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@Meddler what are you thought on the state of the game in regards to armor vs armor pen?

WinTheWarOnPants··32 votes·2,247 views

There is a massive amount of armor pen in the game now and everyone is getting it. item 3147 item 3156 item 3071 item 3142 item 3036 are all incredibly popular with almost every AD champ either getting most or all of them in their builds. this combo gives 30% armor reduction 45% armor pen, 40 flat pen, and that's not including armor pen runes, mysteries, or abilities. if we do include them you get 40(items)+20(runes)=60 flat, 37% armor pen(30+7(from masteries)), and 45% bonus armor pen. This takes a champ with 300 armor, 100 base and 200 bonus down to !!72 Armor!! and with armor reduction abilities it goes even lower. what are your thoughts? cause it seems a little silly to me. By comparitson there are only 3 true magic pen items being item 3135 item 3151 item 3020 which reaches a total of 30 flat pen+ 35% pen or 50 + 39.55% with runes(which is also a terrible rune page) and masteries. this takes a champ with 300 MR down to 131 MR. the difference is further exaggerated when it is considered that(with few exceptions) magic dmg is dealt in rotations rather than sustain and(with even fewer exceptions) requires mana (sustain dmg or not). I didn't forget about item 3001 item 3091 magic reduction just that item 3001 magic pen requires being close to the target and like maw is situational against AP. no one buys item 3091. but, if you do include being in range with item 3001 then the MR is reduced to 106. Also, you RARELY see someone with all 3 of the true main magic pen let alone all 3 + abysal whereas i see item 3142 item 3147 item 3156 item 3071 item 3036 item 3006 or item 3142 item 3071 item 3147 item 3036 item 3026 item 3006 almost every game it seems(some times on as many as 3-4 champs in one game) Sorry about the MR/magic pen wall of text, but i thought the comparison was worth mentioning. anyway thanks in advance if/when i get a response.

60 Comments

Wolfess15 votes

We need more tankiness. that while turning DOWN tank champ damage. Tank champs should focus on CC, damage soaking and disrupting the enemy team, not be able to go full-burst-damage like they can like malphite that can go high AP and instant-kill most mages and acds with one rotation, or even just one ult and probably one aoe ability.

it almost makes it not worthwhile to take any full-tank champs top any more, it's more worth to take someone like fiora, riven, illaoi who can all just burst people down with 1 or 2 damage items and creates these unbalanced juggernauts or fighters that don't have actual counters to them role-wise and can kill you as fast as assassins. and if someone says shen, people pick him just for the ult and his E can make picks, not because he actually fights well.

Big Lincoln9 votes

Tank champs should focus on CC, damage soaking and disrupting the enemy team, not be able to go full-burst-damage like they can like malphite that can go high AP and instant-kill most mages and acds with one rotation, or even just one ult and probably one aoe ability.

if he's going AP then he isn't a tank anymore. leave nonmeta alone, we've already lost AP sion and poppy, I don't want to lose AP malphite and AP sejuani too

what we need is for flat armor pen to be less effective against tanks. making it apply before % pen/shred would go a good way to remedying it. also giving Cleaver back to fighters and juggernauts by changing it back to lower AD-higher health so that ADCs aren't abusing it.

saying "we need more tankiness" is such a vague idea with no real solution to the problem; how are you going to do that? Give every tank % reduction in their kit but gut their scalings so they can only build tank? That sounds horrible for the game.

Darkomantis1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1EczTFMB,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-09-23T13:08:41.793+0000) what we need is for flat armor pen to be less effective against tanks. making it apply before % pen/shred would go a good way to remedying it.

Nobody wants to go back to the Season 1 or 2 penetration. You may think that it would be beneficial but all it actually does is just make a ton of champions useless and require buffs via excessively high steroids to go up against champions who excel at both penetration and tankiness(Irelia and Olaf).

Wolfess1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1EczTFMB,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-09-23T13:08:41.793+0000)

if he's going AP then he isn't a tank anymore. leave nonmeta alone, we've already lost AP sion and poppy, I don't want to lose AP malphite and AP sejuani too

what we need is for flat armor pen to be less effective against tanks. making it apply before % pen/shred would go a good way to remedying it. also giving Cleaver back to fighters and juggernauts by changing it back to lower AD-higher health so that ADCs aren't abusing it.

saying "we need more tankiness" is such a vague idea with no real solution to the problem; how are you going to do that? Give every tank % reduction in their kit but gut their scalings so they can only build tank? That sounds horrible for the game.

if someone is picking a tanky champ they should be doing so because the tank is picked to be played as a tank, not being picked because they have high base damage and still has high scaling and can bullshit people with insta-burst mage/assassin tier damage.

