection).

Fighters (i.e. Garen, Darius) are primarily threats due to their damage.

Both classes can be rather durable.

Seriously, read the link I included with my initial post. It is a rather basic description of how Riot categorizes champions.

SanD451 votes

I read it and if I understand that, juggernauts are tanks, that deal damage and marksmen are juggernauts, without that durability but with ranged attacks. So if juggernaut hit you with his ability that he rely on to get you to close range, you are already dead cuz they deal tons of burst that adc cannot survive. This is what is happening in my games I played as ADC. Am getting tired of being one shotted, too slow and having low damage so it's impossible to kite enemy. I really like ADC role, I love early game where I get 6/0 but then I am focused and I am not able to use single ability and my score gets to 7/10. I also like kled but he seems to be juggernaut at early game only, then he is only tank and his damage disapear.

EndlessSorcerer3 votes

I read it and if I understand that, juggernauts are tanks, that deal damage and marksmen are juggernauts, without that durability but with ranged attacks.

I don't know how you managed to misunderstand it that badly, but it is rather impressive.

Juggernauts are fighters who trade utility and mobility for damage and durability.

If a melee-ranged low-mobility champion managed to reach you during a teamfight that easily, you and your team have horribly screwed up at some point.

Stand behind your back-line and near your support so they can prevent him from reaching you and peel him off of you.

If you want to learn how to handle them, play them.

Pay attention to when you feel useless/limited, how the enemy team handles you and how you work around those limitations.

SanD451 votes

And how can I kill juggernaut with some other melee champ like skirmishers or divers? Anyway thank you, you helped a lot.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

During the laning phase, pick your fights wisely and take advantage of their cooldowns and the minion wave.

Afterwards, either take advantage of an advantage you have (i.e. items, levels, kit), out-number them or let your back-line kill them while they get peeled and kited.

SanD451 votes

Darius doesnt need to his abilities, I succesfully dodge his E and Q but he still delt more damage through AA and W. Anyway thank you very much. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Dreadlocks1 votes

What does that make j4 then? Riot primary lists him as a tank, secondary fighter. So what is he? He is a threat for both damage and utility depending what you build. ^^

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

who do you play and what do you even do to try and deal with them

SaifUAE1 votes

ur right RIOT nerfed all the roles and all the kind of champs except tanks they need to nerf them or buff ADC and mages. If ADC got fed u can ez kill him but if tank u just need to RIP.

LemurMonster1 votes

[deleted]

LemurMonster1 votes

{quoted}

This guy is right... though you pick the wrong champs as a example. They are highly cheesy with such bullshit Ap scaling on there CC. They got way to much stats for the damage they do. it's downright unfair.

What in there right mind thought it was a good idea on putting a keystone with a HP scaling shield for them?

Crap.. double post this...

SanD451 votes

I read an article about classes and subclasses. But I still have problem with these guys. As I said before, Darius don't need to hit Q to deal demage, every melee champion I play is pretty useless because his AA are more powerfull then my full combo. Kiting Illaoi is much more easier then kite Garen because his speed boost is incredible and if we outnumber him, he can just right click to base and we cannot deal such amount of damage to put him down. Thats also reason why I had to roam as Jayce, when I ganked mid or bot, my boosted Q dealt pretty good damage just like it normally does. But when I hit garen I didnt even feel the boost, his passive regenerate it in seconds and when I tried to AA him, he just Q and I had no escape.

MtnDewsh1 votes

Imo, if you build tank, you shouldnt be doing much damage. Garen can build straight tank (no black cleaver) and still do a good amount of damage. So stupid.

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