Can anyone explain how Zed is a "healthy assassin"?

PseudoCoup·Feb 7, 2015·12 votes·3,172 views

I've been reading the patch notes lately and I'm a little confused. Is Riot MAKING Zed a healthy assassin or do they think he is one ALREADY?

50+% of the time I play a normal draft, Zed is banned. 70+% of the time I play a ranked draft, Zed is banned.

I know I'm in a low tier of play (only Silver 4 last season), but if a champ is banned this often, how can it possibly be considered "healthy"?

Whenever I play against a Zed, it ruins my game experience. Dodges everything, even when you snare him he still escapes, and then your whole team is dead.

Whenever I play with a Zed, it ruins my game experience. If we win, I feel dirty. If we lose (which rarely happens), I feel fine because at least a Zed lost (joking). He just feels like a cheap trick. He really puts the donkey in assassin.

His true claim to fame is he is the only champion in League that truly makes me angry. Livid. Enraged. I almost feel the need to break things whenever I see a Zed chosen because I know its going to ruin the game, and I'm not a person prone to feeling anger.

So please, explain to me how he is healthy. Start a discussion here or link me to one explaining everything about how he is healthy, because I truly believe he is toxic to the community (the champ, not the people playing him). The only way I've ever seen him properly dealt with is a highly coordinated team, where all 5 people are working together. That just isn't going to happen in solo-queue, and he ruins the experience.

46 Comments

Sozan5Feb 7, 201513 votes

Well, let's be honest here - his assassination pattern is rather healthy:

It takes time (leaving your opponent chances to react)
Requires you to hit some skillshots (or the damage is crippled)
Is counterable by some items (Zhonya and QSS)

Of course, it does have its share of small problems (like being rather safe or Botrk active working on his ultimate), but yes - his assassination pattern is healthier than most of the other assassin in the game.

However, Zed as a champion is not healthy at all, mostly for those reasons:

Great waveclear and farming potential at all points of the game. This is usually assassins major weakness - they cannot and shouldn't be able to waveclear well unless they put themselves in risk and waste a major cooldown. It's obviously not the case with Zed. With his Q he can farm safely from pretty much any point of the lane - and he can also use his W,Q,E combo to waveclear from safety. And he have no problems last-hitting under turret either due to his passive.
Poking. Assassin's poke should always be rather weak. Again, Zed thinks otherwise, so he can poke you with his full basic ability combo from around 650 range, and for full damage too. This makes him extremely safe while dealing a lot of safe poke - more than any other assassin (and quite a bit of mages). I think he should have to actually commit to deal full damage (you know... to keep that high risk, high reward type of play that assassins should be known for).
Free AD on his W. Really, I never understood what Riot was thinking when they added it into his kit. It's not like his abilities are weak or scale poorly that he would need a huge boost to AD.
And last but not least, energy costs. Zed's energy costs are incredibly low, making him practically resourceless. Other energy-based champion usually can't even use their entire comboses if they don't proc their energy recovery (Zed does it with ease, and is left with enough energy to use more skills). That would be somewhat okay, if Zed didn't have an energy recovery mechanic to compensate - but he have one and it's one of the (if not the) best ones in the game. You really need to mess up few combos in a row to get out of energy on Zed.

Riot needs to tune down his ability to safely farm and poke, so that he isn't so safe and effective in lane. Oh, and the bonus AD on W should be replaced completely.

Mooing KevFeb 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Well, let's be honest here - his assassination pattern is rather healthy:

It takes time (leaving your opponent chances to react)

Requires you to hit some skillshots (or the damage is crippled)

Is counterable by some items (Zhonya and QSS)

Of course, it does have its share of small problems (like being rather safe or Botrk active working on his ultimate), but yes - his assassination pattern is healthier than most of the other assassin in the game.

However, Zed as a champion is not healthy at all, mostly for those reasons:

Great waveclear and farming potential at all points of the game. This is usually assassins major weakness - they cannot and shouldn't be able to waveclear well unless they put themselves in risk and waste a major cooldown. It's obviously not the case with Zed. With his Q he can farm safely from pretty much any point of the lane - and he can also use his W,Q,E combo to waveclear from safety. And he have no problems last-hitting under turret either due to his passive.

Poking. Assassin's poke should always be rather weak. Again, Zed thinks otherwise, so he can poke you with his full basic ability combo from around 650 range, and for full damage too. This makes him extremely safe while dealing a lot of safe poke - more than any other assassin (and quite a bit of mages). I think he should have to actually commit to deal full damage (you know... to keep that high risk, high reward type of play that assassins should be known for).

