Skip to content

Shaco in desperate need of some changes/buffs/rework

Suh Shi··50 votes·15,806 views
r/shacomains - LIST OF SHACO BUGS | PLEASE SUBMIT MORE

The link is to a list of a ton of bugs that shaco currently has. On top of this, shaco does almost negligible damage compared to the other assassins. Shaco needs more kills than all other assassins to stay relevant, on top of having to absolutely optimally farm every game. This is all terrible considering how hard his early game was nerfed damaging his ganking potential, and also considering the fact that he does not have a good clear at all. Yes. His first clear is strong, everything after that is horrible. This is because he has no aoe damage, damage reduction, or inherent healing in his kit, This means that you have to build tiamat, or suffer in the jungle because you cannot clear at all. This is horrible considering that if you cant build the item, or even if you do, you need to farm too much. Jungle will actually slap you, lowering your health so much that ganks are near impossible. This is because Shaco doesnt have the ability to force kills anymore like he used to. You deal almost no damage, just provide a small slow OR .5 second fear because of boxes ASSUMING, they dont know how to kill box, walk out of the way of it, or flash it. Plus, on almost all of your ganks, you are so weak that the laner can almost always force a turn and end up just killing you for forcing pressure. Which by the way, to have pressure, you MUST take ignite. It is not really a luxury because he has Q that he gets to take ignite. It is because he has no reliable CC aside from a small slow, so you need the ignite to get a kill. Speaking of things that you have to do to keep pressure, Shaco is one of the only junglers in the game that has to SKIP buying a jungle item to maintain perssure. The jungle item doesn't provide shaco with any useful stats that he couldn't get from another item. It gives him a little more jungle sustain, but the clears are too hard to make it worth buying. Shaco is supposed to be a jungler, but he doesn't function well as one. I get it, stealth is "OP". But really, this is so untrue. I would rather shaco have a stealth something like evelyn, but have more damage and reliable CC like her as well. The stealth is the only thing that makes shaco "okay" as a champion. This is because he literally can only clean up kills on champions below like 25% of their health with his stealth. But yes, in those situations, there is not much they can do. UNLESS, they used their free wards that they get every 60 seconds wisely. Shaco has all these weird trade offs that make no sense. One of the biggest changes that i think shaco NEEDS is a change to his E two-shiv poison. The thing about this E, is that it actually does ABSOLUTELY NO damage. This ability at max level when the enemies are below half of their health, ends up doing somewhere around 120-150 damage. Ryze, who can be 0-3 to my 7-0 on shaco, can use his Q two to three times in almost a 1 seconds window. These Q's will end up doing somewhere around 800-1200 damage total. Yes, its a skillshot, but not if he uses the rest of his kit as a snare and deletes you while you cant move. Seriously, if shaco can get 800-1200 damage off an E, make it a skillshot. Seriously though, why do Shaco Q, W, and E, deal 0 damage when building AD. When you go AP shaco, you at least get a small boost to the damages on these abilities, but most of your gameplay revolves around spending 60 second windows setting up traps that you hope your enemies dont counter with the free item that removes your boxes. Please riot, don't make the shaco community suffer or wait any more. We really need some changes. I get it, you guys don't like the champion and the way he plays. But this doesn't make it okay to leave this champion in such a bad spot for so long. Peruse the Shaco subreddit for even a moment, and realize how everyone thinks he has become so incredibly weak in comparison to before, and how everyone thinks that almost every other assassin to play in the game outshines this champion. We have played this champion for years though, he is fun and fits our playstyle. It's just clear that he is bad compared to the others.

Edit for some proposed changes:

  1. Old passive was more fun, and better in my opinion. It would make it feel like his E and W did more damage, because they would be getting the bonus damage from behind on them as well. Some sort of change to denote that you were getting behind the back hits would be nice though. This shifts some of his power to his abilities while still making his autos feel strong. Also punishes people who just continuously walk away from shaco ganks.
  2. Box changes- Just make sure that they receive their cc immunity that they are supposed to have. Also make sure that they have some sort of AD scaling that is useful. Maybe if you have more AD, make them activated (shooting) longer, or have more HP as well. Maybe even make ad give you CDR on it so that you can have more even though they deal less damage than AP. The biggest and most useful box change, would be adding charges to store up to 2 or 3. This would buff shaco in all builds, and make him feel much better to play. If you play AP, you could go back to lane and set up your boxes so that you were safe without waiting 45 seconds. If you were AD, you would have a little bit more reliable team fight CC, making you a little more useful. You would have a few more boxes overall, meaning that you could use boxes on each of your camps, making you take less damage and giving you a more reasonable clear. This would be awesome since shaco's clear is absolutely horrible, and the change would help him immensely by making it so that you don't come out of camps at 10% health and can actually gank.
  3. E changes - The most important. Make this ability deal real damage. If the changes to passive are reverted, i think this ability would feel better in general. I think this ability needs some sort of actual execute ability. Not an increase in damage for lower hp enemies, but rather have it deal a percentage of missing health as damage. If this is really something that you think is too strong, make it a skillshot. Us shaco players are looking for more fun and interactive gameplay. Less autos, more abilities will make shaco feel more fun.
  4. Ultimate changes- These are the easiest. Honestly, remove boxes from the after ult. We don't like them very much and would rather have something more instead. Maybe add a small fear to when the ult explodes instead of the mini boxes afterwards. Also make the explosion radius actually decent. It is so small it almost always misses if the enemy is just walking, or even kite attacking as any ranged character. If this still feels too strong, just make the clone a little harder to kill. (AND PLEASE MOST OF ALL - FIX THE BUGS) My clone should move or attack when it is supposed to. Randomly it will bug out on champions and dragons after casting. Particularly dragons and barons, if i ult, my clone literally wont move or respond to commands for a few seconds making the duration useless. Also, it wont attack any structures in the game by pressing R. only by Alt right clicking.

