Lethality needs to go.

Ibüprofen·Feb 15, 2017·32 votes·2,060 views

When professional players in the LCS start stacking multiple of the same item just to get more lethality, that alone should clue riot in on how broken this concept is. The early power spike is massive, and thats no counter play because of how easily and fast you can get it, so by the time you get your health and armor items, it's too late. In no way is this the answer to the adc problems, if that was the intention. It has to go. Everybody thinks its just armor pen, but its much worse, it's basically true damage, and assassins snowball so hard off it, same with any other AD. Where once there was some way to deal with an assassin who already has ridiculous burst and mobility, now its impossible. A level 5 lucian shouldnt be able to dash in and nearly one-shot the enemy adc with 2 autoattacks. Full armor/health items should not allow a zed to one-shot me anyway. Wtf is Riot thinking? This has been a horrible idea.

35 Comments

ThePikolFeb 15, 20175 votes

You can't have multiple item 3147 or item 3814 or item 3142 . Their passive is unique, so stacking multiple of the same itme is pointless. You can have one of each

IbüprofenFeb 15, 20173 votes

i forget which LCS game it was but the varus literally stacked them, he didnt care about the passives, just wanted the extra lethality. thats when i figured the stat is OP.

EDIT: he built an extra serrated dirk, the caster were even discussing how he couldnt possibly build it into anything

ThePikolFeb 15, 201710 votes

item 3147 will give you 15 lethality. item 3814 item 3142 will give you 50 lethality item 3134 has unique lethality so you cann add one to get 10 extra lethality, but having multiple of this will still give you only 10.

LankPantsFeb 15, 201710 votes

In the game he's talking about the Varus had item 3147 item 3814 item 3142 and item 3134 . He thought the 10 extra lethality was worth an entire item slot. That's just how powerful the stat is right now.

DreadlocksFeb 15, 20171 votes

People did that with bruitilizer on Rengar and Riven too buddy.

LankPantsFeb 15, 20177 votes

Yes, because Brutaliser was also broken. Having a strong, cheap basic pen item with very good stats on it will always be problematic.

DreadlocksFeb 16, 20171 votes

The only problem with it is people not building items to counter it.

GiantEnemyShacoFeb 16, 20171 votes

Name one item that counters it?

Lethality is designed to destroy champions who can only stack one or two defensive items. Are you as an ADC really going to waste TWO or more items slots on armor when you can't have the health to back it up?

In the traditional sense, ADC's used to build armor to prevent assassins (without armor pen, mind you) from one shotting them.

Assassins were given items that directly counter... the counterplay. Armor penetration on high-AD items removes an ADC's only form of protection versus assassins. ADC's only lose in this exchange. They weren't given anything to help deal with these new lethality assassins. They were just told "Okay, you know how you used to survive versus assassins before? Well, now that doesn't work anymore, good luck."

And it's not only ADC's but anyone who used to build only 1 or 2 defensives (typically one versus AD and the other versus AP.)

Now to get the same protection as before, you need 2 armor items, but that directly leaves you vulnerable to AP. If you build a third defensive item versus AP, then you only have 2 item slots left for damage. You're going to deal no damage and be worthless. You'll live, sure, but you'll be useless while you do it.

DreadlocksFeb 17, 20171 votes

Name one item that counters it?

Just 1?

BakedLotionFeb 16, 20174 votes

huehue look at me i can buy item 1036 early gave and instantly win lane because they all upgrade to lethality items

When ap champs cant even buy more than two item 1052 without feeling bad about it.

TheOnlyJoeFeb 16, 20171 votes

I go 3 amp. tomes quite often on Syndra, it's so underrated. Get three of them on first back for 60 AP (same as Large Rod), and you can efficiently build them into Morello (unlike large rod)

Allows you to have insane kill pressure aswell

BakedLotionFeb 16, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fear the Sphere,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0ZJZgwLP,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2017-02-16T17:27:20.942+0000)

I go 3 amp. tomes quite often on Syndra, it's so underrated. Get three of them on first back for 60 AP (same as Large Rod), and you can efficiently build them into Morello (unlike large rod)

Allows you to have insane kill pressure aswell

Then you lose out on mana regen or cdr. 3 amp for 1.3k gold - 60 AP 1 needless for 1.25k gold - 60 ap

AND this only works on morello. No other item has more than two amplifying tomes, with most only having 1.

Amplifying tome is terrible

Meanwhile long swords 3 long swords for 1050 - 30 AD CAN BUILD INTO ALMOST ANY MIDGAME AD ITEM- UP TO 4 ON SOME ITEMS,3 ON OTHERS, MOST HAVE 2. Also, broken lethality stat.