Free AD on his W. Really, I never understood what Riot was thinking when they added it into his kit. It's not like his abilities are weak or scale poorly that he would need a huge boost to AD.

And last but not least, energy costs. Zed's energy costs are incredibly low, making him practically resourceless. Other energy-based champion usually can't even use their entire comboses if they don't proc their energy recovery (Zed does it with ease, and is left with enough energy to use more skills). That would be somewhat okay, if Zed didn't have an energy recovery mechanic to compensate - but he have one and it's one of the (if not the) best ones in the game. You really need to mess up few combos in a row to get out of energy on Zed.

Riot needs to tune down his ability to safely farm and poke, so that he isn't so safe and effective in lane. Oh, and the bonus AD on W should be replaced completely.

-I think riot gave him such a good laning phase because it takes more for him to get going compared to other assassins.

-Free AD on W honestly i think is useless. W is often maxed last for his damaging abilities which mean you will be getting bout 2-8 ad from it for the majority of the game or at least the period where zed is most powerful. By the time your w is lvl 3-5 you already should(if fed) have a significant amount of AD where extra 15-25 percent is just an icing on the cake. Whether you have 400 AD or 450 AD I'm pretty sure your target is dead if you know what you're doing. It's like saying why does riven ult give her 20 percent bonus AD? I think it's pretty redundant but it's just there like zed W ad.

-I kinda disagree with the energy part though. A full zed combo rotation at level 7 costs 65+40+50= 155. You only gain back max 40 energy and that's if both your q and e hit from yourself and the shadow. That definitely counts E out because if your own e and shadow e can hit you are way too close. That just leaves your q and it's pretty hard to hit both qs so thats an iffy 20 energy regen. Contrary to popular defeat zeds cannot do their qwe combos as often as they think. If the zed is also using his q to harass you he is sacrificing his safe range farming which means he has to go into melee range to cs which is when you can strike. So either zed harasses you and lose some cs or he cses safely but loses his early kill potential.

ShahamutFeb 7, 20153 votes

{quoted}

If the zed is also using his q to harass you he is sacrificing his safe range farming which means he has to go into melee range to cs which is when you can strike. So either zed harasses you and lose some cs or he cses safely but loses his early kill potential.

I don't know if I agree with this. Im not a good Zed, but I will use my shadow and Q to line up shots that will kill my minion target while also taking a shot at you. Its one of those, if I can I will things. If I am able to zone you back, it doesn't matter that I have to go the the melee minions to kill them, because you are out of reach.

Main point to emphasize, I still think his farming is too safe for as strong as he gets late game.

Kitten of EvilFeb 7, 20156 votes

A full zed combo rotation at level 7 costs 65+40+50= 155.

Okay, let's compare him to some other energy users, shall we?

A full Shen combo (Q W E) costs 210 energy at all levels A full Kennen combo (Q W E) costs 210 energy at level 3, down to 170 at level 18 A full Akali combo (Q W E) costs 200 energy at level 3, down to 160 at level 18 A full Lee Sin combo (Q Q W W E E) costs 240 energy at all levels, though he can easily weave between spells and attacks to recover some. If you're using just Q W E with Lee, it always costs 150, and even then you're missing out on most of his potential.

Doesn't it seem like Zed's combo is kind of a huge outlier? Q W E costs 165 at level 3, and by level 18 it costs 125. Even in the universe of energy-users, Zed's costs are laughably cheap because, like all other energy users, he can recover energy on top of that by using his skills right.

Mooing KevFeb 7, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1EVy0W8U,comment-id=000600000001,timestamp=2015-02-07T22:19:00.322+0000)

Okay, let's compare him to some other energy users, shall we?

A full Shen combo (Q W E) costs 210 energy at all levels A full Kennen combo (Q W E) costs 210 energy at level 3, down to 170 at level 18 A full Akali combo (Q W E) costs 200 energy at level 3, down to 160 at level 18 A full Lee Sin combo (Q Q W W E E) costs 240 energy at all levels, though he can easily weave between spells and attacks to recover some. If you're using just Q W E with Lee, it always costs 150, and even then you're missing out on most of his potential.

Doesn't it seem like Zed's combo is kind of a huge outlier? Q W E costs 165 at level 3, and by level 18 it costs 125. Even in the universe of energy-users, Zed's costs are laughably cheap because, like all other energy users, he can recover energy on top of that by using his skills right.

