Assassin Rework Discussion

Noxian Beefcake·Oct 20, 2016·1 votes·1,368 views

Well while we all can agree that the assassin rework is generally a great thing. There seems to be one other thing most people seem to agree on about it.... Rengar's new kit.

First the GOOD! - The camouflage/invisibility mechanics. The dash on his Q! The CC shedding on his W and reduction of incoming CC. The improved time spent camouflaged with his Ultimate(R).

And now.... THE BAD!.. - Unseen Predator - Ferocity... Lets face it... Rengar mains can agree that him losing his ferocity after just 4 seconds period really sets him back and forces him to fight and STAY in fights just to gain his enhanced abilities. As an assassin being forced to stay in fights isn't the best... for an assassin... AT ALL. Requiring 5 ferocity stacks is just all around a better idea if that means keeping his ferocity. The only thing that will even give Rengar the ability to stay in those fights to keep the ferocity stacks or even be able to build them for a fight, the very same fight ONLY, given how fast he loses his stacks is the immediate removal of CC with his Battle Roar. An enhanced Battle Roar at that. That means he would have to start a fight and stay in a fight leaving him with his only option to use his enhanced Battle Roar to stay in that fight just to keep his ferocity... the ferocity he just used... to cancel CC and giving him a short duration of immunity to CC. And if successfully able to stack his ferocity again that will be his ONLY window in fights to use any of his other enhanced abilities, if he can even manage to stay in that fight to stack his ferocity. Of course all this is only if the CC lands on Rengar... And lets face it, any champ with CC and stuns knows to focus Rengar. And I am a Rengar main. I can TESTIFY to the fact Rengar's are a top priority to focus with CC in team fights... This SMALL change to his ferocity(losing his 4 stacks of ferocity after 4 seconds) leaves him with a MASSIVE hole in his game play and limits his options in fights HARDCORE. Unless of course the enemy team has no slows or stuns... And let's face it. That just does NOT happen. Making his only viable role... top lane... given that there isn't many stuns in top lane champs. Of course there is still a fair number of champs that can be played in top lane with sufficient CC leaving him unable to use many of his enhanced abilities... Like his enhanced savagery... the one that kills... And I say it will be his only viable role because nearly every mid, jungle, adc and supports that are mained right now, and let's face it a fair amount of champs in all those roles, have a decent amount of CC still. Q - Savagery - The SMALL dash on his Q. Perhaps a change to consider would be to make the Enhanced Savagery dash a longer dash? W - Battle Roar - His heal only being able to heal SOME of the damage dealt in the last 1.5 seconds. Perhaps a change to consider is... His previous Battle Roar... You know the one, before this assassin change...

Better Reworks! - I think I only need one rework here in this assassin update to make my point here. Kha'zix's Rework.... Specifically the evolution of his ult... Giving him the ability to become invisible upon entering and/or leaving a bush. And I say and or because if you sit in the bush for 1.5 seconds it cancels and resets somewhat 5 seconds later making him invisible again. Of course this also gives him the bonus damage from his passive Unseen Threat.

16 Comments

BananaSlayerAMOOct 20, 20162 votes

Riot has intended for assassins to stay in fights longer, because the 'one-shots' that are happening right now just happen too quickly and don't have enough counterplay. Tbh, It was a problem that Rengar could leap right into the middle of a fight and kill a squishy in the space of one second.

So it's not a problem that Rengar is susceptible to CC now, because that makes him just like any other champion.

Noxian BeefcakeOct 20, 20161 votes

OK, but you are missing the whole point. For Rengar to even be able to stay in the fights he need his enhanced Battle Roar. That can't happen at all unless he can STAY in a fight or rengage a fight within the space of 3 seconds. And with all the slows and stuns all the champs have nowadays him losing his ferocity is counter intuitive to him needing it to pop his Enhanced Battle Roar to stay in fights just go gain more ferocity to use his other Enhanced abilities. Rengar has always been susceptible to CC and counter play. The exclamation the appears when he is a good distance a way. And pink wards... They WERE a thing and if you were a smart player you could always fight a rengar. The problem is now his Enhanced abilities are pretty much only going to be useful to farm minions or monsters. And you commenting that his sarcasm was called for because all you two seen was, as you put it, an essay of a rant, just shows you two don't really know what rengar was before this change and don't know what he is going to be. PBE access, try him out. I did and his ferocity decay is a major hole. It wasn't a rant at all. But a viable point to a major hole in his soon to be game play... As I had said in the last comment of mine. If you are just going to see this as a "Rant of an Essay", as you put it, move on. It's not a rant at all. insert definition of discussion here

BananaSlayerAMOOct 20, 20161 votes

It's not too much to ask a decent Rengar to use his combo THEN cast an empowered ability. He can use his enhanced battle roar to get out of a fight; he just needs to go through one rotation of his abilities first. One of main factors that contributed to the undesirable 'one shot' was the fact that he could come into a fight with an empowered ability, use his skills, then use another one.

