Yasuo

meepsson·May 13, 2019·54 votes·14,985 views

Why havent we seen a real rework on yasuo yet? He clearly needs one. He is the one champ that no matter what will be stong AF early and midgame. Riot needs to focus on yasuo since he brings down the game. Or am i the only one that thinks this?

100 Comments

420 gramsMay 13, 201935 votes

Riots official stance that I've seen is that China calls him Happy Windman so he's balanced and fair to play as/with/against

Shrek LuigiMay 15, 20191 votes

happy windman is a much better name, I stand with China on this one

9mm ValentineMay 14, 201916 votes

Seriously! Why haven't we, riot? You were so quick to remove shit from Irelia and Akali's kit, so why not do the same for Yasuo and Riven? Oh right, they're immune.

Icy Hot ShotoMay 14, 20196 votes

Because CertainlyT doesn't want his champion designs touched by anyone that isn't him. And we all know CT has no clue how balance works.

SaezioMay 14, 20191 votes

Just saying, all his champions are balanced, you just need to be a proplayer of the highest level in a pro team to realise. Also, CT has no power over the balance team lol.

Also, as to why he isn't being reworked, he has a very big player base that want to play him. Not a single one of the reworked champions has had even the 1/5th of yasuo's popularity. Finally, he isn't a competitive problem at all.

Sebastit7dMay 14, 20191 votes

Also, as to why he isn't being reworked, he has a very big player base that want to play him. Not a single one of the reworked champions has had even the 1/5th of yasuo's popularity.

Except that no one in their playerbase can actually play him as he is basically permabanned in every game and the mains themselves want the champion to be changed so he doesn't have a 64% ban rate. Either make him fun for both ends or no one gets to play him. simple as that.

SaezioMay 14, 20191 votes

64% ban rate? xD What elo? I see him at 20% in diamond and masters in 2 sites

Sebastit7dMay 14, 20193 votes

{quoted}

64% ban rate? xD What elo? I see him at 20% in diamond and masters in 2 sites

It actually dropped, he's sitting currently at 50.4% Ban rate across all ranks. according to op.gg and also the fact that you use diamond and masters as your point of view, yknow, less than 1% of the entire game's playerbase shows the kind of opinion you'd have.

The thigh guyMay 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

It actually dropped, he's sitting currently at 50.4% Ban rate across all ranks. according to op.gg and also the fact that you use diamond and masters as your point of view, yknow, less than 1% of the entire game's playerbase shows the kind of opinion you'd have.

He does that a lot. -.- because the top 1% of the playerbase makes the rest completely irrelevant somehow.

SaezioMay 14, 20191 votes

You think you could create an argument if instead of me you were debating with Doublelift? You would tell him his opinion don't matter because most of the playerbase is bad ?

I happen to believe that it is ok for people to be rewarded for getting better at the game. Instead of punished like you seem to believe.

The thigh guyMay 14, 20193 votes

{quoted}

You think you could create an argument if instead of me you were debating with Doublelift? You would tell him his opinion don't matter because most of the playerbase is bad ?

I happen to believe that it is ok for people to be rewarded for getting better at the game. Instead of punished like you seem to believe.

Again. Pro play and average play are not the same. They are completely different things. If you need examples of this look at ryze. Kalista, azir, rek’sai(post conquerer), Elise, gangplank. All champion that were dog shit tier in average play, but GOD tier in pro play. They can’t be compared. And I hate to tell you this. Balancing the game around 200 players instead of the millions of others, is the shittiest decision riot has made.

SaezioMay 14, 20191 votes

You see, there is one fundamental issue with this logic that you use.

Let's say riot balanced around gold, and all champions had a 50% winrate in Gold.

That would mean, the higher you climb past gold the less balanced the champions feel around each other. Does that sound right to you?

I am not talking about asking them their opinion for yas in pro, just their opinion about how the champions state is currently in soloq.

The thigh guyMay 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You see, there is one fundamental issue with this logic that you use.

Let's say riot balanced around gold, and all champions had a 50% winrate in Gold.

That would mean, the higher you climb past gold the less balanced the champions feel around each other. Does that sound right to you?

I am not talking about asking them their opinion for yas in pro, just their opinion about how the champions state is currently in soloq.

The exact opposite could be argued. Something could sit at a 70% winrate in normal play and a 30% for master tier players. Should that stay the same then?

Should under 1% of players dominate how the game is balanced for everyone else?

SaezioMay 14, 20191 votes

First of all, no champion in the rift has ever had 70% winrates in any elo. Unless it was very briefly. So I can't really answer such an extreme scenario.