Hmm i never looked into the energy costs of others so you're right zed's is pretty low. How bout riot reducing energy costs of everyone else while increasing zeds w costs? cuz 55 and 50 seems about rite for his q and e

Kitten of EvilFeb 7, 20151 votes

Right. Shen absolutely needs some cheaper energy costs, Kennen is on the high side of okay (though it's very easy to run out of energy on him because his recovery mechanism -- stunning enemies -- is hard to accomplish). I think increasing Zed's W cost wouldn't be a bad idea, because 20 energy at level 5 is negligible.

SmokingPuffinFeb 7, 201510 votes

Great waveclear and farming potential at all points of the game. This is usually assassins major weakness - they cannot and shouldn't be able to waveclear well unless they put themselves in risk and waste a major cooldown. It's obviously not the case with Zed. With his Q he can farm safely from pretty much any point of the lane - and he can also use his W,Q,E combo to waveclear from safety. And he have no problems last-hitting under turret either due to his passive.

This isn't at all true. Assassins tend to be very good at clearing waves, so they can push and roam. The alternative play pattern is assassins that are really good at dunking the opposing laner, and people tend to hate that gameplay.

Poking. Assassin's poke should always be rather weak. Again, Zed thinks otherwise, so he can poke you with his full basic ability combo from around 650 range, and for full damage too. This makes him extremely safe while dealing a lot of safe poke - more than any other assassin (and quite a bit of mages). I think he should have to actually commit to deal full damage (you know... to keep that high risk, high reward type of play that assassins should be known for).

I don't think this is true of the class, either. LeBlanc, Zed, and Nidalee are all primary: assassin, and it's hard to find better poke than that.

Kitten of EvilFeb 7, 20153 votes

I agree with you regarding poking, but what other assassin has good waveclear? Not Nidalee, Kassadin, Akali, or Kat. Fizz, Leblanc and Talon can waveclear fine, but only by using a lot of mana and (in Leblanc and Fizz's case) an escape move.

SmokingPuffinFeb 7, 20153 votes

Breaking down the primary: assassin champions:

Leblanc Khazix Zed Talon are all easy peasy wave clear champions.

Kassadin Katarina Fizz Nidalee Rengar have no trouble pushing quickly, but can't clear under pressure so well.

Akali Nocturne Shaco are weak wave clearers.

The only class I think is generally better than assassins at waveclear is mages.

Duke AnaxFeb 7, 20152 votes

You forgot MasterYi , great Assassin with great waveclear.

Kitten of EvilFeb 7, 20151 votes

Well, I don't think anyone minds an assassin being forced to choose -- do I want to use this huge amount of mana/use up my escape to clear this minion wave? Or do I want to save it in case a gank comes or I see an opening to dive? So I'd say that yes, LB and Talon have decent waveclear if they choose to, though it comes at the cost of mana and also some of their burst/escape potential. Zed's Q often hits both minions and the enemy, and at any rate is up every 6 seconds (5.4 with Brutalizer). Talon's Rake has a static CD (10 seconds, 9 with Brutalizer), and LB's goes from 18 down to 10 seconds.

Kha and Noc are in the same boat as each other, honestly. Both are generally single-target, and both have an occasional AoE, but Kha's W and Noc's passive aren't reliable for waveclearing. Also, both are junglers, and that comes with its own advantages and disadvantages (mainly gold and XP disadvantage).

Malix FarwinFeb 8, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Breaking down the primary: assassin champions:

are all easy peasy wave clear champions.

have no trouble pushing quickly, but can't clear under pressure so well.

are weak wave clearers.

The only class I think is generally better than assassins at waveclear is mages.

costs Fizz 110 mana to E for around 200 damage at lvl 5 with a pool of 391 mana

costs leblanc 80 mana for around 100 damage at lvl 5 with a pool of 489 mana

Minions have around 515ish hp at lvl 5

Fizz would have to go completely oom to do 2 waves

Leblanc wouldn't even bee able to do 1 wave effectly

Zed could spam and clear without any meaningful cost.

So no those champs do not have "easy wave clear"

funniest part of all is zed can wave clear and poke at the same time

killd0zerFeb 9, 20151 votes

I mean you clearly have never played Fizz or Leblanc if you think they can't wave clear. You don't spend very much of the game at Level 5 so I have no idea why you picked that as the ideal spot of comparison.

Anivia is one of the best wave clear champions in the game, and she definitely can't wipe a wave at level 5. Don't be stupid.