Additional Edits For some Suggestions from the comments-

  1. A suggested change was a fear on the E the lasts about 1 second. People think that you should be scared of the scary clown trying to stab you instead of the little jack in the boxes that show up. I would be worried about taking the fear away from the jack in the box since it is so central to the play for AP shaco, but maybe centralizing the fear to like 1 second on jack in the box instead of 2, and making the E deal 1 second of fear as well might add more versatility in who you can fear and when. Another good change for the E might be to make the person nearsighted so that they cannot auto as easily. This would maintain slipperiness of the clown and add some fun new outplay options.
  2. Another proposed change would be to rework Shaco's R in some way so that clones were more accessible. People don't like the shaco shows up behind you with 2 of him and delete you style of play, so i propose something different. Give shaco a clone that deals significantly less damage, but can be summoned more frequently and on average ganks. This way its harder to pinpoint and trade with shaco, but he doesnt burst you as quickly and as hard. This would give him a new skirmish potential, changing his playstyle, but still making him good,
  3. A different ult suggestion would be to make his ult like Specter in Dota 2. He would have a longer Cd, but his ult spawns a clone of him on every enemy champion on the map. The damage the clones would do would be very small, but shaco could swap places with any clone on the map, giving him a better counter gank pressure while also remaining tricky and scaring his opponents.
  4. More propositions include nerfing his Q, and im okay with this. I think changing shaco Q to some sort of seeable stealth or camouflage would be okay if shaco had more options/utility/damage in his kit elsewhere. People believe that shaco Q has too much power. I think that is fine to say and a fine trade off, but i would be sad to see the jump portion of this ability leave. He would still maintain some slipperiness if he teleported, but then went into camouflage.
  5. Other options for Q changes without a rework - Somehow give him some CDR if he kill someone after Q or add a 1 second of movespeed boost or stealth after he gets a kill within a few seconds of stealthing. One of shaco's biggest flaws is that your Q is your only option to engage, but it is basically your only option to escape as well. If you fail to get a kill because you misplanned, or if anything goes not-according-to-plan, then there is nothing you can do but die there like a champ. R is not reliable in any way to escape, even with the ability to R over walls. The problem with the R falls into the category of good on paper, but not good in actuality. There are too many obvious indicators that the clone is the clone, from marks that characters leave on you before you ult, to the simple fact that the clone will take so much damage from one attack that it is clear which is which. All this not including the fact that many characters can just hurt both at once anyways.
  6. More talk about the passive - The passive is really underwhelming because the crit strike is just a mini crit. It basically only makes it slightly more effective than an auto unless you are going AP.
  7. Shaco E at early game is less useful than an auto attack during clear. The time you spent casting to deal 80 damage, is outshine by your 120 damage autos (not including the backstab). More evidence falling into the fact that his clear and his E are bad.

Thank you, and sorry for the rant. I hope for once, someone at riot would reply to this and give the whole community some hope.

101 Comments

SpaghettiVase12 votes

Shaco really needs a full scale rework. He can’t exist in a “decent” state with his play style because he is 100% cheese.

Suh Shi3 votes

I kind of agree with you, but they would have to maintain his fun to play scale. I definitely would be really sad to see much of his kit go.

Eedat10 votes

He needs to have considerable power taken out of his Q to be redistributed into damage. His Q is an extremely powerful normal ability that is consuming too much of his power budget.

Second, Shaco isn't in nearly as bad of a spot as you're letting on. He has a 51%-52% winrate and 4% playrate on u.gg and lolalytics. While by no means am I saying those are really great numbers or that he's really strong, it's nowhere near the dire straits level that you're portraying. What is happening here is that shaco is not as powerful as he was when they let him have a 54% winrate for close to 2 years.

Third, stay away from the 'Xchampmains' subreddits. They are truly awful and the absolute WORST places to discuss balance of a champ period. The vast majority of them are insanely biased, pity party, QQ circlejerks. Ive been to shacomains a few times and that is exactly what it is. Not throwing shade at shaco players either. Like I said, the majority of them are like this

Dont let them drag you down into their hardstuck circlejerk. People are always looking for excuses

Suh Shi5 votes

I think that you are really wrong though. For starters, shaco is only useful in solo queue, and that is often because he can get some cheese in. Second of all, he has skewed win rates in higher elos by roughly 2 people who are keeping his win rate alive. Second of all, if you look at his ALL ELOS option in the website you used (i clicked for reference), then you would see that he actually has a 49% winrate. Especially falling off at higher elos. Second of all, the people who play this champion are almost exclusively mains. People can't pick up and play shaco nearly at all because he requires such highly calculated and optimal gameplay. I also think, just by being an "assassin" although he deals less damage than all the others, he can snowball some wins. Lastly, most of all, the only thing giving him strength is that the "duskblade" item is quite frankly too strong and abusable.

MentalHangukJg6 votes

{quoted}

He needs to have considerable power taken out of his Q to be redistributed into damage. His Q is an extremely powerful normal ability that is consuming too much of his power budget.

Second, Shaco isn't in nearly as bad of a spot as you're letting on. He has a 51%-52% winrate and 4% playrate on u.gg and lolalytics. While by no means am I saying those are really great numbers or that he's really strong, it's nowhere near the dire straits level that you're portraying. What is happening here is that shaco is not as powerful as he was when they let him have a 54% winrate for close to 2 years.

Third, stay away from the 'Xchampmains' subreddits. They are truly awful and the absolute WORST places to discuss balance of a champ period. The vast majority of them are insanely biased, pity party, QQ circlejerks. Ive been to shacomains a few times and that is exactly what it is. Not throwing shade at shaco players either. Like I said, the majority of them are like this

Dont let them drag you down into their hardstuck circlejerk. People are always looking for excuses

I honestly don't know why this is downvoted. Like, asking for bug fixes is fine. It sucks playing a champ that doesn't work the way it's supposed to.

But I'm pretty convinced that shaco mains do not care about balance. We know how one tricks never admit that their champion is busted even if it is, but shaco one tricks take it to a whole new level. In their eyes, 51% winrate with 4% pickrate is somehow "weak". Like they were asking for buffs when shaco was 54% winrate for years! Their excuse for shaco having that high winrate? "B-but oNLy tHe One tRiCks pLaYeD hIm sTfU bRoNziE".