And i think that's one reason they took down tankiness, because champs shouldn't be doing BOTH jobs at the same time, and since everyone in league wants to get kills, they took down tankiness to make up for the damage.

also not all ADCS are abusing cleaver, only the ones that can make the best use of fast physical damage procs to get the shred stacked fast and early, like lucian. one Q plus one auto after that = three shred procs. I forgot if his ult was magical or physical but if it's physical i'm pretty sure that he can get all procs with just a few hits of that ult and can hit multiple people. Same deal with Mf ult. I remember when Lucian first came out, building triforce first or early for proc harass was the meta, now people want the shred and cdr to get more spells and passive procs in a fight. I think they geared black cleaver too much for juggernaut/top laners who want as FEW damage items as possible to maximize their high AD scaling abilities and then only have to go tanky afte that, like garen, darius, illaoi, wukong and so they can BEAT tanks and not just get out-tanked and out-damaged by absurd tank champs and their high base damages. THEN adcs are lke "oh look, this item is strong because it was adjusted for these dudes, I want this now too because it is now pretty strong in a fight in general"

Big Lincoln1 votes

if someone is picking a tanky champ they should be doing so because the tank is picked to be played as a tank, not being picked because they have high base damage and still has high scaling and can bullshit people with insta-burst mage/assassin tier damage.

if someone is building full AP malphite then they aren't tanky and don't intend to be a tank. AP malph is just a cheese one-shot champion who will usually kill one person in a teamfight and then die after that. It isn't popular enough or strong enough to be problematic; there's no reason to remove it for the few people who enjoy it.

And i think that's one reason they took down tankiness, because champs shouldn't be doing BOTH jobs at the same time, and since everyone in league wants to get kills, they took down tankiness to make up for the damage.

they aren't doing both jobs. Tanks were strong in season 5 because of Cinderhulk and Gromp on top of their base damage; right now, most of the strongest tanks are just bruisers who are abusing tank items and masteries. I hardly see any true tank champions anymore.

Tanks need to have high base damage to compensate for not building damage items. If they have low base then they won't exist, not in lane, not in the jungle, not even as supports.

also not all ADCS are abusing cleaver

ADCs should not be incentivized to build Cleaver at all. at least not without a sacrifice of damage. It was reworked to have a clear purpose as an item for Fighters and Juggernauts, not so Lucian and MF could shred entire teams with monstrous ranged AoE. It should have low AD to compensate for the strength of % shred and the stronger Phage passive. Juggernauts should be able to get by with Cleaver and 1 more AD item just with their high scaling and base; ADCs should have to accept low AD in exchange for the team-value Cleaver gives.

Evewynn1 votes

I'd just like to add that AP Sion is alive and well, perhaps even moreso than he use to be. Even AP Sion has use out of new Q and ult for CC and base damage (especially early game), instead of pretty much having only two abilities.

HazyCloud71 votes

Malphite only needs one AP item to 100-0 carries later on. His AP ratios are absurd. Ult, E, Q, W and maybe an auto and that's a dead adc.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Imo you don't solve the problem by giving tanks even less dmg. There are a few exceptions like zac, seju, tahm who still deal lots of dmg while building tank but in general tanks aren't really a threat dmg wise anymore. You say it yourself: it makes no sense taking a full tank champ top. Because every juggernaught will rip your arse, you will be behind in gold and be as tanky as brand mid with roa. While the juggernaught may lack CC but have high dmg, same or even better tanking thanks to inbuilt self heal/shields and if teamfights are not working they can still splitpush efficiently. I see the direction riot is going and i don't like it. If tanks should focus on CC and being a meatshield they are banished to support in the long run.

k wìx6 votes

Would really like an answer on this as well - +1 Upvote!

I for one, am completely done with item 3147. Sorry, but #@$% that item.

Great Ozymandius1 votes

It's not a bad item in principle, but there is not enough of a tradeoff for building flat armor pen instead of % armor pen. In my opinion, flat armor pen should be changed to armor reduction, the numbers should be reduced, base armor should be reduced, and armor items should grant more armor.