NinjaToad99Feb 7, 20151 votes

I'd say Nid is pretty good at wave clear. Mostly because of her cougar W&E. It does put her in some danger though.

Sozan5Feb 8, 20152 votes

Yes, assassins can waveclear and farm - but all of them have to risk it and even waste a major cooldown:

Khazix Void spike is not spammable for farming (due to mana cost) and have a decent cd (10 seconds). Also, in order to waveclear fast Kha'Zix needs to use Leap on minions (which puts him in risk and wastes a major cd). Fizz He always needs to put himself in risk while farming (since all his abilities leave him in melee range to his target), and again - needs to use a major cooldown to waveclear. Leblanc Incredibly weak waveclear unless she uses Distortion to farm. Also, have very little options to farm under her turret and will lose all her mana if she tries to farm with spells. Talon Well, this guy have decent waveclear and farming, but he will get oom quickly if he tries to do it safely with Rake. Katarina Again, her Q is giving her some ability to farm, however in order to waveclear she needs to get extremely close thus putting herself in quite a bit of risk. Rengar No waveclear whatsoever. He needs to put himself at risk for every minion he kills (and he have to do it one by one unless you max W). Can fix it later with Hydra, but I am focusing mostly on early game here.

While Zed's Q is already pretty good waveclear by itself (low CD, no real cost and deals decent damage), he can also use his W (which is a major cooldown to be fair) and use E->Q to clear waves even better (still from safety).

You see, I don't mind that he have a good waveclear - but he shouldn't have it from that range. If he needed to get close to the minions to clear efficiently then I would have no problems - but he does that better than other assassins and much safer.

As for poke - LeBlanc doesn't have it. Her ranges are rather low and if she wants to poke you - she needs to use her whole combo (which puts her in danger and is generally called trading). As for Nidalee - well... at least her poke can't be also used as farming ability, but yeah - Nidalee kit is poorly designed (Both poke and heal on assassin's kit).

SmokingPuffinFeb 8, 20151 votes

Your take on waveclear is pretty weird. You seem to be worried about what are objectively quite low mana costs. Kha'Zix W is 55-75 mana. Talon W is 60-80. Both of them outdamage Zed Q handily -- Zed Q is only 141 + 60% bonus, while Kha has 200+100% bonus and Talon has 260+120% bonus. Neither has a problem using those buttons every wave if they so choose; to give you an idea here, these buttons are comparable to Xerath or Ziggs Q in terms of cost and damage.

So, in order to waveclear as well as other assassins, Zed has to blow his shadow. That's pretty fair. But then you complain about LeBlanc having to do the same thing. LeBlanc W has basically the same cooldown than Zed W and she gets to press R to do it again every ~30 seconds. What gives? I think you just don't like Zed.

In related news, LeBlanc has the best poke in the game. At level 5, WQE is 1300 range on a 14 second cooldown. By endgame, WRQE is 1900 range on a 24 second cooldown. It's almost impossible to play around and reliably puts unanswered damage on almost any target. Not only is it much stronger than Zed blowing his shadow on WQ harass, it makes Xerath seem like a comfortable lane experience.

I suspect people are complaining about Zed and not LeBlanc because she is seriously hard to play correctly and basically nobody does it in solo queue.

Sozan5Feb 8, 20151 votes

Both Talon and Kha W have significantly higher cd than Zed Q (6s vs 10s on both Talon and Kha W), which is rather important (since if Zed wishes to keep up with Talon and Kha wave clear damage - he can). Also, while you are right that neither Talon nor Kha'Zix don't have problems using their W's on every wave once - it's not enough to do any real waveclear with single use of their W (just like it's not enough for Zed to use a single Q, that's where his short cooldown comes). And neither Talon nor Kha'Zix cannot rely on their Ws to safely last hit majority of minions, if they would try they would go oom rather quickly (if they spam it they will go oom in under 2 minutes. The same applies to Zed (yes, he can spam Q for nearly 2 minutes without losing all energy), but Zed needs 20 seconds to regenerate whole energy while Talon and Kha'Zix need 250 seconds (of course, it's all based on level, I assumed level 5)).

Also, if those were comparable to Xerath's mana cost on Q that would be pretty devastating for both Talon and Kha (80-120 mana on Xerath Q).