The 'counterplay' of CC is something that applies to every champion - if you let the enemy land their CC on you then escape, you have just been outplayed. Pink wards aren't the counterplay to Rengar; if the enemy had the foresight to buy a pink ward and put it down before the Rengar arrived, then they could have just as easily walked out of danger. A Rengar that can't surprise people is not a Rengar that deserves the kill.

As I said earlier, shorter and more meaningful sentences (which can include things like sarcasm) can get the point across more efficiently than a comment the length of an essay. Btw, sarcasm is NOT usually passive-aggressive as it directly shows an opposing point rather than hiding behind ambiguity.

Noxian BeefcakeOct 21, 20161 votes

READ ALL OF THIS CAREFULLY AND READ SECTION OF DEFINITION OF AMBIGUITY FIRST SO AS TO UNDERSTAND THE INTENTION OF THIS WHOLE POST AND THIS COMMENT

All I need to say to this is you clearly have not read everything that was said having to due about Rengar. Take the time to reread everything. You probably skipped a few lines now and then. And the fact you seen this as, yet again, an essay of a rant, shows you just don't have what it takes to be apart of a proper discussion. And had you actually said something half way decent and intelligent proving other points about his kit working in better or other ways would have been acceptable. But you opted to the sarcastic comment of the general idea about what people think Rengar actually is... A champ that nukes carries. Instead of actually using a halfway decent thought out comment proving these things wrong. Seriously, take the time out to read everything said in this discussion, and you'll see that all you managed to do is reiterate some of the things I already said in this remark of a 'comment.'

I'll do this one for you. Definition of Ambiguity - doubtfulness or uncertainty of meaning or intention. You continuously seem to think that my original post was nothing but a "Rant of an Essay." It was nothing of the sort. You only argue again and again that it was only that.

Again I will do this one for you. Definition of Discussion an act or instance of discussing; consideration or examination by argument, comment, etc., especially to explore solutions; informal debate. You clearly have not read everything I have said or you did and your only point is to argue saying things I have already said.(reread section of pink wards, and so I don't have to spell everything out for you as to how they work with his previous kit and how it WILL work with the new changes, consider all the interactions the pink wards did for and against a Rengar.) I am going to assume, until I see a decent reply from you, that your only point here is to argue for the sake of arguing...

BananaSlayerAMOOct 21, 20161 votes

I haven't just been 'reiterating what you said'; I've been telling you which parts of what you said were inaccurate or illogical. So what if half of my comments have been arguments about your comments? Of course I'm going to respond if you say that I don't understand the game, I don't belong in this discussion, or that my replies aren't 'decent' (<-- that was what you implied, which is actual ambiguity, see?).

I'm not arguing because of the sake of it, I'm arguing because you said comments like the ones mentioned above that weren't necessary. In fact, you are probably the one arguing for the sake of it - constantly adding new topics to talk about, randomly defining 'ambiguity' and 'discussion' like they add anything meaningful to your comment. So yes, we can agree that everything you've been saying so far fits under 'discussion', but YOU missed MY points that shorter comments are often more effective than very long ones, and that sarcasm itself is neither 'passive-aggressive' nor 'reportable'.

I am done with pointing out your errors, and you trying to do the same; since no one else but us is here I'm just ending this discussion. You might have noticed I didn't say a single thing about Rengar in this, because that's something that we'll just always hold different opinions on.

Elite4RunnerOct 20, 20161 votes

item 3139 item 3111 item 2138 The Swiftness Mastery, The new item, Edge of Night,

He can even get away with buying item 3102

Yeah, he certainly has options to avoid CC.

As for his Ferocity, he doesn't need to maintain it. The fact that he can maintain it currently is exactly what makes it so easy for him to jump out of a bush with 4 stacks, Q, then Empowered Q, Tiamat, and pretty much 1 shot ADCs.

