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Rod of Ages is now statistically bad on Cho'Gath?

Zarvanis··3 votes·3,630 views

EDIT: After much discussion, I've determined Rod of Ages item 3027 is still a great item for Cho'GathChogath. The statistics I was going by were rather misleading, and after further research, I realize that I was mistaken in my assumptions.

Here are some new statistics that were brought to my attention. http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items/chogath/top/diamond http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items/chogath/middle/diamond

Please disregard the rest of this post.

Looking over the last month of Mid and Top Cho'Gath Chogath games on ProBuilds shows that most people who buy Rod of Agesitem 3027 either goes even or gets wrecked (Emphasis on "most"). Unless he's SUPPOSED to go 3/11/12 and no one told me. RoA is one of the only 'tank' items being build for the most part, and everything else is full AP.

http://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/Chogath (browse over the list of games)

I know that there are an unquantifiable number of factors to consider as to WHY this happens, but I personally feel that there are enough cases to show RoA might not be the best pick anymore. If I had to guess, the main reason is likely that Cho is getting his ass kicked before RoA finishes it's 10 minute scaling. So by the time it's done, it's too late.

Most of the games where he stomps (not including jungle) seem to start with Luden's Echoitem 3285 or Abyssal Scepteritem 3001.

Cho'Gath is one of my favorite champs (one of the only four I have Mastery 5 with), but I'm a bit unsure of what to build on him now.

I now anticipate a slew of thumbs down from people calling me a Silver-noob who doesn't know what he's talking about.

EDIT: I realize I worded this poorly. I'm not saying RoA is a bad item. Just that it might not be good on Cho'Gath.

44 Comments

MisterHealYoGirl3 votes

If I had to guess, I'd say that the correlation goes the other way: if you're confident enough in your lane matchup and skill level to go full AP (Echo or Morello first), you're more likely to win, simply because you're probably in a good matchup or better than your opponent. RoA is a more defensive/sustain pick, built more in losing matchups for Cho'Gath.

Zarvanis1 votes

I was thinking about that, but there were just so many games shown where he was constantly dying that I wasn't entirely sure about it. In low ELO games where most people don't know how to be aggressive enough, RoA could probably work. But apparently not in Challenger (unless you're Faker).

MisterHealYoGirl1 votes

I mean, my policy tends to be 'what happens in Challenger stays in Challenger'. Rod of Ages is still a great item, and it has a lot of synergy with Cho'Gath.

Zarvanis1 votes

I suppose so. I'm just really hesitant to try things when there could be a clearly superior choice. I'm not a fan of taking risks. Which is why I'll probably never get any higher than Gold, maybe.

MisterHealYoGirl1 votes

This http://www.elophant.com/league-of-legends/champion/chogath/items rates Rod of Ages as the item that helps Cho'Gath the most, statistically. It doesn't offer anything more than that.

Zarvanis1 votes

Are there any site that show item effectiveness based on Ranked tiers? Elophant shows based on Platinum+, so it's possible Tank'Gath is significantly more popular in Plat than Diamond or Challenger.

MisterHealYoGirl1 votes

I don't know. I really wish Riot would make the data that they use public, but that's just a pipe dream.

LostFr0st2 votes

I'm not seeing the bad ROA bit... a different site gives completely different info: http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items/chogath/top/all [slayer-jinx-wink]

Zarvanis1 votes

Maybe Luden'Gath is just a thing in Challenger and Diamond I.

It's inconsistent statistics across multiple sites that makes me not want to play this game because I'm so unsure about what to build. Especially with AP items being so expensive.

LostFr0st1 votes

Nah, Diamond+ still has ROA. I messed up the ELO filter*[zombie-brand-facepalm]* : http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items/chogath/top/diamond

Zarvanis1 votes

Click "see more" on the core items.

item 3285 >item 3116 >item 3110 66.7% win rate.

Of course, the "popularity" of it is a factor (Veigar has a 100% win rate with Armor Pen. Marks for some reason)

LostFr0st1 votes

same asitem 3027 >item 3001 >item 3116 66.7% win rate.

The only thing luden's gives him is movespeed to catch people easier and for positioning. Doen's mean ROA is bad, it just means they are equally viable. Luden's is probably for pushing your opponent out of lane whereas ROA is for sitting with them idk.