No. Zed have to use his W in order to waveclear better than other assassins. He waveclears the same without blowing his W.
LeBlanc W and Zed W have one major difference - Zed doesn't have to swap with his shadow, while LB have to jump right on top of her target - which is taking a risk (not a big one, but if opponent have good reaction time he can punish you for this). And as before - LeBlanc uses mana for it, Zed doesn't.
Again, LeBlanc doesn't have any real poke. The definition of poke is dealing damage without taking risk - while LeBlanc to deal damage have to jump right on you - which is counterable (rather hard if you didn't expect it, but not that hard if you did) and generally puts LB in some risk. Zed doesn't take any more risks than he already did to just W->E,Q you for a good poke at 600 range, decent one at 900 and mediocre at 1450.

And as for me liking Zed or not... To be honest, I am not a big fan of ninjas at all (please, don't kill me :< ), but I do think that a shadow ninja is a good design and even his abilities fit it pretty well (unlike Shen for example, which always seemed like a odd design choice). But from the balance perspective he's simply good in too many areas at once. I mean, assassin with good burst, good waveclear, good farming, good mobility, good poke, good base stats (especially armor always seemed too high for an assassin) and on top of that he doesn't use mana. It's not like he's OP in any of the category, but he lacks any real weaknesses and this makes him OP (jack-of-all-trades champions shouldn't exist in game like this, since they will always be either too good or too weak).

SmokingPuffinFeb 8, 20151 votes

Both Talon and Kha W have significantly higher cd than Zed Q (6s vs 10s on both Talon and Kha W), which is rather important

I don't see how this is important. Waves show up every 30 seconds. Are you suggesting to use two rakes per wave? Seems like a bad play.

Even if you do, two rakes put more damage on a wider cone of minions than three Zed Qs.

Also, if those were comparable to Xerath's mana cost on Q that would be pretty devastating for both Talon and Kha (80-120 mana on Xerath Q).

The point here is that Xerath is an amazing waveclear champion, and these buttons are not significantly worse than his.

Zed doesn't take any more risks than he already did to just W->E,Q you for a good poke at 600 range, decent one at 900 and mediocre at 1450.

LeBlanc WQE is extremely low risk and hits considerably harder than Zed's WQ. It is hard to imagine a safer poke pattern than this, in fact -- even if the jungler is in the perfect spot when you start the combo, it's unlikely they will even touch you because W is just that good.

I'm confused about this 600 range E poke concept. 600 range is within range of approximately every mid's main damage source. I guess it's good against Yasuo if his Q3 isn't up?

Sozan5Feb 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't see how this is important. Waves show up every 30 seconds. Are you suggesting to use two rakes per wave? Seems like a bad play.

Even if you do, two rakes put more damage on a wider cone of minions than three Zed Qs.

This is why it's a problem. Zed can use his Q up to 5 times in between waves with little to no consequence - and if Talon tries to match up with his rake by using it more than once - he will lose too much mana and won't be able to keep up.

LeBlanc WQE is extremely low risk and hits considerably harder than Zed's WQ. It is hard to imagine a safer poke pattern than this, in fact -- even if the jungler is in the perfect spot when you start the combo, it's unlikely they will even touch you because W is just that good.

It's not extremely low risk. You are getting into melee range in order to hit with her W. And if you decide to not hit with her W it becomes safer (and weaker), but it's still decent amount of risk (since there is time to drop some CC on her or otherwise fight back since the removal of the silence).

I'm confused about this 600 range E poke concept. 600 range is within range of approximately every mid's main damage source. I guess it's good against Yasuo if his Q3 isn't up?

Yes, it's rather low range compared to some other mids. I just wanted to point at the fact that he can use full rotation of his basic abilities while being in 600 range (well, actually it's 695) from his target constantly (as in - he can't get more damage out of them even if he is close). No other assassin can do that (LeBlanc have to be in 250 range to damage with her W, which is also a significant portion of her damage - and most of the other assassins have to be even closer).

SmokingPuffinFeb 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This is why it's a problem. Zed can use his Q up to 5 times in between waves with little to no consequence - and if Talon tries to match up with his rake by using it more than once - he will lose too much mana and won't be able to keep up.

The manaless nature of Zed is his main advantage, of course. If he were a mana champion, he'd suck.

Talon can easily arrange for one rake to be enough to clear the wave. Just a matter of positioning and timing. He doesn't really suffer during wave clear, either in the specific Talon/Zed matchup, or more generally against other mids.

It's not extremely low risk. You are getting into melee range in order to hit with her W. And if you decide to not hit with her W it becomes safer (and weaker), but it's still decent amount of risk (since there is time to drop some CC on her or otherwise fight back since the removal of the silence).

