This upcoming patch actually depresses me.

Amélie Cauchemar··5 votes·619 views

I know most people have mixed bag feelings about Kindred

But, honestly . . . with how the patch is working out. It's overkill.

Most people will go, "Oh, this isn't so bad. X + Y =Z."

What people aren't getting though is did any of those special snowflakes actually take into consideration the attack resetting, or how vulnerable you are after wolf is done ((She's actually one of the easiest champs to invade believe it or not.)) This change makes it easier to invade her than it already was. On top of that. The thing about Kindred is this.

If she does not get her first mark her chance of winning that game plummets by a good 6%. Here is why.

I have to sacrifice an extra 6 or 7 auto attacks + extra mana for one buff while the other jungler is already well on their way to their next one. If the mark pops up on the scuttle bug on the way to their next buff they will get it, and then they will most likely invade me anyways because I am almost going to guaranteeingly be oom. ((Kindred uses more mana than the avg jungler,she actually does go oom if starting red buff side and has to smite blue B mid way, and still uses all her cds and has to auto attack fest it.))

So, while I'm dicking around with this fucking bull shit set of camps, incredibly oom, with an incredibly shit tacular jungle clear speed making a race to get my first mark + hopefully catch the other jungler on his way to kill my mentally challenged top laner.

These piece of craps Gragas LeeSin Gragas Graves Udyr XinZhao Tryndamere Shyvana Ekko Have already done all their camps, got MY marks, have more health, and more mana, and are already ganking MY ally before I'M even done. You know what's worse than that. (It's already like this ATM. PBE it's even slower))

Have you ever seen a 15 minute Kindred with no marks? She's a useless piece of garbage is what she is. I can't tell you how many times I run into highly coordinated 4 man premades that make it their goal in life to ruin my jungle while my laners sit there. It's only going to get worse with the changes too.

The ganks are now also sub par.

A sad reality is Kindred almost never gets damage off with her W because she often has to use it to actually reach the person she's trying to kill because she for some reason, despite having massive thighs, can't run to save her life. So, she has to hop 2 times just to reach them. Her two hops also = 1/2 of the average gap closer.

In invade skirmishes she's losing well over 400 damage. So, pre' much anyone in the game can actually kill her level 3 unless she somehow got two marks before then ((which required planning + the right enemy jungler + the right amount of incompetent players on the enemy team.))

To make matters even worse

With how the upcoming changers are, you frankly need to run armor pen, otherwise you'll do asstastic amounts of damage, especially if you're unfortunate ((which you will be)) trying to obtain marks. This will make your clear even slower, and even easier to be invaded.

((See below for the rest of the B.S of 6.9))

To make matters even worse, say good bye to ever ganking mid lane :))

item 3140 this little gem is now a useless piece of crap. So, going mid lane is a death sentence, especially if the opponent is Malzahar This special snowflake right here.

A very good chunk of skill revolved around how to utilize this weapon in a fight to out play opponents you otherwise cannot fight.

Darius Malzahar Anivia Brand Braum Ekko Fizz Fiora Kindred KogMaw Leona Shyvana Tryndamere Tristana XinZhao Vladimir Trundle Velkoz

This is just a list of a small hand full of champs you can counter play with this item with proper usage.

Now, Malzahar Is the literal definition of a brain dead champion. Immune to cc + damage amp + unqssable dot + unqssable ult. He's the epitome of brain dead, but now other champions have also become more brain dead, and or harder to counter which actually lowers the skill cap of this game by very large margins.

One of the "logicz" behind this

"Adcs rely on positioning, and this will separate the good from the bad."

Because being dead and walking out of base is "out of position."

Rengar Zed Evelynn Warwick Skarner Urgot And a hand full of other champs can all basically flash cheese 100-0 you. It's even worse when you're

Varus Jhin Ashe Draven Jinx KogMaw

I can't tell you how many games champs like

LeeSin Gragas Can Q + W + flash + R you from an entire lanes worth of distance and also kill you/get you killed by doing so.

"You were out of position. durr. get rekt baddy noob adc!"