Rofl, I just changed the filter to mid; completely new bag of worms: http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items/chogath/middle/diamond

Spoofghoul3 votes

someone apparently forgot to swap their runepage and won that veigar game ^^

Hayaishi21 votes

RoA is never bad, can buy that thing on everyone feel no difference. Broken item.

Zarvanis3 votes

Really? Everyone? Garen Aatrox Renekton Riven Zed Talon You sure about that?

TheI3igDaddy1 votes

Technically Aatrox has AP ratios.

Zarvanis1 votes

I was debating if I should put him there. There were a lot of others I was originally going to show, but decided against it for one reason or another.

TheI3igDaddy1 votes

Well I haven't played in Season 6 so I'm not the best source of opinion.

I was a Cho main back in season 4 and 5, and RoA was always my go to item. Even after the health nerfs, I still love it because it makes his lane sustain even more ridiculous, as well as giving him mana to cast more spells and AP to make those spells hurt.

This makes you immovable in lane against quite a number of matchups; in those that I'd have trouble with, I might end up picking Frozen Heart first (since most of Cho's counters are AD duelists).

I would pick RoA generally for Top OR Mid because I like how it gives him additional bulk even when he's in mid and building mostly AP. I personally dislike Luden's on Cho because back when I played him (I don't know if they changed it), his Vorpal Spikes don't proc its passive, and I'd rather use that money for Deathcap because his raw AP ratios are sexy.

Zarvanis1 votes

Vorpal Spikes DO proc Luden's, now. With the current meta being reliant almost entirely on snowballing and ending the game in 25 minutes, Luden's seems like the better pick in many scenarios.

KillerKell1 votes

The great thing about RoA is that for 10 consecutive minutes, you keep getting stronger.

So every minute that passes that your Opponent doesn't Back and Buy is another minute you out class him.

Vistha Kai1 votes

The thing is they changed RoA from "AP/HP/mana" to "AP/mana/HP".

Well, basically every AP/HP item got HP nerfs... except Liandry's which is nearly as good in raw stats as Rylai's.

LadyRenly1 votes

If you build roa, you should probably build full tank afterwards

Skia Asteri1 votes

When an item is built on a champion as frequently as RoA is on Cho'gath, the statistics of their success with that item says more about the state of the champion than the item.

Zarvanis1 votes

I mentioned this in another reply, but I worded the post rather poorly. I wasn't saying RoA is a bad item, just that it may or may not be the best item for Cho.

Titanium701 votes

How do I put this?

A stacked RoA is one of the best AP Items we have. That's why it is not BAD no matter on which champ you're buying it.

BUT: RoA has NEVER been good on Cho, a trap actually!

Cho has a high synergy with additional resistances. Getting HP on a champ that does not scale with HP while generating a lot of it him selfe is not good. Just like you dont want to stack health with a Soraka in your Team.

ATM: I'd buy RoA, 120 AP at max is great and its passive is strong in Lane. I guess there are some AD-Matchups I'd swap RoA with Frozen Heart.

Zarvanis1 votes

I think I worded my post poorly. I never said Rod of Ages is a bad item. I'm just saying that according to ProBuilds, it doesn't work out well ON CHO'GATH very often. That is of course not factoring in the endless potential variables that could influence why it fails so often. But apparently other site show that statistically, RoA IS the best item to get first.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

Build whatever you want.

Zarvanis1 votes

Winning is my #1 priority at all times. I'm not going to build something if it isn't the most optimal possible item I could be building at that time. It's why I play so few games and spend hours reading builds. Because I don't know what I should be building. The inability to enjoy myself if I'm not winning is a miserable existence, but I suck it up and keep going.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

That's called being a sheep. Tis frowned upon.

Zarvanis1 votes

I'd chalk it up more to my superiority complex. I know I have one, and I try to live with it despite how frustrating it is.

KillerKell1 votes

"Most Optimal Item"?

Doesn't that depend on how you play a Champion?

How you play Zed and how I play Zed could lead to completely different Builds, for instance (and Runes, and Mastery).