Someone building flat armor pen/reduction should be doing more damage to squishy targets but much less damage to tanks. If the adc builds three flat armor pen items (jhin cough cough) but no percent armor pen items, then tanks should be able to completely shrug off the damage. Currently, tanks take more damage from the flat pen items in the early game after one armor item, take similar damage after building two armor items, and take only slightly damage after building three armor items. The current flat armor pen items are not sufficiently specialized at killing squishies.

Requiemsfire5 votes

People berate trinity force for being an overloaded stat stick but I somewhat feel that Youmuu's ghostblade is worse in that it provides CDR, AD, Arm Pen, relatively cheaper to build for an early power spike in terms of raw damage and an AS/MS steroid.

Supreme Senpai692 votes

Still no idea why it gives CDR.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

What else could it build out of? It built out of Brutalizer which was split into Caufield's and Dirk. Can't change Caufield's without affecting other items and they can't just remove the CDR. It'd have to be removed from GB's recipe and replaced.

Supreme Senpai691 votes

Yea, I'd rather it be that way, but maybe its just me

Spaceman5pff1 votes

The only issue with this, is that it used to have a wierd build path (Avarice Blade?) Most of the champs that wanted it didn't want one of it's components. Also, now, part of the identity of Ghostblade is that it is SUPER easy to build. I personally like that alot, and would rather see power shifted from the stats into the active and maintain the smooth build path. If we remove Caulfield's from the path, what goes in? item 1037 ew clunky item 1038 eeehhh hard to rush.

TBH the only thing that would be even remotely possible without destroying the efficiency of building it would be a item 3134 item 3134 recipe, which is just wierd, but falls in line with stats on the item (if we remove cdr from it)

Sire Hippington1 votes

Because it's ment for ad-casters, which need cdr? The bigger question is why it gives a 40% as steroid for 6sec

Supreme Senpai691 votes

It's meant for AD casters? I don't play a lot of ADC, but I never see it built on things like Corki or Ezreal. I only see it on Jhin. I'd say the mspeed is its core identity here and the CDR feels mostly tacked on. But maybe that's just me

Sire Hippington1 votes

There are also ad champs that aren't ranged... i know, it sounds crazy, why would anyone want to play a melee if he could get range instead, but they do exist, and they are generally casters, since beeing AA based as melee sucks, and They DO use yomuu's...a lot.

Garen JarvanIV Khazix LeeSin Pantheon Zed Talon Riven and many more....

HateDaddy4 votes

Please tell me what ADC builds every single flat pen item + BC. You might see 2 flat pen items at most then maybe a BC.

Also, the armor pen build is basically dead on most carries. The best performing carries right now are the ones running standard crit build. It still does well on Jhin and MF but MF is basically a press R build and Jhin has ungodly synergy with flat pen. Outside of that, you're seeing the standard crit build prevailing again.

Great Ozymandius1 votes

A teammate can build the black cleaver because it stacks on the target not from the attacker. For example, if garen has black cleaver and spins in the enemy team, the entire enemy team will have their armor reduced 30%, which garen's team can take advantage of.

HateDaddy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Great Ozymandius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1EczTFMB,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2016-09-24T02:04:08.603+0000)

A teammate can build the black cleaver because it stacks on the target not from the attacker. For example, if garen has black cleaver and spins in the enemy team, the entire enemy team will have their armor reduced 30%, which garen's team can take advantage of.

Garen would never be in the middle of your team because he'd be kited and peeled.

And generally bruisers who run black cleaver aren't focusing tanks.

The Governer1 votes

The OP even got the numbers wrong regardless (far off from actual results). No point in convince them to get out of "armor penetration > magic penetration" illusion.

My post here shows the correct calculations and as you can see the numbers aren't that far off: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/1EczTFMB-meddler-what-are-you-thought-on-the-state-of-the-game-in-regards-to-armor-vs-armor-pen?comment=0010

The Governer4 votes

Percentage armor reduction and armor penetration stacks multiplicatively. Depending on whether or not it is total armor penetration or bonus penetration all these armor penetration apply accordingly to base armor and total armor. Also note the difference between armor penetration and armor reduction. Armor reduction actually reduces armor so it increases physical damage dealt by everyone on his/her team while armor penetration "artificially reduces" armor for the wielder of armor penetration so only the wielder deals increased physical damage.