The worst part is listening to their excuses they pull out of their asses trying to justify that Shaco is weak. "B-but muh E do no damage muh champion is not assassin" yes your E doesn't do damage because you crit for extra damage every 3 seconds, doubled when you use your ult which is quite a lot of DPS. If they buff his E then he will just shit on every jungler by bursting them down and out dpsing them. If your chap feels like shit to play because "he is weak, then ask for a vgu. But asking for straight damage buffs for a 51% winrate champion is complete nonsense.

huhndog4 votes

{quoted}

I honestly don't know why this is downvoted. Like, asking for bug fixes is fine. It sucks playing a champ that doesn't work the way it's supposed to.

But I'm pretty convinced that shaco mains do not care about balance. We know how one tricks never admit that their champion is busted even if it is, but shaco one tricks take it to a whole new level. In their eyes, 51% winrate with 4% pickrate is somehow "weak". Like they were asking for buffs when shaco was 54% winrate for years! Their excuse for shaco having that high winrate? "B-but oNLy tHe One tRiCks pLaYeD hIm sTfU bRoNziE".

The worst part is listening to their excuses they pull out of their asses trying to justify that Shaco is weak. "B-but muh E do no damage muh champion is not assassin" yes your E doesn't do damage because you crit for extra damage every 3 seconds, doubled when you use your ult which is quite a lot of DPS. If they buff his E then he will just shit on every jungler by bursting them down and out dpsing them. If your chap feels like shit to play because "he is weak, then ask for a vgu. But asking for straight damage buffs for a 51% winrate champion is complete nonsense.

Your 100% right, but these cultists won't listen to a single word you've said because you don't conform with their circlejerk about how bad their champ is.

This champ is way too cheese focused and should be changed to actually be healthy for the game.

Infernape4 votes

{quoted}

I honestly don't know why this is downvoted. Like, asking for bug fixes is fine. It sucks playing a champ that doesn't work the way it's supposed to.

But I'm pretty convinced that shaco mains do not care about balance. We know how one tricks never admit that their champion is busted even if it is, but shaco one tricks take it to a whole new level. In their eyes, 51% winrate with 4% pickrate is somehow "weak". Like they were asking for buffs when shaco was 54% winrate for years! Their excuse for shaco having that high winrate? "B-but oNLy tHe One tRiCks pLaYeD hIm sTfU bRoNziE".

The worst part is listening to their excuses they pull out of their asses trying to justify that Shaco is weak. "B-but muh E do no damage muh champion is not assassin" yes your E doesn't do damage because you crit for extra damage every 3 seconds, doubled when you use your ult which is quite a lot of DPS. If they buff his E then he will just shit on every jungler by bursting them down and out dpsing them. If your chap feels like shit to play because "he is weak, then ask for a vgu. But asking for straight damage buffs for a 51% winrate champion is complete nonsense.

Look who they're responding to. No offence, but Shaco mains are known to do things like that. Ask for buffs and heavily downvote anyone who doesn't agree with them.

I mean look at when Duskblade got nerfed, "shaco is going to be useless even with the compensation buff!!!1111!!!" they cried. It later turned out that Riot had to nerf him in the very next patch because the compensation buff actually broke him.

Eedat3 votes

Because someone linked this thread in r/shacomains (yes, I actually checked) so the insanely biased, pity party, QQ circlejerk came here and downvoted me.

Now that the wave of shaco mains has past, comments like yours can be upvoted again.

Every single thread you see about Shaco that hits the front page is like this. It's ALWAYS linked on the shaco main reddit so they can come and downvote anyone who disagrees with their bullshit

Suh Shi3 votes

I only downvoted your posts because all you said was stuff about winrates and pickrates when you wouldn't know anything about how he feels gameplay wise given that you haven't played a single league game in months. I even agreed with you about the Q change to make everything else actually do something.

Eedat1 votes

I don't play this account because it has every champ, max rune pages, and enough BE to buy every new champ for the next decade. You think I just randomly climb back to gold for my skin each season after not playing for 11.5 months? I use this account to post here because I've been posting on it for 5 years

Use some common sense. Why would I constantly be posting on the boards of a game I play 2 weeks a year? Lots of people here use dead alt accounts here.

What you're doing is called the 'moving the goalposts' fallacy. You set one set of conditions, but upon learning I was already well past it you just move the goalpost further back.

Suh Shi1 votes

It's not fair to say that because its obvious that i would not know that. Also, if you posted one positive thing instead of only negative things, im sure there would be better reception to the things you say. I would like finer tuning of shaco. I don't believe that winrates are everything, and i don't believe that people who play the champion occasionally understand the frustration of how difficult and unrewarding shaco can be. I added new suggestions to my edits, and i clearly took what you said to heart. I think that it is fine to nerf shaco's q or to change the way his R functions. I understand the frustration of an invisible champion landing on you with 2 of him and deleting a huge chunk of your health. I would rather him have other things and other options or a more versatile ult that gave him the ability to more. Its clear that shaco does not have a well defined role in league of legends at the moment. He isn't good enough at clearing waves or camps to be a split pusher or a farmer, but he also doesn't deal enough damage to be an assassin. He isn't strong enough as a skirmisher, because if he doesn't Q, then he can't get in without taking a crap ton of damage (which is bad given his small health pool), and if he Q's in, then he can't get out if the trade goes poorly. And hes not an effective skirmisher if he cant get out, and hes not an effective assassin to kill you in these encounters. I think its important that you understand these things, and make good points supporting or defending the case without jumping straight to winrates. Examine pantheon for example, he has pretty good winrates, but pantheon mains have wanted tuning and changes for a long time.

