Sick of feeling handicapped as mana mid vs. non-mana mids

Sacred Math·Sep 26, 2018·147 votes·22,119 views

It's an instant handicap taking a mana mid, a la Ryze, against non-mana mid, a la Zed. You're not only constantly micromanaging your mana output, but you will likely have to back to fountain before he does. Just absolutely ridiculous. There is nothing in the game that makes mana regen at least on par with energy champs.

And don't even get me started on yasuo mid, who not only does not have mana or energy, but a double passive to shove down our throats.

195 Comments

flibitydooSep 26, 201891 votes

Inb4 biased assassin mains say "we don't want mindless waveclearing mages mid" while they mindless waveclear mid with their assassin

AtmosphereSep 26, 201814 votes

Zed, Talon, LB, Fizz, Kat, can all clear waves instantly (since their damage needs to be respected) and go roam, but god forbid I play Ryze or Tali(pre q rework) lmao

Sacred MathSep 26, 201818 votes

ryze or fiddle...enjoy the CDs, the hard mana costs, the lack of mobility and roaming and shitty wave clear...let's give all of that to energy and no resource champs like Zed, Yas and Riven.

BestealSep 26, 20184 votes

Ryze huh? Lack or roaming, oh right, R. Hard mana costs, oh right, you build 5000 mana. And you have lack of mobility in favor of point and click cc as well as a billion shields.

Bob the ToastrSep 26, 201817 votes

Yeah, because he has to build mana so he doesn't run out (and his abilities scale with it). Whereas champions like Zed or Yas don't have to worry about mana costs so they can just go straight for damage and lethality or crit, respectively.

LTK KoRoSep 26, 201811 votes

So what's the difference?

Zed builds lethality. He gets more damage and waveclear for that Ryze builds mana. He gets more damage and waveclear for that

Succubús GFSep 26, 20189 votes

If you dont see how crippling it is to play against non mana champs as a mage, then you dont play mid lane

LTK KoRoSep 26, 20186 votes

I have played some Kassadin, TF and Vel'koz during the season, and i never had a problem with being pushed by Zed/Yasuo/Akali. It doesn't feel great to play against these, but you're guys making much bigger problem from it which it actually is.

Also mana is supposed to be a handicap early.

Succubús GFSep 26, 20185 votes

TF is a PISS poor example as his kit gives him mana back. Mana shouldn't handicap someone in a lane in that regard.

Look at mana costs of Syndra Ahri Lux etc. Mages that dont have a way to replenish their mana. and have to back for lost chapter.

In one rotation of ahri vs zed e,q,w is roughly 200 or so mana while zed can do the same with about 160 energy. Energy is restored by every 10 every second.

Yasuo literally punishes almost all immobile mages. It's just a fact.

You really don't know what you are talking about but ok.

LTK KoRoSep 26, 20189 votes

Mana totally should handicap someone in a lane. That's the purpose of the mana: to limit spellspam during the laning.

I saw Lux mana costs. They are fair. Lux mana costs are basically saying "you can't spam E always when it's on CD". And that's good.

Why do you think that mages should be able to waveclear well and have no mana problems since lvl 1? You're saying something about backing for lost chapter. Guess what, you're supposed to be mana gated before first back. Geez

And in mana vs energy comparison people are always missing the point. Energy is better in short trades, like waveclearing. Mana is better in a prolonger fights. Energy is easier to manage in a lane, but mana is more forgiving later on.

Yes, Yasuo counters mages. That's a fact. And there's nothing wrong with it, he was designed to do that. Where we'll go next, complain about Randuins handicapping crits ADCs?

I know what im talking about. And you know too. You're talking about your feelings when playing against energy or manaless champions. But your feelings try to compare apples to oranges.

DuskDaUmbreonSep 26, 20185 votes

And assassins have to build damage so they actually kill people.

Ryze gets damage from his mana. A lot of it, because he also gets item 3040 , which is even more mana>AP scaling.

