I feel like MF's passive is counter intuitive.

Busty Demoness··5 votes·1,175 views

As it stands, it encourages switching targets, which is bad for Marksmen at any stage of the game. While it helps with last hitting early on, the primary purpose is not fitting of a marksman. While I believe she's currently in a decent spot, I do not believe she should be reliant on this mechanic as a Marksman.

I suggest changing it to a 4-hit passive that encourages MF to stick to one target while still rewarding her for landing a powerful ultimate.

Fiery Passion Anytime Miss Fortune deals physical damage to a target, she applies 1 stack of Passion. Passion lasts for 4 seconds and stacks up to 4 times. Each time the 4th stack is applied, Passion deals 0.4-1.0 of Miss Fortune's Bonus AD in physical damage.

Since Strut's cooldown reset is tied to her passive, we'll need to adjust this too.

Strut Guns n Roses - Strut's cooldown is reset anytime Passion deals damage.

With this change, she loses most of her lane bully power in exchange for straight up dueling power. In being applied to all physical damage, she will be rewarded on landing her ultimate on as many enemies as possible. This also allows her to maintain her identity as the Queen of the Combo without a huge change to her overall power.

35 Comments

CrazFight 3 votes

Miss fortune is fine.

Busty Demoness3 votes

{quoted}

Miss fortune is fine.

I agree that she's in a decent spot.

I still think she should not be relying on a mechanic that doesn't fit a Marksman.

Ralanr1 votes

It's a mechanic unique to her.

Zero Skill Tank3 votes

But that's the thing - MF can't be allowed to have dueling power/dps other marksman do. If she had it, she loses incentive to use her ultimate, as it was in the past, or said ultimate needs to be absurdly, absurdly strong, as it also was in the past.

Love Tap fits her perfectly, allowing her last-hitting and trading to be good even though her base stats are so crappy.

Busty Demoness1 votes

{quoted}

But that's the thing - MF can't be allowed to have dueling power/dps other marksman do. If she had it, she loses incentive to use her ultimate, as it was in the past, or said ultimate needs to be absurdly, absurdly strong, as it also was in the past.

Love Tap fits her perfectly, allowing her last-hitting and trading to be good even though her base stats are so crappy.

So why not encourage good usage of her ultimate with a passive that actually works with it?

And all I've done is take power away from her up front and poke to put it into her sustained trades, where she does better the longer she attacks someone. The way it's worded actually empowers her ultimate, since it applies on any physical damage not just her basic attacks. If she landed 4+ hits of her ultimate on the enemy team, anyone who took 4 or more hits will take the damage. She still has incentive to use her ultimate, she still has lane phase trading power, she simply doesn't have that power in her poke or up front.

zlumpy2 votes

Not really. You just end up using the ultimate for different purposes. Before I would use it for pushing, zoming objectives, or defending a tower. Now it seems that they just want you to be a walking ult with little other reason to exist in a team fight. Thats bad champ design. Its why Fiora was reworked. Walking ults aren't good for the game.

Busty Demoness1 votes

{quoted}

Not really. You just end up using the ultimate for different purposes. Before I would use it for pushing, zoming objectives, or defending a tower. Now it seems that they just want you to be a walking ult with little other reason to exist in a team fight. Thats bad champ design. Its why Fiora was reworked. Walking ults aren't good for the game.

Fiora was reworked because people were CONVINCED she was an ultimate bot and cried about a lack of counter play when there were still plenty of answers to her. That's for another thread though.

And MF's ultimate, even with this passive, can still be used for massive wave clear. But it's now more focused on team fights, rewarding her for landing ones on most of the enemy champions. Plus, it still works on super minions (the only things tough enough to withstand 4 shots from an ADC late game) so it's still valid for defense as well.

In addition, this passive would give her synergy with Hurricane, further increasing her team fight presence.

Sire Hippington1 votes

Nope, currently her ult is absurdly, very ansurdly strong because it needs to compensate for her poor singletarget dps. Old MF had her ult to soften up her opponents and stacj up her W, and then could clean after her ult with strong dps thx to the Wstacks applies by the ult, while she also could stand her ground 1v1.