Zarvanis1 votes

I never said there was only one build path. I'm saying that I need to know every item to build for every situation so I can be as dynamic and effective as possible. While there are obviously people who prefer one play-style over another, I prefer to be prepared to use ALL of them. That's largely why my Champion Puddle is so small. Obtaining a wide knowledge of builds and strategies for several champions is hard for a crap player such as myself.

delonix1 votes

Probuilds is deceptive, especially for low popularity champions like Cho'gath. If you are looking at games from more than a month ago, the meta may have already changed to make what happened in those games irrelevant.

If you want to keep playing Cho'gath, my advice would be continue to build RoA. It is still good on Cho'gath. Even if you are right about Luden's or Abyssal being better in Challenger, RoA is still good in silver and in gold. Neither build gives a clear advantage over the other; they have different strengths and weaknesses.

If winning really is your top priority though, you might want to just switch to a champ with a better place in the meta. Garen, Singed, and Nasus are all quite strong top lane. Vel'koz, Lux, and Anivia are all quite strong mid lane.

Zarvanis1 votes

I'll keep that in mind, but everytime I try to learn a new champion (Ahri Gangplank Lissandra Poppy Thresh Tristana Nasus LuxLeblanc MasterYi Sona ) I either get bored with them really fast or lose horribly (2/11/10Nasus) then go back to my "Champion Puddle" (Veigar Rumble Chogath Lulu). I can play Garen andMonkeyKing if I absolutely have to, but there's no way I can bring them out in Ranked.

Squidsmastah1 votes

I just prefer to build this:

item 3116 item 3151 item 3001 item 3135 item 3053 item 3020 item 2139

A lot of magic pen and Steraks so I have more than just my raw health pool to defend me in a fight.

Zarvanis1 votes

I've seen these in a fair number of builds. Except Sterak's, that one's an odd pick.

AsphodelNext1 votes

In the pro scene right now, not that many people play Cho. On ProBuilds, he was played in only 12 games in the past month, and 3 of those were definitely not Summoner's Rift; that's only 6 games with RoA and 3 without. So I don't think there are quite enough cases to justify saying anything, unless you want to draw data from across patches.

Another thing is that Luden's gets built way more on Cho'gath mid, which is a completely different role than Cho'gath top. So, it could just be other top laners are a lot stronger right now (Fiora, GP, etc.) and mid Cho'gath just wins more than top Cho'gath no matter how he builds.

Also, looked just now and Lemonnation played Cho'gath on Twisted Treeline or something, he has the wrong kind of Deathcap and trinket. So your stats might also be skewed by people playing him on other maps, with a faster pace where RoA is much worse.

Lyless1 votes

so is it ruined or not? I guess they want to ruin CHO now too?

Zarvanis1 votes

After reading up on it more and thinking about it for a while, it seems you need to be a lot more dynamic about it that I at first thought. Probuilds is apparently somewhat misleading, as I've read several other statistics that show RoA is a perfectly fine pick on Cho'Gath. It's just that if you want to be aggressive and force your opponent out of lane early, Luden's is the better option. Otherwise, RoA does seem to be the better pick.

Mystic Buttthole1 votes

I've been rushing RoA and have been having great success as top Cho.

KillerKell1 votes

My last Cho'Gath Build was:

Rod of Ages Frozen Heart Merc Treads: Alacrity Zhonya's Banshee's Rylia's (not in that order).

I tend to go RoA to Rylia's, upgrade Boots to what ever I need after.

Frozen Heart was an attempt to slow down the Enemy Kalista. Zhonya's was for the Zed. Banshee's was for the Brand Ult, Thresh Hook and the stun portion of Pantheon's Ult.

ROA gets me tanky with Mana, and Rylia's allows my Vorpal Blades to Slow for 0 Mana. A 0 Mana Ranged AoE Slow... I love it.

DorkunedAuras1 votes

Pantheon's ult doesn't stun. It has no CC at all associated with it.

KillerKell1 votes

Pantheon gathers his strength and then leaps high into the air, crashing down at the target area a few seconds later. Deals up to 400/700/1000 (+1*AP) magic damage to units at the center (down to 50% at the edge) and slows their Movement Speed by 35% for 1 second.

I thought it stunned at the middle, that's probably just Panth landing his stun if he lands right on top of you (W)... but it does have a Slow, which is a Soft CC.

Banshee's keeps you from taking the 35% Slow, making it easier to escape.

DorkunedAuras1 votes

i really thought it didn't have any CC at all. In my defense, that slow is fairly insubstantial.

you're right though.

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