If someone builds these items item 3142 item 3147 item 3156 item 3071 item 3036 item 3006, and is able to stack up armor reduction from the Black Cleaver to 6 times on an enemy champion (which is tough on most adcs because they have to focus whoever is the closest, unless you are MissFortune Lucian , etc...). That enemy champion will have both their base armor and bonus armor reduced by 30%.

Total armor= 0.7x + 0.7y, where x is base armor and y is bonus armor

7% armor penetration comes into play, but this time only the wielder benefits from it:

Total (artificial) armor = O.7(0.93)x + 0.7(0.93)y

45% bonus armor penetration from whatever Last Whisper upgrade we have:

Total (artificial) armor = 0.7(0.93)x + 0.7(0.93)(0.55)y

And then flat armor penetration comes into play:

Total (artificial) armor = 0.7(0.93)x + 0.7(0.93)(0.55)y - (20+10+10)

If we use your example, someone with 100 base armor and 200 bonus armor, his/her resultant armor should be

0.7(0.93)(100) + 0.7(0.93)(0.55)(200) - 40 = 96.71

Stacking multiple percentage armor penetration and percentage armor reduction items/abilities/passives together would only result in diminished value compared to the hypothetical situation where they stack up additively. Sure it still reduces a crap ton of armor, both literally and artificially, but the wielder has to damage the same target 6 times. Having 200 bonus armor late game means that this enemy under attack is most likely a bruiser (ignoring the fact only some of the true tanks have 100-ish base armor in late game and they will most likely build more armor than that anyways and have some sort armor/defensive steroid even if they build only 200 bonus armor). If someone with these items/runes/masteries is allowed to burst bruisers without getting retaliated by gap closers/cc/peeling/escapes from the enemy team to prevent them from stacking the Black Cleaver, it's utterly unrealistic unless you are talking about extremely low elo players and new players. For true tanks to get armor shredded by the Black Cleaver 6 times (with also more armor than that), the wielder of these items would most likely be eaten alive by the rest of the team, given how the tanks are most likely on top of him/her. On top of that, the less bonus armor an enemy has, the more diminished the value of this build is. You only most often see this build when the wielder is facing a very tanky enemy team (Braum Rammus Malphite Taric ), you won't see someone build both item 3036 / item 3033 and item 3071 against tankish bruisers because it's not very effective against them.

As for your magic reduction/penetration formula (the relationship between magic reduction and magic penetration works just like that between armor reduction and armor penetration), I will just do a quick calculation (counting runes in a realistic view and masteries and assuming the wielder of item 3001 item 3135 item 3020 item 3151 is level 18 and takes Cunning tree in their mastery page and unrealistically someone has 100 base magic resistance... <on a quick note, the highest base magic resistance a champion can have is 53.4, which is way lower than the highest base armor obtainable>):

Total resultant (artificial) magic resistance = (100 - 8.333)(0.65) + (200 - 16.667)(0.65) - 7.83 - 8.4 - 30 = 132.52

If we have item 3091 as well and it's also fully stacked on a target, Total resultant (artificial) magic resistance = (100 - 16.667)(0.65) + (200 - 33.333)(0.65) - 7.83 - 8.4 - 30 = 116.27

If the wielder takes Ferocity tree instead (Brand Swain Karthus), Total resultant (artificial) magic resistance = (100 - 8.333)(0.93)(0.65) + (200 - 16.667)(0.93)(0.65) - 7.83 - 30 = 128.4075 If the wielder have item 3091 fully stacked on a target and take ferocity tree, Total resultant (artificial) magic resistance = (100 - 16.667)(0.93)(0.65) + (200 - 33.333)(0.93)(0.65) - 7.83 - 30 = 113.295

Honestly even if we don't include Wit's End, the numbers of magic resistance and armor are not that far off from each other, not to mention how most mages have more burst damage than AD champions (some are more so than others like Veigar ) and CC to allow them to deal even more magic damage and do more spell rotations. Many mages are more CC-packed than ADCs and some bruisers as well. It's also not plausible for one to stack 200 bonus magic resistance unless they build 4 or more magic resistance items (which makes the only ones capable of doing so tanks) and it is also practically impossible for one to have 100 base magic resistance. Also having more magic resistance means percentage magic penetration will be more effective on them, compared to bonus armor penetration from item 3036 item 3033, as it penetrates both base magic resistance and bonus magic resistance. Mages also stack more AP than AD champions stacking AD. Most FOTM mages either have high AP ratios (for burst damage) or consistent magic damage packed with more CC to allow them to actually deal more damage in a spell rotation than an ADC/bruiser will. If they aren't focused down or they are pseudo-tanky mages (Rumble AurelionSol Swain, etc...), they are more destructive than an ADC with their (AOE) CC and damage once they get into range, hence there are more armor reduction/penetration options than magic reduction/penetration options.