Now her power is nealy all concentrated in her ult, as well as the Q pomke in lane. The ult alone, without any further action from her, can destroy an entire team. it's currently the single most broken skill in the game. But therefor, she sucks on nearly everything else. Also, how would singletarget dps on 550range make her lose incentive to use her longranged aoe ultimate?

Busty Demoness1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Cingulum,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1hABAflE,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2016-06-25T18:42:54.548+0000)

Nope, currently her ult is absurdly, very ansurdly strong because it needs to compensate for her poor singletarget dps. Old MF had her ult to soften up her opponents and stacj up her W, and then could clean after her ult with strong dps thx to the Wstacks applies by the ult, while she also could stand her ground 1v1.

Now her power is nealy all concentrated in her ult, as well as the Q pomke in lane. The ult alone, without any further action from her, can destroy an entire team. it's currently the single most broken skill in the game. But therefor, she sucks on nearly everything else. Also, how would singletarget dps on 550range make her lose incentive to use her longranged aoe ultimate?

And this is what people fail to understand is part of the problem.

This idea allows power to be taken from her ultimate (but not a whole lot) and possibly even distribute some of it into her base stats. She doesn't need her ultimate overloaded with power for it to be effective and this idea helps work towards it.

Blue Kaozi3 votes

They intentionally gave her this passive as a gate to make her worse at continued 1v1 fights. Dueling is not supposed to be her strong suit. Shes mean to poke / disengage with her base kit and combo with her ult. They didn't want her to be good at everything. I think its a good way to make her feel a bit more unique.

Busty Demoness1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Kaozi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1hABAflE,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-06-25T13:11:15.044+0000)

They intentionally gave her this passive as a gate to make her worse at continued 1v1 fights. Dueling is not supposed to be her strong suit. Shes mean to poke / disengage with her base kit and combo with her ult. They didn't want her to be good at everything. I think its a good way to make her feel a bit more unique.

And if you'll notice, I took away her poking/last hitting power in exchange for strength in SUSTAINED duels. 4 hits is a lot for her passive and it makes it harder for her to use it in shorter trades.

The damage only triggers on the 4th stack. So for those first 3 attacks, she's getting zero benefit. Minions generally won't be lasting long enough for her passive to matter, particularly after lane phase. Champions who go in for a quick trade, like Lucian, will still be doing more damage than she will up front.

I did keep overall strength in mind, and I do feel it was shifted rather than simply increased.

CerealBoxOfDoom2 votes

MF is not a duelist, she is an ADC.

An adc is not necessarily a single target champ nor are they an assassin of any kind necessarily.

An adc does not care who they hit if it will end the fight and thus they will build to kill anyone at all including front line fighters. It is not the job of the adc to specifically target any squishy or tanky champ.

Also note that it says physical damage so that means abilities too. MF only has 1 non-aoe ability.

Busty Demoness1 votes

{quoted}

MF is not a duelist, she is an ADC.

An adc is not necessarily a single target champ nor are they an assassin of any kind necessarily.

An adc does not care who they hit if it will end the fight and thus they will build to kill anyone at all including front line fighters. It is not the job of the adc to specifically target any squishy or tanky champ.

Also note that it says physical damage so that means abilities too. MF only has 1 non-aoe ability.

That's why I enabled it on all of her physical damage. Her ultimate and Double Up would still trigger this and Strut would enable her to keep on someone for longer.

She's rewarded for sticking to whatever target she picks as well as landing that perfect ultimate.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Busty Demoness,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1hABAflE,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-06-25T13:58:26.854+0000)

**That's why I enabled it **on all of her physical damage. Her ultimate and Double Up would still trigger this and Strut would enable her to keep on someone for longer.