Eedat2 votes

Negative things? Anything that doesn't agree with you is negative? I was quite civil. I didn't post some dumb shìt like sHaCo AcTuAlLy Op StFu NeRd. I simply said that Shaco is doing pretty ok. Not great, not trash and that he could have more damage if his Q wasn't consuming all of his power budget. But you didn't want to hear it and started quoting bronze and silver stats like come on man and saying how trash he was when he clearly isn't. Im going to say it one more time since it isn't sticking. I am not claiming that Shaco is top tier. I am saying that he is doing just fine and nowhere near to the trash tier you are trying to claim. I am not saying Shaco cannot have more damage. I am saying he has to make room in his power budget for it. I am not saying Shaco can't have any changes. I am saying you can't just throw random buffs at him

Suh Shi1 votes

"I didn't post some dumb shìt like sHaCo AcTuAlLy Op StFu NeRd." Right, this isn't passive aggressive or negative at all. My bad. All you post about is winrates, but winrates don't necessarily reflect healthy conditions. And, i gave in, and agreed with you in ways that the Q could be viewed as overpowered, and edited into my post proposed changes and things about that. You keep arguing that he is doing "just fine" but would it hurt for him to be "doing well". With that logic, i could say things like "pantheon is doing just fine, you don't need to change him - his winrate is rather good" but at the same time, the whole pantheon community agrees that his playstyle is not good and doesn't feel great to . Instead of saying what is OP and what is not, contribute to the discussion by proposing balance changes.

Discord Jester3 votes

Winrate doesnt necesarily indicate if a champ is good or not, nor does the damage that they deal. Look at ryze akali and irelia, who for a long time did stupid damage and had a low winrate. I agree shaco doesnt need to do stupid amounts of damage just simply because if the raw utility in his kit, but theres a difference between wanting his e feel like an actual ability and wanting him to do too much damage (which i agree most shaco mains want for some reason). The most common comparison i see are eve and rengar, who have super defined item spikes and their kits allow them to one shot or come close at 1-2 items where as shaco cant one shot, until roughly 3- 3 1/2 items which alot of times is far too much time to scale. Duskblade on rengar/every other assassin is death whereas on shaco you need greaves—-> tiamat to kill your camps and then duskblade—-> youmuus/trinity to match damage with any other assassin. I dont think its asking for too much that he do equateable damage to other AD assassins since his skill cap is alot higher than most up until youre dummy fed.

Eedat1 votes

And, i gave in, and agreed with you in ways that the Q could be viewed as overpowered

Are you unironically attempting to pull this?

If you think shaco Q is busted, then you are just a bad player

That is in your LAST response of the discussion and where I stopped responding. Yet you're trying to pull this shit about how considerate and open to ideas you were? Unironically? Now I'm going to be passive aggressive. I tried having a civil discussion.

Wow you really gave in and are the victim. Sorry you think a thought out opinion that opposes yours is automatically passive aggressive. Better get another 100 shaco mains in here to continue the circlejerk and downvote everyone who disagrees so you guys can attempt to pass this off as the opinion of the entire community. This has only happened 100 times on here already. You don't even realize that you guys have already made yourselves into a meme on these boards by doing this over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Why? You guys have ruined any and all credibility and support from the rest of this community by doing this so many times. I'm not even talking about the blatant shitpost comments. I'll downvote them to shìt with you guys. But it never stops there. ANY opinion, no matter how reasonable or civil it may be, gets downvoted to shit instantly for not agreeing. WHY? Why can the r/shacomains invasion never be reasonable?

contribute to the discussion by proposing balance changes.

THIS IS WHAT I'VE BEEN DOING SINCE THE FIRST COMMENT. The first part of my first comment is doing EXACTLY this. Did I not say it because you chose to ignore it? How many times do I have to say it? 20?Remove power from his Q so he can gain back damage in the rest of his kit. How is this not a balance suggestion? How is this not a compromise? Isn't more damage what you asked for? Oh, I know exactly why. Because you don't want changes. You just want BUFFS. Please drop the paper thin facade

Suh Shi1 votes

Looks like you just went from passive aggressive to aggressive. You're nearly too aggressive to have a conversation with because the things you say feel really rude and pushy, then, on top of this, you keep trying to beat your ideas into me as facts, even when they necessarily aren't. I'm proposing possibility, while you harp on existing winrates. It's also weird that you bring in the "you guys have done this over and over again". I've made almost no posts on the boards, and have not followed a single shaco post on the boards ever. You haven't said anything new in your last like 9 comments, just the same thing (even though i agreed with it the last 4 times). "you just want buffs, drop the facade." Yes. Yes i do want buffs. The champion is really weak. But, even still, after your first post saying that the Q was too overpowered, i added something into the original post about it via Edits. It's been there for awhile actually. I validated your statement about the Q forever ago. The Q isn't busted, and i think you are crazy for thinking so. You're right though, it does consume a ton of his power budget because people at Riot games probably believe the same thing that you do. i said this earlier:

Onto the other point, i have said this like 15 times already, so it helps to read the rest of the comments. If you all really think that shaco Q is too broken, then i would be alright with it being changed, but i just want him to have real utility in his other abilities that is reliable, or some form of damage that is reliable.

And no. It was never your opinion that i thought was passive aggressive. Its:

I didn't post some dumb shìt like sHaCo AcTuAlLy Op StFu NeRd < But you didn't want to hear it and started quoting bronze and silver stats like come on man and saying how trash he was when he clearly isn't. Im going to say it one more time since it isn't sticking < pity party, QQ circlejerk came here and downvoted me. < Use some common sense. < Third, stay away from the 'Xchampmains' subreddits. They are truly awful and the absolute WORST places to discuss balance of a champ period. The vast majority of them are insanely biased, pity party, QQ circlejerks. Ive been to shacomains a few times and that is exactly what it is. Not throwing shade at shaco players either. Like I said, the majority of them are like this

Dont let them drag you down into their hardstuck circlejerk. People are always looking for excuses <

Looks like you've moved past this, and gone full agressive. You're just typing caps and hatred saying things like i'm making a facade about changes for shaco. No, i think i have been very clear. I believe shaco to be weak, i believe he needs buffs, i believe some buffs could come at changes or nerfs/tweaks to other abilities, i believe that bug fixes would make him significantly better to play and i would consider some of them buffs, and i firmly stand by these points. I opened this discussion as an opportunity for ideas and changes to be presented. You put one suggestion out, i said i didn't agree with you, and also said that i would be okay with it being changed though if the rest of his kit were altered to compensate and feel stronger. You should stop bringing negativity into people's board posts just because you don't like them, then pretending to be a victim after simultaneously having been passive aggressive the whole time.

Eedat2 votes

Yes my man. I spelled it out for you. Just like every single other point I bring up.