There are always exceptions to the above statements, but all in all I think armor penetration is in a good spot right now.

##TL;DR Please understand how armor/magic reduction/penetration work before commenting on the issue.

#(Realistically speaking, magic resistance should be treated this way,

#For mages who take Cunning tree, #Total resultant (artificial) magic resistance = (53.4 <highest base magic resistance obtainable> - 5.268)(0.65) + (200 - 19.732)(0.65) - 7.83 - 8.4 - 15 or 30 = 117.23 or 102.23

#For mages who take Ferocity tree, #Total resultant (artifical) magic resistance = (53.4 - 5.268)(0.93)(0.65) + (200 - 19.732)(0.93)(0.65) - 7.83 - 15 or 30 <most likely 30 because most mages using Ferocity tree make use of item 3151 as well> = 115.2378 or 100.2378

#The numbers are not as far off as you think they are compared to armor...)

TerranHybrid2 votes

I will not claim to have the right answer, but my thoughts on this would relate to how absurdly high AP goes compared to AD. I've seen a Veigar topping 2000 AP in an extended game. Though Veigar himself is a special case, you'll be hard pressed to find any ADC that can top 500 AD even with a full boat, instead relying on armor penetration and attack speed over the brute single shot power of AP champions. AP vs. MR and AD vs. Armor feel fairly balanced right now numbers wise. Stacking armor is easier than stacking MR. Stacking Armor Pen is easier than stacking MPen. But both cases sacrifice something else to achieve it.

MunchCrunchLunch8 votes

jhin can top 800 ad

Spaceman5pff1 votes

Unique case as he cannot increase his attack speed.

MunchCrunchLunch3 votes

yeah but he can auto you for 60% of your hp.

Spaceman5pff2 votes

Right, and in that amount of time, another ADC can auto two times and do just as much.

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

you forget that your first auto doesn't care about your attack speed and has no delay. the other adc would have to stay longer. put their self in more risk to land the 2nd auto.

also they don't have an execute. and high scaling long range abilities. and cc

RavenMagus10 votes

That's because AP scales differently from AD.

Yes, the AP stat goes higher, but you forget that every champion in the game has a point-and-click ability that has a 100% AD ratio and a cooldown that can go under a second.

SlntReaper6 votes

Also AA's can crit

ShadowParker1 votes

Heh, not Kalista

RavenMagus1 votes

You know, I knew someone would say that, but... it's also not really true.

Kalista actually has a little greater than normal AD ratio on her autoattacks, rather than less ... if Rend is up. Rend isn't a magical ability that just does infinite damage whenever you press it; it's an extra %AD scaling on her autoattacks that you only see when the button is pushed.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Not really much sacrifice. Two common ones, Maw and Cleaver, provide excellent defense for the damage and utility they provide and all of the Apen items have a respectable AD

MangelinaJolie1 votes

If a Veigar ever gets to that much AP and isn't replacing everything but Deathcap/Voidstaff with tank items...

Talk about a broken tank champion.

TerranHybrid1 votes

Veigar's PEP passive is what makes him special. It takes practice to use it well, but I've seen people turn Veigar into a truly frightening monster.

1000 AP with 3000 HP, 250+ Armor and 200 MR?

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

FinalFlare1 votes

Can't elaborate much. Almost off break at work , but I see it more and a over abundance of Max % hp damage

SteelMankind1 votes

Read a Rioter's post on why % hp damage is healthy for the game. Essentially, if an ability damage-focused champion doesn't have % hp damage, they're only gonna be useful killing squishies, since tanky targets would survive their burst. If that's the case, they have to be REALLY good at reliably killing squishies, since that's all they're good for. This is not fun to play against as the squishy, since it often means an instant grey screen with nothing you could've done to prevent it short of not being there at that time. Talon and Rengar are primary offenders of this sort of champion; any time they're viable, they're incredibly annoying to play against as an ADC because one-shotting from stealth is the only thing they can do.