This way he has to jump into combat, which grants him his first stack, then use 3 more abilities before he is able to use an empowered ability.

There is a pretty good chance this will be enough to kill squishies, especially if you jump in when they are low. You really shouldn't need to continue to fight. Either use your Roar, or one of your items, or just deal with the CC and have enough health, resistances, and sustain to keep fighting long enough to get more kills or get out. Get to a bush, wait for cooldowns, repeat.

datfatguyOct 20, 20161 votes

Seriously just leave Rengar the way he was I mean whats unbalanced about being able to go invisible and then delete the enemy ADC from the game without them having any counterplay at all and you can just get out of there so easily?? That is one of the most balanced things in the game I honestly don't even know why Riot need to get rid of that R.I.P Rengar .

Noxian BeefcakeOct 20, 20161 votes

Let me just say that it kinda seems like you are just mocking this post with that passive aggressive trend people get banned in games for. If that was your purpose of this comment, keep them to yourselves. And this goes for everyone. If you don't have anything decent to say or to prove the things said about this rengar rework just keep it to yourselves. If that was not your purpose then I apologize. Anyhow that's one of the good things about this change on Rengar. You can now fight him... It's just his passive seriously hurts his whole game play now. Losing his ferocity completely after 4 seconds just completely shuts down all the things he can and should be able to do. You can gain ferocity now without having to damage anyone. But that only occurs IN combat... Morg stun? What Rengar? Leo combo? Rengar doesn't exist in this fight. Slows? AoE slows? Force Rengar to lose his ferocity and then fight him. He won't be anything compared to if you let him stay in a fight and pop his combos and gain ferocity. His new kit pretty much forces him to play around building ferocity in fights just to use his enhanced Battle Roar to stay in a fight and do what an assassin should do. If you look at ALL the meta champs and just really anyone with slows and stuns is a counter to rengar and snuffing his enhanced abilities. I encountered this problem so many times in just a PBE Custom match... with bots. One morg stun, cait traps, jinx traps, kennens passive stun ability. Maybe the only things that might work for him are the taunts, but even then it only sticks around if you are auto attacking or popping spells IN combat. And If you can't tell, the only MAJOR hole in this new kit is his passive. It's the ONE thing I really focused on. Not being able to engage a fight anymore without that awesome stun, just a weak slow, or the epic opening from his enhanced Q kinda hurts his game play.

BananaSlayerAMOOct 20, 20161 votes

It's not passive aggressive tho, just sarcasm - which is usually not offensive enough to be reportable, and kinda gets the point across better than an essay of a rant :P

Noxian BeefcakeOct 20, 20161 votes

and btw, sarcasm, in this use.... is considered passive aggressive. context of the English language is massive

WarkingeOct 20, 20161 votes

And the fact that we will have in a side the guys who are gonna play tank rengar and the other side the Rengar that has "Counter play" when he is assassin played and the fact that his not even gonna link one of his abillities. I dont know if u played on pbe but just with a normal move speed you can dodge his Q when casted on jump. And then came his new ferosity system who looks like a bruiser/tank then an assassin. The w who get off the Cc's is for me kinda how i'm supposed to use it, i can use only one empowred spell, So i'm supposed to kill with 3 spells that all can be dodged with a flash and then Empwrd W to escaip. Seems easy !

On the other side his "Ult" who's just like a new bullshit, It's just a Q of twich with a lot of Cd and a Crit on the only champion u can see with R, and the fact that it's not anymore and escaip spell or an outplay spell as now in Cac every one can see you. I feel like Rengar got Reaped in this preseason unlike ohter reworks who are just awesome with a lot of jukes (Lb) a lot of cool effects (Talon) A lot of mobility (Kata) and then we got a useless Cat an assassin with the spell his gonna max be like more usefull to wave clear rather then to kill.

All of that looks cool. I'v nothing more to say then R.I.P.