Also, riot tend to keep the easy champions that are strong in low elo pretty chained. So, you never see them trying to make yi/trynda/yoric/annie to be viable in Pro, cause if they did that, low elo would be hell, and they recognise this, that's why certain champions' winrates plummet the higher you check.

But if a champion is at 50% wr in masters/diamond, I don't think there could ever be reason to nerf/buff them. Change them maybe if their playstyle is too binary or if they are really unpopular or if they are really outdated, sure. But their strength should be at the same level after the changes.

The thigh guyMay 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

First of all, no champion in the rift has ever had 70% winrates in any elo. Unless it was very briefly. So I can't really answer such an extreme scenario.

Also, riot tend to keep the easy champions that are strong in low elo pretty chained. So, you never see them trying to make yi/trynda/yoric/annie to be viable in Pro, cause if they did that, low elo would be hell, and they recognise this, that's why certain champions' winrates plummet the higher you check.

But if a champion is at 50% wr in masters/diamond, I don't think there could ever be reason to nerf/buff them. Change them maybe if their playstyle is too binary or if they are really unpopular or if they are really outdated, sure. But their strength should be at the same level after the changes.

Except that’s not true in the slightest.

Lucien was at a 53% winrate in plat+ and a 53% winrate in low elo and they still buffed him. So clearly performance in high and low elo isn’t the only factor.

Same with yoric. He’s seen a decent amount of pro play since his rework, and he’s a low elo stomper like you said. He wasn’t nerfed for it.

SaezioMay 14, 20191 votes

Yoric was nerfed like less than 6 months ago. As soon as he was seen in pro the pbe already had the nerfs. When did they buff lucian when his wr was 53%? Was that pre-worlds patch last year? I don't think he was at 53% winrate when they buffed him. Could be wrong but I am pretty confident his global winrate in Plat+ was maybe 50,5% at most. Will check though if you can remind me of the patch number.

The thigh guyMay 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Yoric was nerfed like less than 6 months ago. As soon as he was seen in pro the pbe already had the nerfs. When did they buff lucian when his wr was 53%? Was that pre-worlds patch last year? I don't think he was at 53% winrate when they buffed him. Could be wrong but I am pretty confident his global winrate in Plat+ was maybe 50,5% at most. Will check though if you can remind me of the patch number.

He was the best adc at the time by mile. It was when his high noon skin was announced.

SaezioMay 14, 20191 votes

And I am sure Rookie's opinion matters as much as a silver plebs opinion when it comes to champion balance. They both have similar investment in the game.

It shows that the better someone gets at the game the least likely they are to mind yasuo.

BTW akali has 40% ban rate in masters atm.

Sebastit7dMay 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

And I am sure Rookie's opinion matters as much as a silver plebs opinion when it comes to champion balance. They both have similar investment in the game.

It shows that the better someone gets at the game the least likely they are to mind yasuo.

BTW akali has 40% ban rate in masters atm.

See, it's that kind of elitist mentality that kills the game for both sides, the "value" you speak of doesn't change no matter who it is, statistics are what matter. Both sides matter a lot believe it or not as they are both useful in different aspects. When 90% of the playerbase shows low satisfaction rates towards something but the best player of the world doesn't. both sides have to be heard. Sure, Your average silver-goldie may not have the knowledge or skill a pro does, but want it or not they still play the game, and surprise surprise, they all want to ENJOY the game. So why would Riot only listen to what 0.1% of the playerbase say? That makes absolutely no sense.

It's not hard to understand, and i'm not saying they should change every champion to what the populace demand. But Riot's job is to make the game enjoyable to all of their players, yes, even the hardstuck irons. People love to forget this is a GAME, not a society in which the only thing that matters is your rank. Crazy, I know.

SaezioMay 14, 20191 votes

First of all, because we have exchanged numerous messages thus far, I want to thank you for not resorting to insults and for presenting your arguments in a civilised discussion. I also apologise if I have somehow offended you, I never intended to do that.

I never judged someone on their rank. I am saying that I trust the best in something to break it down for me and explain to me what's what, and I value their opinion a million times more, than someone that has way less expertise on the matter. That is my way of viewing it, I am not saying you are wrong 100% I am only saying how I think Riot should balance. Of course people should be having fun in all elos, but wouldn't you say that people should be rewarded with better game quality (and more Fun although that's subjective) as they climb? Wouldn't it be a shame if someone climbing suddenly hit an elo where the champ they climbed with suddenly becomes utterly useless? Wouldn't that be counter intuitive and create more smurfs from hell, that bash low elo?