But QSS won't save a lot of that. What it did do is remove slows and debuffs so that you "might" survive this cheese. Now, even if I do "get away." I'm going to randomly die from Brand passive, or something fucking stupid like that.

Either way the item 3140 just caters to the literal throat shoving 100% intentionally forced unbalanced AP meta shift because their intention is to make mid laners blatantly over powered in the upcoming patch.

So, not only did my main champ Kindred get triple nerfed in one patch, they also indirectly buffed all of Kindred's difficult match ups + made middle lane almost impossible to gank + also made tanky champions able to flat out ignore her.

All in one patch. + basically made all adcs 100% a non factor in one patch. There's no reason to pick any ADC that isn't Tristana in the upcoming patches because the rest are going to get deleted before they can do anything relevant.

There were a million different ways they could have handled a "LOT" of ordeals. This was IMHO the worst possible way of doing it.

IF all of these actually do make it to live, I'll most likely be moving on to a different game until the very obviously incoming nerfs/reverts come.

It's also just ridiculous how my champ only has a decent win rate because a very small player base uses her and it just happened to be these one or two patches where she is even relevant. ((Her high pick rate is almost solely in upper plat/gold/diamond. Most of the gold and plat ones are garbage tbh. So, it's basically only the diamond ones that are even good and abusing her on smurf accounts.))

Just a few patches ago Kindred had a 46% win rate and I was even being reported for picking her. Now she has a "respectable" win rate against the "right" enemies and so she gets triple nerfed + a meta change + a complete itemization change + 4 items nerfed + a pool stick shoved up her ass all in one patch.

:)

GJ!

And yes, I am salty, and yes this is a tl;dr. But, it doesn't concern just my champion. The entire mid lane drastic change is an ass load of BS.

47 Comments

FACE THE WlND3 votes

Kindred may be an easy champion to invade (According to you), but she is also one of the best, if not the best at invading.

Amélie Cauchemar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=FACE THE WlND,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gnwjOTe,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-04-27T21:04:03.876+0000)

Kindred may be an easy champion to invade (According to you), but she is also one of the best, if not the best at invading.

If you're expecting to be invaded, just ward bush by dragon pit and do birds, and or ward your blue and do wolves. Congrats, you have just killed Kindred trying to invade you.

If you want to invade her, just wait about 5 to 8 seconds longer than you usually would and go in. Her W will be down, she'll be almost oom, and her Q will be down. You're naturally faster tthan her, do more damage than her, and she's squishy. It's a free kill.

Ty for stopping by.

Quepha3 votes

{quoted}

If you're expecting to be invaded, just ward bush by dragon pit and do birds, and or ward your blue and do wolves. Congrats, you have just killed Kindred trying to invade you.

If you want to invade her, just wait about 5 to 8 seconds longer than you usually would and go in. Her W will be down, she'll be almost oom, and her Q will be down. You're naturally faster tthan her, do more damage than her, and she's squishy. It's a free kill.

Ty for stopping by.

Kinda weird that pro players haven't figured this out, if they only learned from you they'd stop having to ban Kindred almost every game.

Amélie Cauchemar1 votes

{quoted}

Kinda weird that pro players haven't figured this out, if they only learned from you they'd stop having to ban Kindred almost every game.

Pros play 100% differently than everyone else. So, trying to take my solo queue advice and then apply it to LCS and say "durr durr you're retarded durr durr." Just doesn't work. Sorry.

In soloqueue she feeds all the same in challenger. I see more 0/6/0 Kindreds in challenger than I do anywhere else, and it's directly because of what I say in this very discussion.

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

Pros play 100% differently than everyone else. So, trying to take my solo queue advice and then apply it to LCS and say "durr durr you're retarded durr durr." Just doesn't work. Sorry.

In soloqueue she feeds all the same in challenger. I see more 0/6/0 Kindreds in challenger than I do anywhere else, and it's directly because of what I say in this very discussion.

http://www.lolking.net/champions/kindred?chartType=winrate&region=na&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=challenger#statistics

average of 56.8% winrate over the last 10 days in master+, seems pretty strong to me.