Noxian BeefcakeOct 21, 20161 votes

The people who commented on this, for the most part, are clearly not rengar mains. They will understand though when his new kit is released, just what kind of a set back him losing his ferocity as quickly as he does, will set his combos back. I've got PBE access. And as I have said for the most part his kit is great now.... The only mechanic that is going to set this new kit back is him losing his ferocity after only 4... fucking... seconds. It's THE one thing I really focused on. And it sets the whole purpose of his kit back majorly. And that's what I was trying to point out, is in a fight he is only going to have one option in a fight to use his empowered abilities. most will opt to use this roar now as it lets him stay in a fight or run from the fight. The only way he is really going to be able to shine is in full on 1 v 1. Sure his roar gives him immunity to CC for a short time. But even maintaining his ferocity to be able to even use his empowered roar to last in team fights is going to be a major change in his game play. Most of the fights worked out one of two ways. Fight to get 4 stacks and pop roar to stay in the fight, and or run. Or fight to get 4 stacks to use one of your empowered abilities, if you can even manage it with all the CC that now exists in league. If people properly focus rengar in fights, which as a rengar main happens a lot, with CCing him maintaining his ferocity is going to be a major challenge. And if he opts to use his other empowered abilities leaves him largely vulnerable to CC. Small changes to this can help though. Make certain empowered abilities cost a certain amount of ferocity with a larger ferocity pool, if you will and/or making him lose his ferocity stacks one at a time over a longer period instead of all stacks gone at once in 4 seconds. All stacks are gone by the time you reach your next camp, and all stacks gone by the time the next wave hits your lane.(if playing in a lane)

datfatguyOct 22, 20161 votes

Maybe something that Riot should do is make it so Rengar doesn't lose ferocity stacks while he is in his ulti. I still want to be able to delete the enemy ADC but having no ferocity will make it a little too hard. This could ruin the whole 'counterplay' part but at least now the sht that Rengar will throw at you can be dodged.

ErockandrollOct 20, 20161 votes

Am I the only one here, who preferred to Play Rengar's high CDR fighter off build?

But with that build in mind, I think the Rework kit would actually work. With a higher CDR build, you pull off his spell rotations more quickly, splash a little tankyness and/or sustain, and you end up with someone who can stay in the fight. And with his kit reworked, it takes fewer spells to proc his empowered abilities, and he can stack his ferocity more reliably.

AtajoOct 21, 20161 votes

I come at this as a support main, who's life's work in games with Rengar is preventing knifecat from insta-gibbing my carry. Haven't played enough reasonably even games against Rengar on PBE yet, so it's hard to tell exact balance yet. On the other hand, feel-wise Rengar has changed quite a bit.

Essentially, Riot has removed the flash/ult jump and insta-gib. According to their stated rationale, this is non-negotiable and all of the assassins are losing the insta-gib unless ridiculously fed. Sorry if you liked it, it's dead. It's been replaced.

New burst game plan is as follows: Find way to engage via leap, ult or just brush. Use all 3 basic abilities to stack Ferocity, then empowered Q for 2.4 bonus AD ratio to complete. Assuming you can't burst, or situation looks grim: W to remove CC and bail, or E to root and stall for teammates/jukes. He's not that much more susceptible to CC than before, since he has a mini-Olaf ult and burst prevention in the prolonged fight, and supports like Janna and Alistar could always deny the bursty engage with proper setup.

In any case, complaining about a nerfed outnumbered case is kind of missing the point. You almost always want to one of two things: 1) set up the case where you have more backup from your team than the target does, and empowered E hasn't changed at all. Jump, fight, root, and your team deletes that poor caught out sap. 2) Flank someone who's distracted and has already used spells. An Alistar who just Flash+Q engaged on your Darius (e.g.) is a bit far away to peel for his Jinx (e.g.).

Reborn8uNov 21, 20161 votes

I've been having a terrible time since the rework. I main support and the game isn't fun anymore. Rengar, Zed, Talon, Khazix, le blanc, katarina, I can't stop them from getting to the adc, I cant stop them from getting to me. I can't stop them from killing either, sometimes both of us, It's so hard to play a non tank support now. Even the tank supports with tons of cc feel useless when rengar or talon cloak, fly across the screen, and erase your adc. Supports need rework, THEY NEED ESCAPES. I'm so tired of being the target for endless ganks from jungle and mid assasins, and then getting bitched at by my team, WHEN I LITERALLY HAD NO WAY TO SAVE MYSELF.

Lets be realistic, you could give ANY CHAMP that much damage and they'd be good. The whole assassin class is arbitrary, they are way to hard to put any damage on because they skip around the screen, they ignore turrets and cc because of it, and their isn't good counter play even when you see them coming a mile away. You wonder why it takes so long to get a game, because playing support is some aids/cancer right now.