Sebastit7dMay 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

First of all, because we have exchanged numerous messages thus far, I want to thank you for not resorting to insults and for presenting your arguments in a civilised discussion. I also apologise if I have somehow offended you, I never intended to do that.

I never judged someone on their rank. I am saying that I trust the best in something to break it down for me and explain to me what's what, and I value their opinion a million times more, than someone that has way less expertise on the matter. That is my way of viewing it, I am not saying you are wrong 100% I am only saying how I think Riot should balance. Of course people should be having fun in all elos, but wouldn't you say that people should be rewarded with better game quality (and more Fun although that's subjective) as they climb? Wouldn't it be a shame if someone climbing suddenly hit an elo where the champ they climbed with suddenly becomes utterly useless? Wouldn't that be counter intuitive and create more smurfs from hell, that bash low elo?

I get what you're saying, and don't worry, I'm not offended at all, I am currently Gold 2 and climbing, Nothing great, just part of the big majority. My point may seem very extreme but I would like to make clear that I agree with you to an extent, I agree that people should get rewarded as they get better at the game, that can be seen with champions like Akali, that despite her losing a lot in lower elos because people aren't good enough to use her kit, in high elos she is still considered overpowered and is even getting nerfed for it. Now let's turn towards the opposite side of the spectrum with the infamous Right Clicker himself, MasterYi . He is considered in low elos as one of the most broken champions. In both cases Riot has to compromise the interests of the other parties and work the extra mile so both sides can be happy with the result. The problem comes when a champion like Yasuo is introduced, He has always been infamous for having way too many tools for himself and leaving the counterplay up to the skill of the one facing him. And it's hard to decide what changes may be best since his playerbase is massive. But that's honestly up to riot in the end.

SaezioMay 14, 20191 votes

IMO, yasuo ban rates are so high because of the sheer amount of Yasuo OTPs. Plain and simple. And that happens because he is fun to play, and the more you play the champ the more you enjoy and play it (at least for the majority). I don't think the champion is too strong or too unhealthy. I think Yasuo must be one of the top 3 champs with the most OTP players. So, naturally, when you are not an OTP and you face them, you lose because they know the matchup better. I mean, malza is immensely more unbalanceable and nobody is complaining because you kinda never see him in games.

YboatMay 14, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=9mm Valentine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=25BUOfuk,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-05-14T00:14:02.091+0000)

Seriously! Why haven't we, riot? You were so quick to remove shit from Irelia and Akali's kit, so why not do the same for Yasuo and Riven? Oh right, they're immune.

I think that it has too do with the lack of pro play has and riven see. They are played, just not pick or ban like the other 2.

BKBloxMay 15, 20191 votes

That is because riot would never support communism and care about the masses, so they balance the game for the 0.1% (something something American politics)😉

HammermancerMay 14, 201911 votes

Riot: We've heard you, yasuo passive replaced with: Yasuo now also gains 30% of his max health as bonus true damage on all abilities and auto attacks (Twice for q)

Also he still has the double crit, this is a buff.

and he's no longer bannable, but now multiple players can be yasuo, as many as 5 yasuos on one team, the opposing team isn't allowed to play yasuo

1800NICECLIENTMay 14, 201910 votes

Yasuo is one of Riot's biggest money makers, so I'm sure the higher up corporate types don't want him changed. Just ban him. Remember old Kassadin? How many years did it take for Kassadin to be perma-banned for Riot to finally do something about him?

Those who do not learn from mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them.

SaezioMay 14, 20191 votes

With the subtle difference, KASSADIN WAS ALSO PICK BAN IN PRO. NOT JUST IN SOLOQ. Totally different situations.

ChaosReynMay 14, 20193 votes

Not totally different. Different, yes...but not as much as you imply.

If the guy is permabanned outside of pro play, and not picked at all in pro play, it still gives the same message of "nobody likes this guy"

Maybe it's said in different ways, but if the pros don't play him, and the solo-queue players all make sure he's banned, they're both (in completely different mindsets) are saying his current iteration sucks. Just because the reasoning is different doesn't change the overall conclusion.

It was the same with Kench - all the pros were taking him for his lane safety, and all the solo queue players were saying he sucked and anyone who played him was a troll...then they gave him a small damage buff and nerfed his team play, and now it's in complete reverse. Now all the solo queue top laners are crying that he's busted, and all the pros say he's crap.

SaezioMay 15, 20191 votes

Well, you make a pretty good argument. But I was mainly trying to point out how much worse the Kassadin situation/resolution was by Riot. (granted though back in the day like 100 champs existed so it was easier to ban him even with just the 3 bans)

If yasuo can be changed to be viable in pro and at the same time reduce his ban rate in the low elo, hell do it! What are we waiting for? I just don't think it is an easy task to do so.