Amélie Cauchemar1 votes

{quoted}

http://www.lolking.net/champions/kindred?chartType=winrate&region=na&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=challenger#statistics

average of 56.8% winrate over the last 10 days in master+, seems pretty strong to me.

Now lower that list down to how many players are actually using her, and against which junglers, and who is on which junglers. This actually matters a lot up there.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Now lower that list down to how many players are actually using her, and against which junglers, and who is on which junglers. This actually matters a lot up there.

A champion is only good if they have no bad matchups? That doesn't sound like good balance to me.

Amélie Cauchemar1 votes

{quoted}

A champion is only good if they have no bad matchups? That doesn't sound like good balance to me.

No, what matters is the fact you're using challenger as a reference, and throw out a 56% win rate. The average challenger roster on a given day is like 20-30 people. Who those 20 -30 people are matters, whose on what champion matters, and what those champions are matters.

What do you think happens to Tyler1 if he doesn't get Draven for example?

He's arguably the best Draven in the world, but if he doesn't get Draven guess what happens up there. He feeds and loses.

That in a nutshell is challenger. It's also a lot of diamond believe it or not.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

No, what matters is the fact you're using challenger as a reference, and throw out a 56% win rate. The average challenger roster on a given day is like 20-30 people. Who those 20 -30 people are matters, whose on what champion matters, and what those champions are matters.

What do you think happens to Tyler1 if he doesn't get Draven for example?

He's arguably the best Draven in the world, but if he doesn't get Draven guess what happens up there. He feeds and loses.

That in a nutshell is challenger. It's also a lot of diamond believe it or not.

That's the reason I extended my sample to a 10 day average.

Amélie Cauchemar1 votes

{quoted}

That's the reason I extended my sample to a 10 day average.

Most challenger players only play once or twice every 10 days on their mains. Doesn't change much. Trust me. I'm fighting a lot of them on my smurf as it is.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Most challenger players only play once or twice every 10 days on their mains. Doesn't change much. Trust me. I'm fighting a lot of them on my smurf as it is.

That would actually make it a perfect sample size since everyone got coverage of some kind within the sample.

Amélie Cauchemar1 votes

{quoted}

That would actually make it a perfect sample size since everyone got coverage of some kind within the sample.

Yep, a very inconsistent sample size of total RNG.

Gosu gets Teemo , the infamous rager Vayne decides she's going to troll that game, enemy locks in Thresh jungle, and then Kindred locks in and wins the immediate 2v5 game.

Do you count those special snow flake challenger games?

How many of the ones do you count where the full LCS teams go against a bunch of random solo ones that just open mid instantly because they don't want to play and just cycle through instantly?

These all skew win rates dramatically in that place. It's why a lot of people don't even enjoy playing this game atm up there.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Yep, a very inconsistent sample size of total RNG.

Gosu gets Teemo , the infamous rager Vayne decides she's going to troll that game, enemy locks in Thresh jungle, and then Kindred locks in and wins the immediate 2v5 game.

Do you count those special snow flake challenger games?

How many of the ones do you count where the full LCS teams go against a bunch of random solo ones that just open mid instantly because they don't want to play and just cycle through instantly?

These all skew win rates dramatically in that place. It's why a lot of people don't even enjoy playing this game atm up there.

100% of all of those cases because they are all legitimate games of League.

Amélie Cauchemar1 votes

{quoted}

100% of all of those cases because they are all legitimate games of League.

And now you see why she has such a high win rate. TY for stopping by.

FACE THE WlND1 votes

I really like you. :)

Amélie Cauchemar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=FACE THE WlND,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gnwjOTe,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2016-04-27T22:07:35.989+0000)

I really like you. :)

Why are you copying the GDERS name?

FACE THE WlND1 votes

What?

FACE THE WlND2 votes

This could be said for every single other jungler in existence... You obviously know nothing about Kindred or the jungle, or anything having to do with league of legends. I also like you how acted like a smartass towards me just because I shared my opinion, if you're going to be a dick to everyone who shares their opinion what was the point of this thread? Kindred is obviously broken, and deserves this nerf, especially with Bloodrazor coming out next patch.