She's rewarded for sticking to whatever target she picks as well as landing that perfect ultimate.

http://static4.fjcdn.com/comments/What+do+snakes+put+in+their+kitchen+floors+_ef61ad23f5177e39d1bffa119427b053.png

zlumpy2 votes

Which is annoying because she used to be a pretty damn good duelist early/mid game and sometimes even late game.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

{quoted}

Which is annoying because she used to be a pretty damn good duelist early/mid game and sometimes even late game.

not really MF didn't really duel you she just walked up to you and beat you with stats if she had them. There wasn't really a whole skillful duel thing going on there lol.

zlumpy1 votes

We just have different definitions of dueling is all. To me a duel is any time a low number of players fight eachother. Just because she isn't teleporting everywhere, dodging every skill shot, and trying to predict everything you do doesn't mean she didn't duel. Thats like saying the old pistol duels where people took ten paces turned and fired weren't duels.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

{quoted}

We just have different definitions of dueling is all. To me a duel is any time a low number of players fight eachother. Just because she isn't teleporting everywhere, dodging every skill shot, and trying to predict everything you do doesn't mean she didn't duel. Thats like saying the old pistol duels where people took ten paces turned and fired weren't duels.

lol, why even dodge, you just lose dps, just take the hit and shoot.

MF doesn't take ten paces, turn and shoots. She just grabbed a gun, pointed it at the nearest thing, and fired when she was alone. pewpewpew.

zlumpy2 votes

Which is something I always loved about the old MF design. Step1) plant feet. Step2) start shooting and activate as buff. Step3) watch enemy realize they dun goofed. Step4) choose to either ult for last hit or run them down with higher movespeed.

I can't really do that as well now with the W change :(

Busty Demoness1 votes

{quoted}

Which is annoying because she used to be a pretty damn good duelist early/mid game and sometimes even late game.

That's part of what this change idea targets. She is now able to duel again, preferring longer battles at the cost of up front damage and poking power.

TopLaneCantCarry2 votes

God no we don't need another fucking 3-4 hit passive. It's Riots cop out.

Busty Demoness1 votes

{quoted}

God no we don't need another fucking 3-4 hit passive. It's Riots cop out.

How many Marksman have a multi-hit passive?

Vayne is the only one who truly has one. The only other marksman who even comes close is Twitch due to his poison.

I don't count Kindred because hers is tied to a targeted skill. I don't count Jhin or Caitlyn because theirs are based on their attacks, rather than on-hit. Varus doesn't count either because it requires that he casts a skill to make full use of it.

Hate my idea if you want, I don't feel like Miss Fortune's current passive is thematic or congruent with a Marksman.

Ralanr1 votes

It's not just marksmen. He means in general.

TopLaneCantCarry1 votes

^

Rockman1 votes

Triggered

Oleandervine1 votes

I think you're missing a few points here that people are making. They're saying Miss Fortune is not designed to be a sustained duelist. Miss Fortune is designed to be a high burst ADC with amazing poke. This is her niche, the type of ADC sub-role that she fills. Vayne, Jinx, Draven, and Twitch are designed to be some of the more sustained damage ADCs, with Vayne being an overall better duelist. Miss Fortune is more akin to Jhin or Caitlyn, as both of them are very high poke oriented ADCs who tend to rely on spells and very calculated shots to deal bursty amounts of damage. Your changes could be interesting, yes, but they fundamentally change the playstyle of Miss Fortune and her kit overall doesn't particularly support a sustained dueling type of playstyle.

Busty Demoness1 votes

{quoted}

I think you're missing a few points here that people are making. They're saying Miss Fortune is not designed to be a sustained duelist. Miss Fortune is designed to be a high burst ADC with amazing poke. This is her niche, the type of ADC sub-role that she fills. Vayne, Jinx, Draven, and Twitch are designed to be some of the more sustained damage ADCs, with Vayne being an overall better duelist. Miss Fortune is more akin to Jhin or Caitlyn, as both of them are very high poke oriented ADCs who tend to rely on spells and very calculated shots to deal bursty amounts of damage. Your changes could be interesting, yes, but they fundamentally change the playstyle of Miss Fortune and her kit overall doesn't particularly support a sustained dueling type of playstyle.

I understand that currently she isn't. And it's not really a valid point since it goes against the thematic of a mobile gunner dual wielding pistols. Why would someone with dual pistols act the same as 2 others with long-range rifles? Why does it make sense to you that someone dual wielding pistols is playing similarly to a sniper?

Frankly, her play style does need reverted back to more sustained dueling due to thematic feel. Her ultimate would get a small buff from the passive as would her Strut, but she takes a heavy hit to her Double Up in power by reducing its poke potential. Double Up would still be there for poke, but it's no longer where most of her power lies.