Statistics are important because they are:

FACTUAL DATA

They're not the insanely biased opinions of people trying to serve their own self interests. The numbers have no horse in the race. They have no reason to lie or manipulate. They have no agenda. They have nothing to gain or lose. And, since I have to repeat everything multiple times, I will state again that they are FACTUAL DATA that you can draw conclusions from.

Turns out the FACTUAL DATA does not align with your theory that Shaco is a trash tier champion in dire need of buffs. Turns out it might just be one of those insanely biased opinions serving one's own self interests that I mentioned earlier. Turns outs, this part of your opinion is FACTUALLY incorrect. Anyone who proposes even a compromise? hEhE u BaD pLaYeR.

Oh yeah sure, you had zero idea what was going to happen when you invited a hundred shaco mains to the thread. If you wanted an actual discussion, you wouldn't have invited them all in. In doing so, you've shown exactly what you want. An echo chamber for your bias where any and all resistance is completely crushed.

In <1 day this thread will be buried and we can go back to memeing about the next r/shacomains invasion. It's really weird how it's just one specific mains sub that does this more than every other mains sub combined times ten. I'm just going to start blocking everyone that I think is coming over from shacomains so I don't have to deal with the whiny QQ circlejerk over their champ that isn't even bad anymore.

Peace.

Suh Shi1 votes

I have compromised with plenty of opinions that have disagreed. Just been hesitant to comply with you considering how toxic you have been in your posts. Unfortunately, data on win rates is not everything. If win rates were everything, then everyone would LITERALLY just play the best champion. Except, if you haven't noticed, they don't, and people play what they enjoy. Just because the winrates are decent. at about 49% across all elos, and at about 50% in higher elos (except masters which is at 48%) , doesnt mean the champion couldnt be changed to be more fun to play and play against. Plus he has a ton of bugs that i would love to be changed. Also, i'm glad that you have decided to block me and stop replying to the thread because if i could have i wouldve removed you after your second passive agressive post. You came into this thread with the opinion of "ANOTHER SHACO THREAD HAHA CANT WAIT TO BE MEAN AND DOWNVOTE THIS MEME C*****". And because of it, nothing good came out of it. Just argument between you and I, as well as you clearly being upset.

Eedat2 votes

Had to reinstall my boards kit for the blacklist so I gotchu just in time. No shit you would have removed me. Like I said, you just want an echo chamber. Hence why you invited 100 Shaco mains to join the party. Second, at NO point did you ever say anything along the lines of "Shaco may be in a decent place, but I just dont enjoy him". NO. If you had said that, the conversation could have gone a different direction. You just insisted over and over and over and over and over (still are actually) that he is trash and bad and needs buffs to be enjoyable.

When I suggest removing power from his Q to add damage?

NO. SHACO IS BAD

Maybe it'll open up the option of a fun new mechanic or something?

NO. SHACO IS BAD

Hey, the actual data is showing Shaco really isnt bad

NO. SHACO IS BAD

Oh look, one comment suggests just straight up damage buffs and adding hard CC to his E

YES. Wow what a wonderful suggestion! Thanks for contributing! I really value others' opinions when I agree with them no matter what they might be! Look! I'm compromising with so many people hehe!

Suh Shi1 votes

Hey, i just want to clarify a few things about what you said. Did you know that every character in the game can auto a baby krug once and kill it? Are you aware that there are no abilities in the game that cant kill a baby krug except shaco's E? Like, yes our E has utility, but its a 20% slow. I could use red buff for that. Please give it something else, maybe a nearsight, maybe percent missing health damage instead of 50% bonus damage based on if the target has low health. Let's talk about that crit thing now. That crit does 25% more damage than a normal auto attack. 25% of 100 is 25 damage and 200 is 50 damage. An auto dealing 50 more damage from having to position behind someone on a 4 second cooldown is not that great. Rengar ferocity Q doesn't require a backstab, he gets bush jumps, the damage is greater, and it has roughly the same CD. Rengar will hop in, delete your teammate, then kill you too. I just want fairness among the assassins. Okay though, if you think that shaco stealth is too op to give him more stuff, then add something like pyke W or the eyes that rengar R puts above your head, but for the sake of making shaco viable and not a cheese only/are my opponents stupid champion, add some more utility or damage to his kit. Trust me, Shaco Q is not as overpowered as most people believe. With how low his damage is, the ability just pushes him up into the average or slightly below average zone. Anytime you Q in for a kill, shaco has no way to get out afterwards. Yes, it is hard to handle as the opposing team because if you don't have wards you can get beat up, but if you group up and the enemy teams do anything as a reaction, you might just die. Second of all armor items, if ezreal has Iceborn gauntlet or ninja tabis and shaco has 17 kills of gold to ezreal being 0-6. shaco cant deal more than 50% of his health, and ezreal just jumps away. Now add ninja tabi, you wont even get 25% of their health.

MentalHangukJg3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Suh Shi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0y2U3VAK,comment-id=000100010003,timestamp=2019-07-10T16:49:09.984+0000)

Hey, i just want to clarify a few things about what you said. Did you know that every character in the game can auto a baby krug once and kill it? Are you aware that there are no abilities in the game that cant kill a baby krug except shaco's E? Like, yes our E has utility, but its a 20% slow. I could use red buff for that. Please give it something else, maybe a nearsight, maybe percent missing health damage instead of 50% bonus damage based on if the target has low health. Let's talk about that crit thing now. That crit does 25% more damage than a normal auto attack. 25% of 100 is 25 damage and 200 is 50 damage. An auto dealing 50 more damage from having to position behind someone on a 4 second cooldown is not that great. Rengar ferocity Q doesn't require a backstab, he gets bush jumps, the damage is greater, and it has roughly the same CD. Rengar will hop in, delete your teammate, then kill you too. I just want fairness among the assassins. Okay though, if you think that shaco stealth is too op to give him more stuff, then add something like pyke W or the eyes that rengar R puts above your head, but for the sake of making shaco viable and not a cheese only/are my opponents stupid champion, add some more utility or damage to his kit. Trust me, Shaco Q is not as overpowered as most people believe. With how low his damage is, the ability just pushes him up into the average or slightly below average zone. Anytime you Q in for a kill, shaco has no way to get out afterwards. Yes, it is hard to handle as the opposing team because if you don't have wards you can get beat up, but if you group up and the enemy teams do anything as a reaction, you might just die. Second of all armor items, if ezreal has Iceborn gauntlet or ninja tabis and shaco has 17 kills of gold to ezreal being 0-6. shaco cant deal more than 50% of his health, and ezreal just jumps away. Now add ninja tabi, you wont even get 25% of their health.

yes our E has utility, but its a 20% slow. I could use red buff for that.