Amélie Cauchemar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=FACE THE WlND,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gnwjOTe,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2016-04-27T22:10:21.049+0000)

This could be said for every single other jungler in existence... You obviously know nothing about Kindred or the jungle, or anything having to do with league of legends. I also like you how acted like a smartass towards me just because I shared my opinion, if you're going to be a dick to everyone who shares their opinion what was the point of this thread? Kindred is obviously broken, and deserves this nerf, especially with Bloodrazor coming out next patch.

You shared a opinion that I've found faulty over countless games as and against this particular champion, on 4 separate accounts across multiple mmrs, including your mmr.

I then even gave you the exact way to invade her + counter her invade.

Also the blood razor is meh. IT's actually a nerf.

item 3025 item 3110 item 3068 <-- pretty staple build. Makes the item a useless sack of crap without armor pen. Armor pen = slower clears = faster enemy snow ball = you don't snowball = you lose.

FACE THE WlND2 votes

So you're saying Kindred passive is useless right now?

Amélie Cauchemar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=FACE THE WlND,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gnwjOTe,comment-id=00000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-04-27T22:23:20.687+0000)

So you're saying Kindred passive is useless right now?

If the enemy team has a single brain cell and doesn't let you get 12 stacks. Yes.

ModWulf Helhammer3 votes

You realize QSS will still remove suppressions

Amélie Cauchemar1 votes

{quoted}

You realize QSS will still remove suppressions

It actually does not on PBE. Unless they just very recently changed it.

ModWulf Helhammer2 votes

If it doesn't currently, that's a bug. All they changed about it is that it no longer removes all debuffs, only crowd control, and suppression counts as crowd control. Hell, it still removes Fizz ult because it had a slow on it.

Amélie Cauchemar1 votes

{quoted}

If it doesn't currently, that's a bug. All they changed about it is that it no longer removes all debuffs, only crowd control, and suppression counts as crowd control. Hell, it still removes Fizz ult because it had a slow on it.

That's one small benefit of man kind.

But, that still doesn't stop the rest of the auto win debuff abusers.

Swain Brand Malzahar Ashe Amumu Fiora Braum Cassiopeia Malzahar Malphite Shyvana

Just to name a few. It's what kept a lot of these champs remotely in check.

ModWulf Helhammer4 votes

I see only one champion on there that people legitimately bought QSS for that will no longer be affected by it.

Amélie Cauchemar1 votes

{quoted}

I see only one champion on there that people legitimately bought QSS for that will no longer be affected by it.

That's probably because the people you see are morons.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the average bronze 4 player doesn't know they can item 3140 Kalista stacks once it reaches "lethal." And then force her to blow her E doing only one stacks worth of damage and then killing her.

ModWulf Helhammer2 votes

I don't even see pros use QSS to remove Kali spears, because usually when they bought the item, it was for a much worse scenario then an ADC auto attacking them, and using the cooldown to remove spears is a bad idea.

What do people use QSS for against (actually, like, this was the reason they bought it) for most of those champions? Usually, the solution to to that CC is to just not be hit by it, or to get out. You might get it for Cass ult or Ashe arrow, but the majority of the time, the item was bought for Warwick, Malzahar, Lissandra, Fizz, and Zed (and technically Skarner, but nobody plays him). If you were really good, you bought it to get rid of Trundle or Fiora ult

Amélie Cauchemar1 votes

{quoted}

I don't even see pros use QSS to remove Kali spears, because usually when they bought the item, it was for a much worse scenario then an ADC auto attacking them, and using the cooldown to remove spears is a bad idea.

What do people use QSS for against (actually, like, this was the reason they bought it) for most of those champions? Usually, the solution to to that CC is to just not be hit by it, or to get out. You might get it for Cass ult or Ashe arrow, but the majority of the time, the item was bought for Warwick, Malzahar, Lissandra, Fizz, and Zed (and technically Skarner, but nobody plays him). If you were really good, you bought it to get rid of Trundle or Fiora ult

I see QSS used for just about everything where I'm at. I myself use it for basically everything.