Tahm is a problematic pro champion, and was the exact opposite of what yasuo is, he was perma pick/ban in pro and sub 45% winrate in soloq, now he is a viable top laner from his soloq stats but these will fall a bit when people remember how to play against him, I think this was a sort of good change to the champion. And if tanks become a bit more of a factor, tahm top could even make an appearance in pro.

ChaosReynMay 15, 20191 votes

My point bringing Kench into it was more that people are going to complain regardless because it's easier than learning/remembering how to play against someone.

As for your view on Yasuo, you're absolutely correct: the biggest problem with reworking Yasuo lies in his W. In team play, the W is almost inconsequential since pro players have the coordination to force it from him and drag him away from it. In solo queue, where there's nowhere near that level of coordination, The adc or mage will attempt to do that, and then their team will hard engage right on top of the wall where the adc and mage literally can not contribute, then rage for them not dealing damage.

In addition to that, there's the part where Yasuo gets a much earlier power spike from items than most other laners, and will legit just get to the point of walling you off your cs and daring you to contest it. The wall is a little oppressive in the early game, and his power spike early makes it feel a lot more oppressive than it actually is.

Haze97May 14, 20199 votes

He's even stronger in the late game, mind you.

As a Katarina player he used to be my perma ban. I recently started to unban him only to realize no matter how many times I destroyed him in lane it wouldn't matter once he built 'two items'.

At the point he would still be able to 1v2 with ease and late game he'd heal for more than any other champion would be able to with the same amount of life steal. He's cancer and I'm considering permabanning him again.

mack9112May 13, 20194 votes

What about him is in a unhealthy spot ?

The thigh guyMay 14, 201914 votes

{quoted}

What about him is in a unhealthy spot ?

The fact that he is handed so much shit for free? His passive does 2 things His q does 4 different things. And scales with attack speed for some reason. His w removes approximated 50% of champions from the game His e is 7+ dashes every 15 seconds. And his ult has armor pen, and has actually been made idiot proofed.

mack9112May 14, 20192 votes

he is pretty straight forward to peel as long as you dodge is nados and his dashes are relevant when he is near the wave.

ive never had trouble against him playing velkoz mid myself , bait out the wall and he is a easy kill.

pretty fair skill matchup against most champions what champs do you struggle with against him?

TerozuMay 14, 20197 votes

The majority of champs lose lane against him.

Something like 70% of midlaners, 50% of toplaners and 60% of bot laners all lose lane vs him the majority of the time.

mack9112May 14, 20191 votes

What champions are you playing into him that you are struggling with ?

TerozuMay 14, 20195 votes

Yeah who im playing doesnt matter.

He wins the majority of match ups.

THe only lane he doesn't dominate is top and that's mostly because renekton and irelia exist.

mack9112May 14, 20192 votes

You can beat him mid with numerous picks.

It is a skill matchup if you don’t want to talk specifics about what champions you struggle with against him then this is just a shit post. The champion is what it is and if you take the time to learn his cooldowns and understand his kit the lane is not hard.

TerozuMay 14, 20199 votes

I know his cooldowns.

.5->.1 on E as low as 1.33 seconds on Q, which is a tornado every 4 seconds. his ult goes down to 30 seconds. Even though it can be cast from off the other person's screen. his W is just utter bs against any projectile based champ, since he can stand in it.

He wins lane more than 50% of the time in literally every lane, something no other champ can claim. This is despite his weakness supposedly being his early game.

I know how to fight him, I know how to bait his wall. I also know it's damn near impossible to hit him with a skill shot windwall or not, since he can also dash, which gets faster with his movement speed.

I know his kit, and the few times I've ever played him it's generally been something along the lines of, blah blah blah I fucked up, R, double,triple, quadra kill. Even if Im not doing well at all the entire game.

I know how he works, I know how to fight him, I know how to counter him.

I also know he has a ton of tacked on bull shit, the game is literally coded to help him for no reason, I know he is unbelievably frutrating to play against and is overall a stupidly designed, overloaded and bullshit creation that is unhealthy. I know that he has had above 50% banrate since his inception over 5(?) years ago now.

He is a hated and unhealthy champ who has no place in a PvP game. He deserves a rework and quite frankly deserves to be disabled until it happens.

No one, even Teemo who is memed to be Satan him fucking self, is as near universally hated as Yasuo.

No one, even Ezreal who is played far more often and broken far more often, has reached that kind of consistent banrate since LoL actually was LoL and not having true stealthed Eve and op Kassadin.