Giving a champion % hp damage means they can be useful at something besides bursting squishies, so their upfront burst damage to squishy targets doesn't have to be ridiculous for them to be viable.

Furthermore, champions with % hp damage aren't all the tank slayers people make them out to be. With three exceptions, all sources of % hp damage in League are physical or magical, so building armor or magic resistance will reduce the damage you take. So a tank who's itemizing properly should never fear a champion with % hp damage, as long as the tank isn't super behind in gold. The three exceptions? % hp true damage, found exclusively on Fiora, Vayne, and Garen fighting the villian. These champions ARE tank destroyers; this is something the designers intended when creating their kits. They have weaknesses elsewhere in their kits to compensate.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

I don't have a single problem with getting killed by AD champs, lol. Here, try this build for yourself, you'll see that no one can kill you if you play well: item 1401 item 3027 item 3009 item 3512 item 3065 item 3143

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1EczTFMB,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2016-09-23T20:27:32.529+0000)

I don't have a single problem with getting killed by AD champs, lol. Here, try this build for yourself, you'll see that no one can kill you if you play well: item 1401 item 3027 item 3009 item 3512 item 3065 item 3143

That build is awful lmao

ofart1 votes

item 3110 used to be an item. Does it still exist? :D

Great Ozymandius2 votes

What is that? Is that a skin for the new champion I keep hearing about? "Galio", I think?

SteelMankind1 votes

Lol at the people complaining about tanks here. The counter to flat armor pen is actually to buy armor, believe it or not. Not going to take my word for it because I'm Silver? Let me explain, with math.

Each point of armor pen you buy causes the physical damage the target takes to be calculated as if they have one point of armor less. However, point for point, armor is MUCH cheaper than flat armor pen. Like, a lot cheaper. Rengar can buy Duskblade, Ghostblade, and a Serrated Dirk for 7k and get 40 armor pen. Shen can buy Randuins, Tabi, and Sunfire for 7k, and get 140 armor. Rengar will then do damage to Shen as if he only had 100 bonus armor, but guess what? 100 bonus armor is quite a lot, especially when you consider that Shen still has another 60 base armor.

Black Cleaver, Last Whisper, and its upgrades are a different story entirely. Yes, they do kinda shit on armor stacking tanks. From the perspective of a tank player I'd imagine they feel no fun to play against, but I'm sure every AD champ who builds damage would like to be able to solo the tank.

TL;DR: Flat penetration and percentage penetration are different statistics entirely. I believe the OP, and most of the posters in this topic, are saying they're complaining about armor penetration in general when they're really complaining about percentage penetration.

LatetotheRace1 votes

No, the whole concept of full armor pen builds are stupid. OP is highlighting the key items that give flat armor pen, and how they work well not only with each other, but in tandem with % armor pen/shred. Right now riot needs to jack it all down a notch, or simply make it completely nonviable on marksmen.

SteelMankind1 votes

And how many ADC's nowadays are building BC, LW, Ghostblade, and Duskblade/Maw? Pretty much just Lucian, Graves, and Miss Fortune. Lucian's been nerfed, Graves is getting nerfed next patch, and MF is immobile and can't move while channeling her ult, so the damage is justified.

The main offender of the armor pen build for ADCs is Jhin, who certainly doesn't get BC, and only occasionally gets LW.

Kyovulpes1 votes

No more Raid-boss tanks please. I had a voli bear face tank my entire ult as full armor pen MissFortune even with item 3033 . Tanky characters are aids cause they cause Omni heal exists and a lot of there dmg comes stack more of a stupid stat like health. As an Adc main I hate it when people try to make it seem like we only need item 3033 item 3036 as armor pen items. Give me allllll the armor pen. #Tucktanksinbed2016

Veltox1 votes

If you don't possition properly for your ult you deserve all the damage your gonna get so how about you hop off qq train and realize armor pen is simply busted right now?

Kyovulpes1 votes

He ran through the front line into the back line while still face-tanking my ult but yeah armor pen is the major problem here lmao. Note I said he faced tanked the ENTIRE ult meaning I got off all 12 waves off on him and still couldn't do enough to tear him down even with item 3071 fully applied and item 3033 stopping healing. The problem is there are to many health/armor items that give way to much tankiness while characters who can benefit from the health=more dmg status. So if anything more armor pen is definitely needed in my opinion.

Veltox1 votes

That's just Volibear thing with item 3800 and probably ahead too.

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