You misunderstand. If you're going to go for the melee range trade, you should QWE, not WQE. If you WQE, you're vulnerable to getting outplayed at close range and not proccing the Q2.

WQE is a play pattern that uses W to gap close to Q range and QE to put damage on the target. You're very safe -- you stay within 650 range for less than 1/4 of a second, and you can choose from many angles and two ending positions. It's comparable to Zed's WQ, but it does more damage and comes out quicker.

Yes, it's rather low range compared to some other mids. I just wanted to point at the fact that he can use full rotation of his basic abilities while being in 600 range (well, actually it's 695) from his target constantly (as in - he can't get more damage out of them even if he is close). No other assassin can do that (LeBlanc have to be in 250 range to damage with her W, which is also a significant portion of her damage - and most of the other assassins have to be even closer).

It's true, Zed has a fairly high effective range for an assassin. I just think it's pretty sucky as a poke. The opponent should be wise enough to not be within E range of the shadow, and you're much more likely to use your W to set up Q.

Leti the YetiFeb 7, 20157 votes

assassins arent healthy which is why the standard used to judge zed deems he is healthy :D

Kitten of EvilFeb 7, 20152 votes

He's the healthiest cancer in the game! A skin cancer, maybe?

Troy242621Feb 7, 20156 votes

He's not. I can make a laundry list of why he isn't, but I'm curious to see if he's still heralded by the majority as the epitome of healthy assassin design still. If that's still the case, I'll get crackin' on it.

ShahamutFeb 7, 20156 votes

Just wanted to thank people here for not flaming. One of the better discussions I have read/been a part of in a while :)

Mooing KevFeb 7, 20155 votes

He WAS healthy b4 all these season 5 changes. Right now he is pretty much the same except his laning is super oppressive. His other weaknesses/strengths has not changed. Atm there's only a few picks that can go head to head against zed in lane. Regardless his mid/late game hasn't changed much and you are still often split pushing as zed(which got nerfed a tad bit) since your team fighting isn't the best compared to other mids. He is a low elo stomper cuz a lot of people seem to be uneducated against zed. I see so many people who linger near the shadow, zhonya too early, exhaust too early barrier too early etc etc. Zeds main kill potential early on comes from his ult and there are ways to play around it. Lets say zed just chunked you with his qwe combo. You don't walk near the shadows so he can just swap in and all in you. If your jungler is smart he should know assassins like zed/kat akali etc are snowballers and need early advantage to make a difference cuz their late game impact isn't significant like a mage. Regardless of the top laner asking for ganks the top priority for ganks should be that assassin so he doesn't snow ball. Ganking zeds can be tricky but if you see the opportunity where he harasses with qwe thats when you go in. Another thing, pick lissandra she is the best mage imo to go against zed next to azir and can follow through ganks really well with her massive cc. Some other good picks are malzahar and i personally think katarina is a good pick too because you can outplay average zeds pretty easily with your shunpo. If you have any more questions feel free to ask. I will try to answer it as best as my knowledge of this game can.

Kuroi86Feb 7, 20155 votes

By healthy assassin, Riot means his assassinations leave openings for counter play while still leaving the door open for Zed to out play if he is good and his opponent makes a mistake. This also means he is much less snowbally like Akali, Kat, Talon or Fizz. Less snowbally, he still snowballs, it just takes more kills. He does have things that can be trimmed back, his split pushing and tower pushing for instance has taken the first of what I expect to be quite a few hits. I won't be surprised to see the damage on his Q and E take reductions towards minions or his passive bonus AD decreased, we'll see.

"it ruins my game experience" "Dodges everything, even when you snare him he still escapes, and then your whole team is dead. " "If we win, I feel dirty. If we lose (which rarely happens), I feel fine because at least a Zed lost (joking). He just feels like a cheap trick. He really puts the donkey in assassin." "His true claim to fame is he is the only champion in League that truly makes me angry. Livid. Enraged. I almost feel the need to break things whenever I see a Zed chosen because I know its going to ruin the game, and I'm not a person prone to feeling anger. So please, explain to me how he is healthy. Start a discussion here or link me to one explaining everything about how he is healthy, because I truly believe he is toxic to the community"

And we come to the root of the problem, the mind set that many people have over certain champs. I'm guilty of it too. I groan any time someone picks Teemo. There is nothing I or anyone can do about this. When someone is convinced a flower is blue, telling them it's red is pointless when they still see a blue flower. The only thing I can suggest is to pick the champion up and give him a try yourself. You may see something about him you did not see before.