I try not to get it if I don't have to. But if I have it, I might as well use it to my advantage.

Sahn Uzal3 votes

First off, They. Their. Kindred is a dual entity, Wolf is a he, lamb is a she. Together they are Kindred.

Kindred is an early game jungler. I'm personally expecting early game junglers to be REALLY strong next patch with the changes to Dragon. If these elemental dragons prove to be strong, and prove to be important to contest early on... what kind of jungler would I want to get controll over the Dragon area? A: Nautilus The tank jungler who has to prey he won't get killed by some cheesy invade at level2 B: Warwick The jungler who basically does not exist untill level 6 C: Kindred The early game monster who can make any jungler their bitch (Nid even more so) D: Khazix The assassin jungler who is feast or famine. He'll propably end up the same as A or C depending on how the game goes.

You get where I'm going, don't you? :P Also, I can see the new Bloodrazor be really good on them :P

Amélie Cauchemar3 votes

[{quoted}](name=SwHc Fenris,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gnwjOTe,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-04-27T21:36:46.143+0000)

First off, They. Their. Kindred is a dual entity, Wolf is a he, lamb is a she. Together they are Kindred.

Kindred is an early game jungler. I'm personally expecting early game junglers to be REALLY strong next patch with the changes to Dragon. If these elemental dragons prove to be strong, and prove to be important to contest early on... what kind of jungler would I want to get controll over the Dragon area? A: Nautilus The tank jungler who has to prey he won't get killed by some cheesy invade at level2 B: Warwick The jungler who basically does not exist untill level 6 C: Kindred The early game monster who can make any jungler their bitch (Nid even more so) D: Khazix The assassin jungler who is feast or famine. He'll propably end up the same as A or C depending on how the game goes.

You get where I'm going, don't you? :P Also, I can see the new Bloodrazor be really good on them :P

Idgaf about the whole they/their aspect. The main character of the theme is Lamb. Wolf is just a moron attached to W.

Anywho, aside from that. Kindred is no longer an early game jungler. She is now a mid game jungler that relies on her enemy team to be even more retarded than they already are.

Jungle clear is too slow and too mana reliant and inconsistent compared to junglers that do more damage, clear faster, tankier, more reliable and consistent and aren't heavily punished.

Her win rate is actually going to plummet back down to around 44%.

Kai Guy1 votes

And E, and part of her passive. Also you start blue side or dont start machete if your doing a clear from krugs, her R still is game changer and over all shes going to likely be fine. Also its generally accepted to call kindred plurals because of lore reasons, also shes a high skill champ so odds are folks with bad mechanics on her will do badly. Hell im one of them.

Amélie Cauchemar1 votes

{quoted}

And E, and part of her passive. Also you start blue side or dont start machete if your doing a clear from krugs, her R still is game changer and over all shes going to likely be fine. Also its generally accepted to call kindred plurals because of lore reasons, also shes a high skill champ so odds are folks with bad mechanics on her will do badly. Hell im one of them.

You don't use machete almost ever anymore.

Her R is "good" but also can ruin the game on her end, and or save the enemy, or be heavily exploited. It's a double edge.

I also don't really care about the lore of this game anymore. I'll call her a she if I feel like it. The butt hurt snowflake teeny boppers can get over it.

I think her win rate is going to plummet back to dog shit and people will proceed to report me for picking her again, just like when Shyvana was strong, and people literally told me to kill myself every game and reported me for picking her. Even if I did win and did do well. I don't want that for Kindred again, and I'm certain that it will in fact happen.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

I really enjoy having a discussion with people, even if it's about a champion that is pretty disgustingly broken right now. But appearently you are not open for discussion, so I'll just leave my downvote here and be gone.