Everyone else that goes with a Tear route has to suffer with low damage (especially if they go Tear>RoA) until they actually complete item 3003 . Ryze is the only mage who does not have to suffer that low damage period if he goes with that build.

Bob the ToastrSep 26, 20184 votes

Get ready for some math.

He doesn't get as much damage from mana as you might think. Let's say he has a completed and fully stacked item 3040 and item 3027 (I don't know what Ryze mains build).

That means he has about 1800 bonus mana (his abilities scale with bonus mana, not total). His Q scales with 3%, his W scales with 1% and his E scales with 2%. Let's say he gets a short combo off of Q-E-W-Q. That's a total of 9% bonus mana.

That means his combo gets an extra 162 damage. Before resistances. Closer to 120 after resistances.

At about this point in the game, ignite does probably about 300 true damage.

Let's go a bit further and look at the point in the game when has just a tear, like you said: Probably has about 300-500 bonus mana, depending on how stacked the tear is.

That's just 27-45 extra damage before resistances, 20-35 after. Ignite does about 150-200 extra damage at this point.

So no, I wouldn't say he gets a lot of extra damage from his mana.

JohnnyNeverSinsSep 26, 201839 votes

You know what? Zed has energy,Akali has energy,fucking Katarina and that cancer Yasuo DO NOT HAVE ANYTGING,NOT EVEN LONG COOL DOWNS,

GP has mana,Oorn has mana,but you know what? Again FUCKING YASUO DOES NOT HAVE ANY RESOURCES OR CD,NEITHER DOES RIVEN OR GAREN OR GNAR AND THEY DONT EVEN HAVE LONG COOL DOWNS.

It's so frustrating that I need to put effort in what I'm doing because if I miss something there goes 1/4 of my mana and they can just spam and spam and spam without consequences...

At least energy champions have some limits... practically,but those cancers I mentioned not only they don't have,they also have an overloaded kit with dashes,crits and cc..

TheMonkeyKiingSep 26, 20183 votes

Yeah and it makes no sense why graves needs mana to shoot his gun while yasuo needs none despite shooting wind from his blade, shyvana is shooting and blasting fire from her hands and or mouth, renekton is growing into a freaking giant with his ult..... but when nasus grows giant, costs mana.... I hate gnar gaga personally eversince released

BestealSep 26, 20186 votes

I'm sorry, Gnar's 20 second CD Q and E aren't long CDs? Pray tell, wtf is long to you?

JohnnyNeverSinsSep 26, 201812 votes

{quoted}

I'm sorry, Gnar's 20 second CD Q and E aren't long CDs? Pray tell, wtf is long to you?

Yeah true if its lvl 1 and if youre retarded enough and cant catch his Q back well then yeah it is :D And he uses E either to engage or run when getting ganked.

Clockwork MouseSep 26, 20187 votes

I think it is fine for Garen. If he had mana he'd probably never be able to do anything without going OoM. He is constantly spinning and using his Q.

The EcdysiastSep 26, 20183 votes

{quoted}

You know what? Zed has energy,Akali has energy,fucking Katarina and that cancer Yasuo DO NOT HAVE ANYTGING,NOT EVEN LONG COOL DOWNS,

GP has mana,Oorn has mana,but you know what? Again FUCKING YASUO DOES NOT HAVE ANY RESOURCES OR CD,NEITHER DOES RIVEN OR GAREN OR GNAR AND THEY DONT EVEN HAVE LONG COOL DOWNS.

It's so frustrating that I need to put effort in what I'm doing because if I miss something there goes 1/4 of my mana and they can just spam and spam and spam without consequences...

At least energy champions have some limits... practically,but those cancers I mentioned not only they don't have,they also have an overloaded kit with dashes,crits and cc..

Energy is effectively the same as having no resource. Unlike Rage/Fury, you don't have to build it up by fighting. It just refills on its own.