Kitten of EvilFeb 7, 20152 votes

His incredibly easy waveclear is a huge part of the problem. Sure, he doesn't snowball as hard as Talon, Kat, Akali, or Fizz, but remember, about 20 CS is worth a kill. Kat and Akali have awful waveclear, Fizz and Talon can clear waves but at very high mana cost, so if you can stop them from getting kills, you can stop them from ramping up. Zed cannot be easily stopped because of his easy farming.

NarasimhaFeb 7, 20151 votes

You can also look at it the other way, which I think is what Riot is doing. They're giving him decent farming capabilities because of how low his kill potential is compared to other assassins. Akali snowballs like hell. If you don't focus Kat, she gets a penta. Talon has one of the fastest bursts in the game. Fizz....well, he got nerfed pretty hard.

Kitten of EvilFeb 7, 20151 votes

His multikill potential is less than other assassins, but his single-target kill potential is every bit as high. Your point makes some sense. I hadn't really thought of it from that perspective. Riot could be trying to balance him as a less snowball multi-kill assassin than most of the others.

Kuroi86Feb 8, 20151 votes

Yes, his wave clear is quite good, I expect we'll see it take a hit too since the AS nerf caused many Zeds to begin building more AD and less AS/Crit.

Possibly reduced base damage on his Q and E and maybe a lowering of the bonus AD on his W.

Malix FarwinFeb 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

By healthy assassin, Riot means his assassinations leave openings for counter play while still leaving the door open for Zed to out play if he is good and his opponent makes a mistake. This also means he is much less snowbally like Akali, Kat, Talon or Fizz. Less snowbally, he still snowballs, it just takes more kills. He does have things that can be trimmed back, his split pushing and tower pushing for instance has taken the first of what I expect to be quite a few hits. I won't be surprised to see the damage on his Q and E take reductions towards minions or his passive bonus AD decreased, we'll see. So please, explain to me how he is healthy. Start a discussion here or link me to one explaining everything about how he is healthy, because I truly believe he is toxic to the community"

And we come to the root of the problem, the mind set that many people have over certain champs. I'm guilty of it too. I groan any time someone picks Teemo. There is nothing I or anyone can do about this. When someone is convinced a flower is blue, telling them it's red is pointless when they still see a blue flower. The only thing I can suggest is to pick the champion up and give him a try yourself. You may see something about him you did not see before.

There is no mid in this game that is not more snowbally then fizz(even most tops are).

Handin Out NapsFeb 7, 20154 votes

Check the ban rates he isn't even top 10 anymore. Zed honestly isn't a problem and people are begging to understand that.

SmokingPuffinFeb 7, 20154 votes

I know I'm in a low tier of play (only Silver 4 last season), but if a champ is banned this often, how can it possibly be considered "healthy"?

Healthy doesn't mean balanced. It means the play patterns work well in the game -- they offer clear strengths and weaknesses, play and counterplay.

ShahamutFeb 7, 20153 votes

The only real way to deal with Zed is with some kind of suppression or stun.

I believe that RIOT considers Zed a "healthy" assassin because there is a VERY clear line between those who know how to play him and those who don't. I guess we will call it the skill cap? I dunno.

One problem that I have with Zed has already been addressed (somewhat) in that he was waaaaaay to good at split pushing as strong as he is. I think he is still too strong, but heck, anyone who gets that much AD should be able to split push well.

My other problem is that when laning against him, you can't really deny him farm. Yeah, he's melee, but he has a low cooldown Shuriken throw that deals more than enough damage to farm with, even early. He uses energy, so as long as he doesn't spam like crazy, he is fine. Once he gets his shadow (lvl2) he can now farm safely AND harass you.

This problem could be easily addressed in one of two ways:

1)making his Shuriken's deal less damage to minions/monsters, making it harder for him to last hit with it. The only problem I have with this is that it means he still can harass you hard, and safely. As safe as Zed is, I feel option 2 is better:

Lower the base damage and ratios of his shurikens at lower ranks. Example:

Current: 75 / 115 / 155 / 195 / 235 (+ 100% bonus AD) is his current. with 60% dmg to secondary targets hit.

Suggested Change: 40/90/140/190/240(+80/85/90/95/100% bonus AD) with 60% damage to secondary targets.