Amélie Cauchemar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=SwHc Fenris,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gnwjOTe,comment-id=000400000001,timestamp=2016-04-27T22:49:59.151+0000)

I really enjoy having a discussion with people, even if it's about a champion that is pretty disgustingly broken right now. But appearently you are not open for discussion, so I'll just leave my downvote here and be gone.

I don't care about bronze opinions.

Sona Ping2 votes

No, kindred is a white Satyr thing that has a damage particle that doesn't disappear on cooldown. I think it is bugged.

/s

Lugg2 votes

Kindred is arguably the strongest jungler in the game right now. She needs nerfs badly. Her clear times are good, she has infinite stacking damage so she never falls off, she can literally do a successful gank at level 2 if she starts red, and she has possibly the best ult in the game. There is no part of the game where Kindred isn't strong.

With the QSS changes, you will see a lot of champs now get gutted. Zed and Malz will get huge nerfs soon because of this. Lee Sin has never been even remotely balanced, so there's nothing new there. The Gragas combo you talked about is very hard to do and can only happen when his flash is up.

Saying that ADCs are now a non-factor is absolutely laughable since they are currently the strongest class in the game. Try winning ANY game at ANY ELO without an ADC.

Amélie Cauchemar1 votes

{quoted}

Kindred is arguably the strongest jungler in the game right now. She needs nerfs badly. Her clear times are good, she has infinite stacking damage so she never falls off, she can literally do a successful gank at level 2 if she starts red, and she has possibly the best ult in the game. There is no part of the game where Kindred isn't strong.

With the QSS changes, you will see a lot of champs now get gutted. Zed and Malz will get huge nerfs soon because of this. Lee Sin has never been even remotely balanced, so there's nothing new there. The Gragas combo you talked about is very hard to do and can only happen when his flash is up.

Saying that ADCs are now a non-factor is absolutely laughable since they are currently the strongest class in the game. Try winning ANY game at ANY ELO without an ADC.

You do realize I cleared bronze with shit like AP Garen in the adc position, right?

They actually are a non factor. Why do you think a lot of pro teams are intentionally rigging themselves to keep their adc 50 million miles away from everything. Because they take too long to wind up. In solo queue they're over glorified turret smashers that rely on the rest of the team to win, and the winning adc only won because he's blatantly better than the other adc, or his team ganked for him repeatedly. That's it.

Lugg1 votes

And that is why the game isn't balanced around Bronze. The fact that you think ADCs are a non factor just illustrates that you really don't understand the game at all. There is a reason that there are "Protect the ADC" team comps, the ADC is the champ that wins the teamfights with sustained damage. Taking objectives is THE most important part of the game and no one does it better than ADCs.

There's a reason that ADCs get the support in their lane.

Faith Breaker1 votes

You're worse then me son, and I'm an asshole.

Kai Guy1 votes
ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Since when can urgot 100->0 you within seconds? Were you doing something strange . . . like not buying items?

Amélie Cauchemar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gnwjOTe,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-04-28T14:58:45.373+0000)

Since when can urgot 100->0 you within seconds? Were you doing something strange . . . like not buying items?

IF he ults you, you get sent into his team, and you die.

But truth be told, Urgot is actually really strong when built properly. He shits on anyone pretty easily when in capable hands.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Ah I see, I was expecting a tale of how he solo-ed someone. When I hear the line '100 to 0 someone' I expect a 1v1 situation, as few can survive 1v5 situations.

Amélie Cauchemar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gnwjOTe,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2016-04-28T20:27:57.834+0000)

Ah I see, I was expecting a tale of how he solo-ed someone. When I hear the line '100 to 0 someone' I expect a 1v1 situation, as few can survive 1v5 situations.

[zombie-nunu-bummed]

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

At least you're not the only one disappointed in riot's direction with the game :/

Amélie Cauchemar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1gnwjOTe,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-28T21:01:00.631+0000)

At least you're not the only one disappointed in riot's direction with the game :/

I'm more amused with the vast majority of these people that can't even get out of bronze calling someone that's in the top 1% retarded, and also was the 700th best Kindred in the world that he doesn't know how to play Kindred.

But no, I haven't been happy with Riot's direction for a long time now.

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