Linna Excel1 votes

She used to have a ramp on her AAs on her E where the more times you hit a target, the more damage you did to them.

While I can see what riot was trying to do with love tap, it doesn't play as well as I'd like it to.

Busty Demoness1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1hABAflE,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-06-25T14:57:48.454+0000)

She used to have a ramp on her AAs on her E where the more times you hit a target, the more damage you did to them.

While I can see what riot was trying to do with love tap, it doesn't play as well as I'd like it to.

It was actually her original W - Impure Shots, which was changed to Strut with the Marksman update. Her E has remained the exact same skill (aside from damage/slow changes) since her release.

And I agree. Love Tap does not actually fit in with her style or theme. It's a nice last hit helper, but it's not thematic in any way.

Sightless661 votes

I suggest changing it to a 4-hit passive that encourages MF to stick to one target while still rewarding her for landing a powerful ultimate.

No, let's not go back to that. The worst period of MF's design was when her ultimate was tied to a stacking mechanic. All it did was ensure that the first few ticks of the ultimate were utterly worthless. It felt like absolute crap. I have no desire to ever see this mechanic or anything even remotely similar on her ultimate ever again. The ultimate can stand by itself. There is no point in forcing it to be a bitch for some stupid stacking mechanic. We tried that, it failed, and we've moved on.

Mf's current passive is fine. It serves as a good laning mechanic, it functions well with her Q and its bounce, and it can be used well enough in skirmishes and teamfights when you will be forced to switch targets. It isn't ideal for single-target damage, but then again, not every mechanic on every ADC needs to be tuned towards single-target damage. It is fine to have variations in what AD carries are good at. She will be less good for single-target damage, and she has other strengths in exchange.

Even more importantly, it encourages her to play in ways that are different to other AD carries. It enhances her being something different from them. That is ideal.

With this change, she loses most of her lane bully power in exchange for straight up dueling power.

Why am I picking MF for "straight up dueling power"? That sounds like the exact opposite of what I want when I play MF. I am picking her because she has strengths that are not "straight up dueling power". If we were changing anything about MF, I would like to see more power removed from dueling, and put into her unique strengths. I'm very happy with her being a shitty duelist.

Busty Demoness1 votes

{quoted}

No, let's not go back to that. The worst period of MF's design was when her ultimate was tied to a stacking mechanic. All it did was ensure that the first few ticks of the ultimate were utterly worthless. It felt like absolute crap. I have no desire to ever see this mechanic or anything even remotely similar on her ultimate ever again. The ultimate can stand by itself. There is no point in forcing it to be a bitch for some stupid stacking mechanic. We tried that, it failed, and we've moved on.

If the passive damage proved overbearing with her ultimate, they'd likely chip the damage on the ultimate. Unlike the previous incarnation, which dealt bonus damage at each stack, this one only deals it at 4. This means they can still keep a lot of the ultimate damage. They have no reason to do anything more than chip off 0.2 of the AD Ratio.

Mf's current passive is fine. It serves as a good laning mechanic, it functions well with her Q and its bounce, and it can be used well enough in skirmishes and teamfights when you will be forced to switch targets. It isn't ideal for single-target damage, but then again, not every mechanic on every ADC needs to be tuned towards single-target damage. It is fine to have variations in what AD carries are good at.

In terms of function? Yes, it's fine. For thematic as a character and as a marksman it is horrible.

Why am I picking MF for "straight up dueling power"? That sounds like the exact opposite of what I want when I play MF. I am picking her because she has strengths that are not "straight up dueling power". If we were changing anything about MF, I would like to see more power removed from dueling, and put into her unique strengths. I'm very happy with her being a shitty duelist.

Frankly, I pick her for her team fight presence in late game, rather than her early game poke/bully. I liked her better when it felt like she was played like 'two guns are better than one'. In a dual wielding thematic, this dueling aspect what should be played on, not hit and run. If you wanted a hit and run character, leave her with a single pistol. Run and Gun characters are designed to be constantly moving and attacking.