Why do you even need red buff? Shaco autos slow for 20% when E is up. Did you forget about that?

Please give it something else, maybe a nearsight, maybe percent missing health damage instead of 50% bonus damage based on if the target has low health.Remember what I said about shaco mains not caring about balance? Obviously you don't know how powerful nearsight is. And as I said. Stop asking for straight damage buffs for a 51% winrate champ. It makes you look dumb.

Let's talk about that crit thing now. That crit does 25% more damage than a normal auto attack. 25% of 100 is 25 damage and 200 is 50 damage. An auto dealing 50 more damage from having to position behind someone on a 4 second cooldown is not that great

Yes let's talk about that crit thing. The crit does 30% damage, not 25%. And the cooldown is 3 seconds, not four. You think everyone on the boards is illiterate. It's ok, atleast you tried. And by the way, you don't have to position behind someone to get the crit. Shaco drops his w in a 1v1. The enemy has two choices : stand in place and fight, which means he will get feared and you get freebackstab+ the box hitting him for more damage. The other choice is to run away from the box, which means he shows his back to shaco. You get free backstab + 1-2 free autos, and then you use your Q to get another backstab. I know you are trying really hard to make shaco look weak, but come on. You have to try harder.

Rengar ferocity Q doesn't require a backstab, he gets bush jumps, the damage is greater, and it has roughly the same CD. Rengar will hop in, delete your teammate, then kill you too. I just want fairness among the assassins.

Rengar doesn't have a double AOE fear, he doesn't have up to 4 seconds of invisibility on a basic ability, and his autos don't slow either. He doesn't get to switch tower agro with his R, and fighting against a rengar doesn't involve coinflip, where you either hit the real shaco and he Qs away, or you hit the clone and die. He doesn't have a real escape like shaco does, and is far more vulnerable to invades. I think we should add all of these mechanics to rengar and every other assassin. We should have more fairness amongst the assassins!

Trust me, Shaco Q is not as overpowered as most people believe. With how low his damage is, the ability just pusheo him up into the average or slightly below average zone.

Trust me, shaco has more than enough damage. He just doesn't one shot like that others, because unlike other assassins, he does a lot of dps. The client says that master Yi is an assassin. Does he behave or build like one?

Anytime you Q in for a kill, shaco has no way to get out afterwards

Ding ding! Newsflash! Rengar/Master Yi/Nocturne also have no escapes once they jump into a teamfight. They either get instantly CCed and one shot, or they kill 1/2 people and die. Where is your "fairness amongst assassins" phillosphy now?

Second of all armor items, if ezreal has Iceborn gauntlet or ninja tabis and shaco has 17 kills of gold to ezreal being 0-6. shaco cant deal more than 50% of his health, and ezreal just jumps away. Now add ninja tabi, you wont even get 25% of their health.

Ok first of all, you think shaco is the only assassin who has issues one shotting ezreal? Ok, think about this from ezreal's POV. He buys tabis and Iceborn, which puts him around 140+ armour? Should he be getting one shot by an "assassin" who mostly damage with basic attacks? Will that be fair for him? If shaco one shots an adc with tabis and 150 armour, what about the other adcs who don't buy any defenses? Shouldn't they be allowed to play the game? Or do you think that is unfair as well? "B-But hE jUsT dAshEs aWay" what do you thnk he does when he dashes away from a rengar ulting him? Understand the concept of "counter-picking". The ezreal is a counterpick to most assassins. You deal with it. Or stop playin the game if you think that is unfair.

Reading this whole text of garbage gives you an insight of what shaco mains think balance actually is. You want to be able to do as much damage as a Rengar, have nearsight like Graves, go in and out of teamfights like Akali/Khazix, and be able to instantly 100-0 an adc with gauntlet and tabis, which no other assassin can do. All of this while having the most dps out of all assassins, two aoe fears and R which can dodge almost anything, while also doubling your dps.

Delusional bunch of people. What a joke.

Serika Zero6 votes

My 2 cents as someone that played at most 20 shako games in the past 6 years.

Remove his W and rework it to something else. Also, add fear on his E (like a 0.5 - 1 seconds fear).

Let's be fair here. A crazy clown appears in front of you. What will you be scared or fearful of? A jack in the box? Or the clown throwing a fucking knife at you?

And no, a 0.5-1s point and click fear won't be that devastating. As fiddle has it and it's fucking instant.

As for what could the new w be, the possibilities are limitless. But you'd mostly want a proper aoe ability to deal more damage and aoe clear.

It could be something like jhin's and kata's q, where he throws a ball or something like jugglng. it could be similar to Tham where he could grab a small monster or minion and then throw it for aoe damage and a bonus cc efect on targets hit. It can simply be a second dash that life steals/drains with a bite, it can be as reworked rengar's q where shako would just aoe slash in front of him (it could have an additional 1 second silence along side damage, but without rengar's mini dash). Etc.

Edit: Also idk if this is still a thing but shako used to deal bonus damage to enemies from behind their back. I would exchange this to more dmg from the front and sides. For a similar reason with why his e should fear and now w. and that's, a clown is "scary" when he is behind you? No, it's when it's upfront and visible. Every time people get "mentally" damaged by a clown (due to media control) its when they look at the clown.

And obviously, having bonus dmg towards a target that is running from you is stupid. If they are running they most likely lost the fight. So, if they are running, you gotta give them a chance to run away. Not overkill with more dmg, stupid "win more mechanics". So, instead, you replace it with upfront damage when looking at the target. Increasing jungle clear speed, overall dps, and being more easy to balance as it won't just be a niche that rarely happens. sides extra dmg is from the idea of periferical view.