CIaymanSep 26, 201819 votes

I don't have much trouble with Zed, Kat, or Akali Ekko

Or does "mana user" only apply to the one specific scenario you want to bitch about?

MarothennanSep 26, 201811 votes

mana user applies only to whiny mage mains

LTK KoRoSep 26, 20188 votes

We all know mage mains are the most spoiled children in the world, they want to have early game on par with assassins while outscaling them drastically. But i guess assassins are played very often in pro, while mages are borderline useless, yeah?

Daddy AntsSep 26, 201814 votes

[{quoted}](name=LTK KoRo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1Ew2yuGg,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2018-09-26T09:59:44.203+0000)

We all know mage mains are the most spoiled children in the world, they want to have early game on par with assassins while outscaling them drastically. But i guess assassins are played very often in pro, while mages are borderline useless, yeah?

99% of LCS games have a mage mid.

The only Assassin played in competitive really is Akali and that's because she's broken as fuck.

Mage mains were too used to sitting mid and AFK wave clearing all game.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a spell caster having the risk of running out of mana if they don't manage it correctly.

But the self centered Mage mains think otherwise.

SaiannaSep 26, 201811 votes

you know why assassins aren't popular in LCS?

Cause a premade team with communication destroys them. Doesn't mean they are weak. it means the design LOL has for assassins doesn't work beyond solo Q.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a spell caster having the risk of running out of mana if they don't manage it correctly.

How about tell that to Zed xD

LTK KoRoSep 26, 20188 votes

Zed can run out of energy in a extended fight, but let's keep bias up, mages are so bad and so oppressed right now :(

BjørnetjenestenSep 26, 20185 votes

Stop comparing Soloq to LCS, its a different game with a VERY different and much more organized playstyle/meta.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with a spell caster having the risk of running out of mana if they don't manage it correctly.

Tell me what the difference is between Syndra using her basic combo to clear a wave and someone like Zed or Yasuo doing the same thing but basically for free?

Meanwhile syndra scales the same as zed, (maybe worse) while Yasuo completely outscales and counters her kit.

LTK KoRoSep 26, 20183 votes

Where's difference? Yasuo needs to go melee to clear the wave. And as far as i know Zed waveclear have double the Syndra waveclear CD.

Syndra outscales Zed with her aoe 1.5 sec stun. Syndra utility and safety will be always higher than Zed's, while he does a bit more damage. And Yasuo: -isn't assassin -is better than Syndra in 1 vs 1 only (maybe he's better in teamfights where Yasuo team have a wombo combo, but otherwise i'd rather have Syndra in my team)

And there's no point in saying "Yasuo counters Syndra". Counters exist in every role and they can outscale. It changes nothing. Yasuo damage scales better than Syndra, or some other mages, but average Mage have much more utility and safety than Yasuo. And in late game the utility and safety are more important than 200 dps more.

StupaflySep 26, 20185 votes

Only mentioning syndras strengths.

syndra has an aoe stun for utility. Yasuo can block litteraly any projectile, an aoe knockup, an aoe suspension, and a self sheild. I dont think syndra has more utility, damage, or safety when it comes to late game.

SaiannaSep 26, 20187 votes

I think you meant ADCs (or Lee mains).

Mage mains had mana and mana regen nerfed quite alot, but hey, it's fine cause you don't play them so you can talk trash all you want. Logic 11,5/10

VG CrowsSep 26, 201818 votes

It's funny and ironic how Riot addressed mindless waveclearing but ONLY for mages and then nerfed them,meanwhile the likes of cancer Talon Zed Irelia basically waveclear better than mages at all stages of the game now,especially early,forcing people into even MORE uniteractivity and waveclearing since it's so fucking oppressive to get cheesed on mid levels 1-2. Riot Assassin bias anyone?

MarothennanSep 26, 20182 votes

Uhhh, Taliyah is a mage

VG CrowsSep 26, 20185 votes

It should show Talon, not sure why you see Taliyah

Glory97Sep 26, 201817 votes

What if I told you that mana is supposed to be a handicap that non-mana champions don't have?