I know how to fight a Yasuo. I can hold my own in lane against him even when he hard counters me. i can easily kill him if I counter him.

I hate doing it.

I hate wining lane against him, I hate losing lane against him. I hate dodging his tornados I hate getting hit by them. I hate having him dodge every skill shot with E I hate using his E to dodge skill shots as if it required any effort. I hate watching people get snared by his ult, I hate getting snared by his ult, and I hate using his ult.

I hate how his passive is always up and everything in his kit helps his passive come up.

I hate how he can delete projectiles but Akali isn't allowed to heal and Irelia can't break shields.

I hate that Riot will delete things everyone considers iconic from other champs but leave things no one considers iconic on Yas because "they're iconic!".

I hate that Riot announced a rework for him, then went silent for 3 months and said never mind.

I actually love the character, I love his art and design and I love his lore.

His kit never should've existed and needs a complete overhaul to even begin to be balanced for a PvP game.

I hate how people say "he takes some skill to play!", but nowhere near as much attributed. He is literally an inverted Kat in that regard. Kat is deceptively hard to play because she has no actual survival skills. Yasuo is deceptively easy to play because he has a shit ton of survival skills and also the game is coded to make him live even though he should be turret diving.

It is not a matter of "hes strong!", "hes weak", "hes busted!" or "hes been gutted". His strength as a champ doesn't factor in in any manner.

I couldn't care less if he was gutted to make his Q only do 1 damage. I'd still hate him.

He isn't a strong champion.

He's a bad design. He is the incarnation of every possible design flaw in a character's kit put together into a single kit.

He has over bearing skill shots, he has the game giving him it's aid, he has far to much mobility, he literally has 2 passives that don't interact in any way, one passive is to literally double a stat, the other is to literally give a free shield with no actual cooldown and it comes up faster with his abilities. His ult is literally a "pause the fight and give him damage and a shield that has no actual interaction". He's near impossible to properly interact with. He's designed in such a way to turn off the parts of other champs that make them fun. He is able to use single target healing with his aoe damage, he is able to completely delete damage instead of simply reducing it. His Q has been bugged to allow him to cast it while moving for years.

He is a terible design.

It's not whether he's strong or weak.

It's that his kit shouldn't exist.

The only reason he is allowed to exist is because a top dog on the balance team mains the champ.

The same way Karma was allowed to be busted for the exact same reason. Karma balance team member got fired.

Yasuo's team member should be held to the same standard.

crippler38May 14, 20191 votes

Sorry to interrupt but what iconic things were removed? Unless you meant reworks.

TerozuMay 14, 20191 votes

Did you know Akali used to be known as the healing assassin?

Guess what she doesn't have anywhere in her kit or actually synergize that well with anymore?

LordGeovanniMay 14, 20192 votes

His W causes 38% of champions to have to reposition to properly fight him. and is actually the most fair and any of his kit slot's P Q W E R. Only thing about it is that its almost as fat as malphite or maokai when it needs to be as thin as Lux and lux needs a real hit box

The thigh guyMay 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

His W causes 38% of champions to have to reposition to properly fight him. and is actually the most fair and any of his kit slot's P Q W E R. Only thing about it is that its almost as fat as malphite or maokai when it needs to be as thin as Lux and lux needs a real hit box

Except it’s more than 38% of champions. And they can’t just “reposition” because he can juggle inside his stupid wall to completely invalidate any projectile ever.

SaezioMay 14, 20191 votes

Go to the side of the damn wall and you have access to both sides.

SaevumMay 14, 20193 votes

Lies.

They haven't reached the idiot proof yet. Yassuo is still missing nados.

Sebastit7dMay 14, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Lies.

They haven't reached the idiot proof yet. Yassuo is still missing nados.

Except that nados have a 3 second cooldown, one second per Q : ^)

SaezioMay 14, 20191 votes

Except that's not true. Show me a video with 2 nados 3 seconds apart

Or be a liar.

TerozuMay 14, 20191 votes

Hes wrong, it's 1.33 seconds per Q when fully built, tornados are 4 seconds apart.

Which is still fucking stupid.

SõnaMay 15, 20191 votes

Most importantly all of his kits cost nothing, neither mana points nor energy points is what pissed me off while playing against such soulless champion.

The thigh guyMay 15, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Most importantly all of his kits cost nothing, neither mana points nor energy points is what pissed me off while playing against such soulless champion.

Tbh I’d be fine with him being resourceless, if his cooldowns existed. Like, this champions compromises nothing and only gains. Oh. His crits do less. Until he gets an ie.