Cry of the Celts1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0y2U3VAK,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2019-07-10T06:51:28.209+0000)

My 2 cents as someone that played at most 20 shako games in the past 6 years.

Remove his W and rework it to something else. Also, add fear on his E (like a 0.5 - 1 seconds fear).

Let's be fair here. A crazy clown appears in front of you. What will you be scared or fearful of? A jack in the box? Or the clown throwing a fucking knife at you?

And no, a 0.5-1s point and click fear won't be that devastating. As fiddle has it and it's fucking instant.

This is why riot will never listen the board.

1 sec fear on an assassin? So if shaco has a slight advantage he can kill you with absolutely no counterplay.

Butterwood2 votes

Someone's never faced a Nocturne

Suh Shi2 votes

LOL who? i only see shadows Nocturne

Serika Zero1 votes

Lets list assassins: Akali - AoE stun, AoE slow Diana - AoE Knock-up Ekko - AoE stun Evelynn - single target charm Fizz - AoE knock-up Kassadin - just a slow Katarina - No CC Kayn - just a slow Leblanc - single target snare Pyke - AoE stun, single target Grab/Slow Qiyana - Root, stun (i don't know much details) Rengar - Single target slow and snare Shaco - currently: AOE FEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!, and I'm suggesting changing it to single target short duration fear while eliminating win more mechanics like (extra dmg from the back) Talon - AoE Slow MonkeyKing - AoE knock-up Zed - AoE slow

By the looks of it, assassins have CC, some even hard CC. Shako himself having AoE FEAR RIGHT NOW!!!! Do you even play this game?

I didn't mention Nocturne simply because I find that his is more effective as a bruiser right now than an assassin, thx to item 3161 , getting out 2 fears and 2 spell blocks in a single fight.

Suh Shi2 votes

I dont know if i agree with that, considering that shaco's aoe fear takes 2 seconds to arm. This makes it unreliable as a CC item. Secondly, this ability is almost always maxed last because shaco barely functions without leveling stealth at least 3 times, and putting points into E so that you can actually gank people. This means that fear is only .5 seconds long for more than half of the game, probably even longer, and it is unreliable. Sure someone could possibly hit 2 boxes in one fight, giving you like 3 seconds off CC late game, or 1 second early game, but that would also require a lot of planning and also about 30 seconds of setup on your part since the traps take about 16 seconds to recharge, 12 or so with some CDR. You also neglected that Kassadin can stop channels and flash every 3 seconds, and that Kayn has a knockup in darkin form.

Serika Zero1 votes

yeh, and cait's traps take a second to arm and are visible, yet they are still a powerform of CC. traps are highly annoying to deal with, especially invisible ones. Which is why I'm suggesting to remove them from Shako (Getting rid of an frustrating mechanic, and an unreliable one at that) and give him something else while moving a small portion of his fear on another ability (E), making it more reliable, but weaker in terms of effect (as its no longer AoE). So yes, it would be a point and click fear, the most reliable CC from all assassins listed above. But as a downside, its now single target, no longer an AoE. And it would give him some time to "set-up" kills while ganking. Instead of.... walking in his trap. Which btw, its frustrating for the laner that walks in it, and its frustrating for you, the shako player, that they didn't walk in it. As for duration, I was thinking between 0.5 to 1 second. It could be 0.5 forever, from lv 1 to 18, it could be scaling with his ult rank, with his e rank, etc.

I still expect most shako players to max Q first, due to how short lasts otherwise. Kassadin's flash is not a form of CC. And his interruption of channels, i didn't mention it due to how few cancel able channable abilities are in this game. As for Kayn, his darkin form is not his assassin form, and I was simply looking at assassins (targets which are mostly melee and will burst you in 0.1-2 seconds unless you got defensive stats).

Suh Shi2 votes

I like the concept of moving his fear to his E, and i like the justification as well. I think without balancing AP shaco though, he would have nothing for AP anymore if the fear were removed from his boxes. I think that since the fear gets up to 2 seconds, the fear could be centralized to 1 second, then give him one second on his E. I think that cait traps are good though, and the reason for this is the fact that she gets CHARGES. Charges would be an awesome simple mechanic that would improve the game health immensely for shaco. He could play ap and get his trap setup ready when he gets to lane, he could go AD, and have a little more reliable teamfight. Plus, he could go jungle, and have a box for each camp so that he could actually clear without taking so much damage.

Suh Shi2 votes

I like your comments and suggestions about this, i even added some of it to my original post. Thanks for the contributions. Shaco

B0ak5 votes

As a long time Shaco player I agree with everything you have said and would like to add the fact that Shaco got no compensation when tiamat was nerfed.

Suh Shi2 votes

That was a rough hit a long time ago, and his wave clear has been so bad for so long. It's a horrible trade. I can't gank lanes nearly as good as i used to be able to, so now i have to clear camps. BUT camps slap me so bad, i can't go gank at 20% hp after one raptor camp. Especially not after how weakened his early ganks are.

season10balanced5 votes

Fun fact: Shaco had a rework in development a few years back, but it was cancelled by Rito because of a bug interaction with Yas windwall :)

Suh Shi3 votes

It's funny now, considering that yassuo wind wall has been bugged for 2 weeks and still hasn't been fixed. TFT draws too much focus i guess. I think there was something mentioned about pantheon mains getting a change a long time ago too, but instead they have not received anything. ✌

Tuition Fee4 votes

Syndra

Suh Shi2 votes

Shaco

Niehawl4 votes

you have my utmost respect fam. we shaco mains really have been struggling and being patient with riot for far too long, yet they don't seem to care. I hope you're the first step into a bright future for shaco

Suh Shi2 votes

Thanks friend, i appreciate the contribution. I don't want crazy changes, just a small rework to remove some of the cheesiness and inconsistencies. I just want shaco to be slightly more reliable as a carry. Right now its: Gank every 5 seconds, farm a camp inbetween, and play 99% optimally or lose. Lots of other champions have a lot of leeway for what they can do, as well as some room for mistakes. I just want the same treatment.

HyVee3 votes

AP Shaco is best shaco

Suh Shi3 votes

I completely agree, i think AD is more difficult to play and less rewarding. Thanks for the contribution.