Here's a scene from Equilibrium that I feel best defines how a gunner dual wielding pistols should, to some extent, be fighting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIrbNCVCu6I

Mind you, he's not moving around due to the cold and calculating nature of how he's fighting. Miss Fortune really should be fighting similar to this but dashing between cover spots.

Sightless661 votes

If the passive damage proved overbearing with her ultimate, they'd likely chip the damage on the ultimate.

Exactly! That's my entire problem with it! I hated, hated it when the ultimate's damage used to be compromised for the sake of stacks. That entire concept of reducing the ult's damage so that it can be backloaded with a stacking mechanic sounds like absolute fucking bullshit. That is the reason she felt like crap in the past, and I hate the idea of it returning with a passion.

There is nothing good that can come of attaching this passive to her ultimate. This is a purely negative idea. No positives, only downsides. The ultimate's damage should not be backloaded. There should be a threat to any amount of time spent sitting in the ult. I shouldn't be able to get out after 3 ticks and be nearly unscathed.

In terms of function? Yes, it's fine

It's better than fine. It's unique. It's something we don't have otherwise. It is different. Single-target damage though applying stacks is not unique. It's overdone. It's generic. It's boring.

So, I'm seeing a downgrade in gameplay, which you are justifying.

For thematic as a character and as a marksman it is horrible.

As an ADC, it's perfectly fine. She perfectly fulfills the criteria for being an ADC. All that she needs to "thematically" be an ADC is ranged AD autoattacks. She doesn't need to have some major focus on single target. She doesn't need a stacking mechanic. All of that is needless limitations. All she needs is to be a ranged physical damage dealer. That is the only criteria that matters.

As for her character thematics: First, I don't really care that much. I care way more that her gameplay is unique, and I think your proposal is a major downgrade in that department. That alone makes it a bad idea to me. If we're going to change her gameplay to fit thematics, the gameplay should be at least as good as what it currently is. The ultimate changes alone guarantee that this would not be true. We're going back towards a design that already failed spectacularly.

Second, I think they're fine there too. I don't see any particular reason why "single target damage" is the twin gun thing. AoE seems to be perfectly fine. She's the girl who blasts everyone down. Sprays and prays. Works for me.

I'm not trying to be facetious here. I've seriously never seen any disconnect between her gameplay and thematics. You're taking it as granted that this is something that is a problem, but I don't see any issue with it. When I picture a double gunner, I see them shooting as many different people as possible. That's the entire point of having multiple guns, so you can shoot a lot of people.

Here's a scene from Equilibrium that I feel best defines how a gunner dual wielding pistols should, to some extent, be fighting.

He shoots a lot of different people. Seems to fit the current paradigm quite well.

How does a stacking mechanic fit what I just watched? I see nothing that made me think anything about shooting the same person over and over again. That seems like the opposite of what I just saw. I'm seriously even more opposed to your proposal after seeing that video.

It's almost making me question why Lucian doesn't have more of an AoE focus. We could do that with his double guns pretty well I think. That would fit the video much better if we took away some of his single target damage and introduced some way to shoot multiple people. He has the trenchcoat thing going on too.

Oleandervine1 votes

You compare Miss Fortune to Keanu Reaves with a semi automatic pistol. She's a pirate with a flintlock pistol, and she fulfils that fantasy as such. That type of weapon is not engineered for quick, rapid fire nor is it engineered for movement while firing (on account of the low ammo capacity). Think Pirates of the Caribbean when you think of how she fights. She fires a few very choice rounds, but doesn't move much. The guns aren't designed for sustained fights (again, the ammo), and pirates generally revert to swords when they run out of ammo. Miss Fortune doesn't have swords, obviously, but her playstyle reflects this selective firing style typical to a pirate gunfight.

Teridax681 votes

I think you might be missing the point of MF's passive, which is precisely to make her deviate from the marksman norm through target switching. She is already a very AoE-focused marksman by nature, what with her Q and R encouraging her to shoot through multiple enemies at once, and her passive is designed to reinforce that by encouraging her to pick targets opportunistically, and not just focus on a single enemy. There are already a host of different marksmen who specialize in single-target damage, so all in all it's fine if there's at least one marksman out there who specializes in multi-target DPS instead.

Sire Hippington1 votes

Or just go to her old passive and W, the stacking up on-hit was great...

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