This small change would make his early game farming rely more on getting into melee range, while not hurting his late game killing power at all.

I was silver 3 at my best last season, and I always worry when a zed gets picked. Either he will wreck everyone (cuz they really know how to play him) or he does next to nothing.

TLDR: I think Zed is overall in a good spot as far as his having a high skill cap to being able to faceroll enemy teams, but he needs some kind of clear weakness for people to play against. Hurting his early game and making farming a little less safe would be a good place to do so in my opinion.

Mooing KevFeb 7, 20151 votes

I believe that RIOT considers Zed a "healthy" assassin because there is a VERY clear line between those who know how to play him and those who don't. I guess we will call it the skill cap? I dunno.

I agree with this as well. The WR of zed is about 47 percent which means a vast majority probably don't know what they're doing with zed but the small pool who have mastered him can be very scary to go against.

GaleWinUnleashedFeb 7, 20153 votes

He's a healthy assassin in that his all-in burst pattern is mostly acceptable. Except that it's not really an "all-in" at all, as he can simply jump back to his ult shadow regardless of whether he won or lost the fight (hint: he won). That, combined with his excessively safe and easy waveclear and farming, is the problem.

One important thing to note, though, is that he's been this way ever since the change to his ult that made his shadow spawn from the start point rather than behind his target. He hasn't been seriously buffed since that point (in fact I think he was nerfed once or twice, but I can't recall exactly), but when mana regen took a huge hit recently, mages lost their ability to compete with him on even ground. Suddenly Zed and other non-mana champions jumped into the spotlight.

Zed has power in the appropriate places. The issue is that he doesn't stop there; he has power everywhere else too.

MrSc0ttyFeb 7, 20151 votes

Because, I mean...

Imagine if Katarina was overtuned. Or Akali. Or Talon. Or Kassadin. Like, full on point and click boom your dead and I reset and get to kill your whole team, damage enough to clear waves, pre-six not shit.

I'd want to kill myself a whole lot more than zed..

SkiasFeb 7, 20151 votes

A reduction in range would help a lot.

Jungle Lux GodFeb 7, 20151 votes

Zed is considered healthy because he lets you know when he's going to kill you, allowing you time to react to his burst, while his skillshots allow you at least some room to outplay him when he goes in.

Compare this to the other assassins in the game. Talon jumps in and kills you. Akali jumps in and kills you. Katarina jumps in and kills you. You have no time to react to any of these champions when they jump in, and you cannot outplay these champions when they jump in because they don't have significant counterplay to their skillshots.

Obviously, Zed is really strong right now, and that is why you see him banned in every game. You see him banned every game because Zed is bullshit, not because Zed is unhealthy. However, when any of the assassins I just mentioned are strong, you see them banned every game because they are both bullshit and unhealthy.

Kitten of EvilFeb 7, 20151 votes

Katarina and Akali don't even have skillshots, so that's even less counterplay than Talon or Zed.

Jungle Lux GodFeb 8, 20151 votes

Actually, there is just as little counterplay on Talon as there is on Katarina and Akali because the skillshot he has is a cone-targetted ability, which doesn't have a lot of counterplay outside of getting out of its range, which is hard to do when you are slowed by his E and in melee range of him.

I'd argue that Katarina has more counterplay than Talon because Talon's skillshot cannot really be dodged when he engages and Katarina's opponents can interrupt her ultimate.

Malix FarwinFeb 8, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=1EVy0W8U,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2015-02-07T22:07:32.694+0000)

Katarina and Akali don't even have skillshots, so that's even less counterplay than Talon or Zed.

dont have skill shots, must not have counterplay vs. a champ who has skillshots but doesnt matter if he lands them or not

Knight SoIaire Feb 7, 20151 votes

zed isnt healthy he is the healthies we have you should notice the diference and im preety sure that riot keeps tabs on their spelling just in this case

he still needs some work but he is certainly better than the rest of assasins who just need to point their mouse at you to delete you

HawkefireFeb 7, 20151 votes

Honestly the only unhealthy part about Zed is the sheer amount of waveclear he has.

Once that is toned down, he will be fine.

PseudoCoupFeb 8, 20151 votes

Thank you all for the input!

ZahzFeb 8, 20151 votes

Idk how he coudl be considered health when he literally can non stop harass u with his energy without fear of ganks or having trouble wave clearing. He is the only assassin without some form of weakness. All the others seem about twice as squishie, cant do things like split push, cant freely poke, and aretnt taht great at clearng waves till late game. He literally does it all