Woodakoodashooda2 votes

Fuck shaco and fuck his overly zealous cultist mains.

Suh Shi3 votes

Way to contribute nothing useful to the post. I even stated that i would like things taken away to make other things better. That way people like you would stop getting deleted by 3 second invis shaco, but we would get more damage and play options.

Woodakoodashooda2 votes

No, seriously. I am fucking sick of threads like these popping up that then attract the Shaco zealot mains to it just to thumbs up it and stroke the ego of whoever posted the thread in the first place.

I've seen it repeatedly.

Shaco has the most loyalist main base of all the champions in the entire fucking game.

It's almost as bad as ADC mains whose collective player base seems to possess FAR too much influence over Riot's balance tweaks to the game (if you can call it balance). I'd cover my absolute hatred towards ADC mains, but that's an entirely different rant altogether.

As for Shaco mains, you, like ADC's, are constantly behaving like you're somehow victimized by Riot over how they handle your precious poster boy idol.

Shaco is a toxic monster, but an incredibly difficult one to utilize properly and effectively. And anyone who dedicates the time and energy into perfecting him certainly deserves to reap the rewards of his kit. That said, your collective sense of self-entitlement from what I have personally witnessed is absolutely sickening to me.

Shaco has enjoyed above average success in whatever role he's deployed throughout the years and yet you all act like he needs compensation.

NO HE FUCKING DOESN'T!

[sg-shisa]

Suh Shi4 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35qDz9z6l48 I would highly disagree with you, and i would also like to point out that you didn't entirely read the thread. Many of us agree that things could be taken away from shaco's kit to make him less frustrating to play against, but to make him feel like he does real damage and has more interactive gameplay. You saw a thread about shaco, and you just assumed that it was some post begging for nothing but buffs. People like you keep coming in and providing no facts, no ideas on what could be changed, and just bash the people who play shaco. No one wants their champion to feel like they are unfun to play and like they are insignificant in comparison to the other champions. Yes, in a way, shaco is a toxic monster. Why? Because he has a whole kit of cool abilities that are hard to play against, but they do no damage. So instead, you end up playing against a champion who shows up whenever you have 20% of your health, and he kills you. The average person in league of legends refuses to adapt and learn to play against specific matchups, so, as a result, shaco ends up getting fed versus the people who refuse to change their gameplay. The funny thing though, is that even when shaco is fed, he lacks the same kind of carry potential as any other assassin champion.

Discord Jester2 votes

I feel like all that he needs is like 50 damage/minimum damage on his e and 1.5 seconds on his Q so you dont have to put 3 points in it first.

Suh Shi2 votes

Honestly, that would probably help a lot.

tires2 votes

I’m lowkey a lil scared to comment because I’m low elo and kinda afraid of the forums (pls be nice I am new here) but I wanted to try it anyway. This is an alt though so I guess I can handle any meanery from the Internet on it.

I don’t know a lot about shaco, I’ve played him maybe like 20-30 times across three accounts in the past couple of months, none of which were above silver so like my gameplays might not be the best to go off of. Please forgive me if I make bad noob suggestions, I’ve never seen high elo so I don’t know how those games go.

I kind of like the idea of changing the shaco w from a trap to a skillshot. Currently the trap-in-the-box (pls laugh at my joke I have nothing else going for me in life but bad humor) attacks deal 35/50/65/80/95 (+20% Ability Power) magic damage and makes nearby enemies flee very slowly for 0.5/0.75/1/1.25/1.5 seconds.

While these are helpful for clears and the occasional cheese play, imagine if instead of laying the boxes as traps instead shaco threw these boxes out as like a skill shot (think ahri charm in terms of range). They could detonate to be the same size as jack in the box current range (like an aoe circle), do scaling AP damage, and cause nearby enemies to flee. He could maybe even store up the charges similar to how he can now with the boxes.

Theoretically it sounds more fun to me. I think like it would have to be ~ really ~ fine tuned to keep from becoming super overpowered (storing multiple fears like that would probably be too much cc). Maybe even allow for just one but a lower overall CD on the ability? I dunno I’m not a math whiz but that sounds decent right maybe? Idk

But I think as far as ganks and stuff went, it would be more beneficial for him to have a form of cc that was easier to get off maybe? Which might help some with damage? I dunno. I can’t say much but just wanted to share my w ideas anyway cuz I think shaco is really fun uwu pls don’t hate me

Edit: now that I think about it, I’m honestly not sure if shaco boxes even had a charge thing?? Or if I’m just really dumb lol

Suh Shi3 votes

Shaco could really use some kind of skill shot in his kit, and instead gain some damage. I like the jack in the box as a core mechanic, and unless they fully rework his kit, I'm not sure how they could adjust this ability. Storing multiple charges of his W, would be a great quality of life change because it would help AP shaco top set up his traps, as well as give AD shaco some more utility and damage reduction during his clears. This way you would have boxes for each camp instead of waiting out the CDs. I like the skillshot mechanic, but i think something like this might be better on his E. Throwing the boxes is a really cool concept for AD shaco. The problem is that the "trap in the boxes" are core to AP shaco. I personally would rather riot make him centralized and have one single core build, making him more balanced because they would need to consider both cases for every little change that they make. This way too, they could focus on AD shaco and even add in your idea for the W mechanic. Good ideas, and thanks for contributing.

El Muñoncitos1 votes

He needs a remake and vgu. His q os not that great and he could remove the pity ad ratio/base and hice him ASPD/%armor shred debuff after appears.

His W needs to be like zyra plants/termo srooms with ammo system and adaptative scaling.

Make his E activr skillshot with 250 base lv5+% HP dmg the more the lower.

Make R same but with a passive that gives shaco and clone %ms boost when both are near each other(something like soraka passive) to increase shaco mobility or add passive aspd steroid To him qnd his clone when active(20/30/40)?

Suh Shi2 votes

Honestly i like the way shaco looks, some of his skins are a bit underwhelming (like masked shaco could use a VGU). He absolutely should have an ammo system. I'd make his E a skillshot for many different trade offs. I think that clone change sounds pretty cool, thanks for the contribution.

More from Gameplay

More by Suh Shi