Mael JadeSep 26, 201816 votes

Ever played Top lane against something like Gnar, Garen, Riven and all the other wonderful "i can use all my abilities without spending anything on then" champions? Tanks tend to go OOM before getting Mana items like item 3110 when trading for longer. They just wait on their cooldowns to use it all again

AlzonSep 26, 20185 votes

And people wonder why item 2033 is so common, especially with biscuits and time warp.

SleepcomaSep 27, 20182 votes

that combo is so strong because it gives you near infinite sustain in lane

Warlord RhinarkSep 26, 201816 votes

Eh. Energy might seem superior to mana in everything, it still has it's disadvantages like not being able to increase the amount of Energy you have, and not being able to get the full effect out of building mana items.

The real problem is resourceless champions that don't have to spend anything. That's annoying.

Sacred MathSep 26, 20186 votes

the problem is early game...if you're a mana champ vs. energy or non-resource champ you HAVE to kill him first or you will have recall first and they will instantly be up in cs, exp and gold...it's an INSTANT handicap

and that handicap isn't reflected in kits....take a Ryze vs. Yasuo mid...Ryze has to resource manage, has ONE passive vs Yasuo's TWO...has longer CDs...no gap close or mobility compared to Yasuo...it's insane.

and this isn't a gripe against Yasuo because he's an extremely well made champion...but the fact that he has so much at his disposal vs. most other mid mana mages is nauseating...and the fact that we don't have reliable early game mana regen just makes that difference even worse....

Warlord RhinarkSep 26, 201812 votes

{quoted}

the problem is early game...if you're a mana champ vs. energy or non-resource champ you HAVE to kill him first or you will have recall first and they will instantly be up in cs, exp and gold...it's an INSTANT handicap

and that handicap isn't reflected in kits....take a Ryze vs. Yasuo mid...Ryze has to resource manage, has ONE passive vs Yasuo's TWO...has longer CDs...no gap close or mobility compared to Yasuo...it's insane.

and this isn't a gripe against Yasuo because he's an extremely well made champion...but the fact that he has so much at his disposal vs. most other mid mana mages is nauseating...and the fact that we don't have reliable early game mana regen just makes that difference even worse....

Yasuo doesn't use Energy though, and I already agreed with you that completely resourceless champions are annoying.

And no, I wouldn't say Yasuo is an "extremely well made champion".

Just because something is hard to play, does not make it well made.

Sacred MathSep 26, 20181 votes

by well made I mean that he's extremely fun and interactive to play with many possibilities for combos...but his kit is absolutely stacked compared to mana based heroes like fiddle, ryze, morg, etc.

Warlord RhinarkSep 26, 20189 votes

{quoted}

by well made I mean that he's extremely fun and interactive to play with many possibilities for combos...but his kit is absolutely stacked compared to mana based heroes like fiddle, ryze, morg, etc.

Being fun and interactive to play does not mean it's well made.

It's well made when it's balanced, doesn't break the game, and isn't the number one most hated champion in the game.

Spank the FoxSep 26, 201814 votes

You chose Ryze as your example?

The champion who’s mana issues disappear after 5-7 minutes because his kit encourages him to build mana?

Lol

Dope SoloSep 26, 201812 votes

Official red position: Eat Zed's shit. Also, https://www.mmobomb.com/news/superdata-league-legends-way-worst-performing-year-since-2014/

Sacred MathSep 26, 201812 votes

and don't talk to me about Zed being a squishy melee, when he's insanely mobile and can harass nonstop from RANGE because he doesn't have to worry about mana or cool downs

or yasuo, who doesn't have to even worry about energy, or cool downs, with infinite mobility, a hard close and a DOUBLE passive.

If you're going to make champs without mana...HIT THEM IN THEIR KITS...OR GIVE US REAL EARLY GAME MANA REGEN.

Spank the FoxSep 26, 20188 votes

Does talking in caps give you super strength or something?