Pickaxe for 875 - 25 AD

Do you see the problem here?

tldr long swords build into** 1.1k gold** items with MS passives/lethality. amplifying tomes only build into ~800 gold items with ONE passive. Move speed or CDR.

Amplifying tomes also have a hefty combine price for things like deathcap/abyssal/ludens/lichbane/voidstaff/ALOT more. When long swords can be spammed to build items

TheOnlyJoeFeb 17, 20171 votes

And several long swords miss out on lethality or CDR. Going 3 amps gives AP, going 3 longswords gives AD

The only difference is how much longswords are used in some builds, and i agree with that

ForgiveColourFeb 15, 20172 votes

Yeah when lcs is just mages its totally fine

Trump2016TrumpFeb 15, 20172 votes

leathality is ruing the game i can't even play tanks anymore because leathality = true damage so you need to pick assassins to kill assassins god this game is devolving all this happens + the "new" shiity client that feels like a downgrade from legacy.

RexSaurFeb 15, 20174 votes

{quoted}

leathality is ruing the game i can't even play tanks anymore because leathality = true damage so you need to pick assassins to kill assassins god this game is devolving all this happens + the "new" shiity client that feels like a downgrade from legacy.

For the last time, lethality is BAD AGAINST TANKS.

Flat pen = countered by armor stack.

BlåbæretFeb 15, 20174 votes

{quoted}

For the last time, lethality is BAD AGAINST TANKS.

Flat pen = countered by armor stack.

Lol, lethality bad against tanks? Lmao, what game are you playing dude?

MrHaZeYoFeb 16, 20172 votes

League? You can have 90 Leathilty if you'd like but its not gonna phase a tank with a least two standard armor items. If you buy a LW item though then its a different ball game.

BlåbæretFeb 16, 20172 votes

{quoted}

League? You can have 90 Leathilty if you'd like but its not gonna phase a tank with a least two standard armor items. If you buy a LW item though then its a different ball game.

Who doesn't build LW? That on top of perhaps a BC and you might as well be naked.

MrHaZeYoFeb 16, 20171 votes

Idiots, but the argument is Lethility, not LW//BC.

TeCoolMageFeb 16, 20171 votes

90 lethality is 4 items and full runes + masteries

Frozen heart is 90 armour.

Handin Out NapsFeb 15, 20172 votes

I wonder how long its going to take before people realize lethality is bad against tanks, especially early game. Its actually quite funny seeing tank players run around crying about lethality. But you know this is the boards 0% knowledge, 100% circlejerk thats what this place is known for.

its me brnaFeb 16, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I wonder how long its going to take before people realize lethality is bad against tanks, especially early game. Its actually quite funny seeing tank players run around crying about lethality. But you know this is the boards 0% knowledge, 100% circlejerk thats what this place is known for.

It's funny because you look more uneducated about how broken Lethality is. Old Flat Armor pen, yes this was the case.. not anymore. You are living in the past, Lethality is broken against anything because it scales into the game.

Handin Out NapsFeb 16, 20172 votes

Everyone knows lethality is broken, but saying it is good against tanks is a joke. There is a reason why every top laner rushes cleaver vs a tank and not youmuus. There is a reason A youmuus talon or zed will never be able to 1v1 a sunfire Maokai, Poppy or Naut. The fights don't even begin to tilt into the squishy champions favor until they have last whisper and cleaver.

TeCoolMageFeb 16, 20171 votes

90 lethality is 4 items and full runes + masteries

Frozen heart is 90 armour.

FireDrizzleFeb 15, 20171 votes

well you can sell the serated dirk for 770 gold(i belive), putting you 330 gold off a complete item. Not a massive amount, and he will be much stronger than if the slot just has a longsword or something. Selling 2 dorans rings will lose you 480 gold. I'm not defending lethality though, it is too much atm.

Teridax68Feb 15, 20171 votes

Beyond the balance issues tied to Lethality (it used to be really weak, now it's far too strong), I think the stat is just fatally flawed by design. It was intended to be a stat that essentially only assassins would stack in large amounts, which would let them kill squishies in a manner that also let them operate while behind. Whenever Lethality's good, though, it gets stacked by marksmen, who then kill squishies far too quickly, while also stacking it with percent armor reduction to deal high damage to tanks. Its function as flat armor penetration is horribly opaque, but is also so dependent on in-game momentum that it's practically impossible to balance its on-purchase spike properly (it's either too weak to be worth getting in the midgame, or too strong all around). Assassins need to scale with items differently, and I think the issue also lies with marksmen, who will abuse whichever AD build is the most optimal in their current state.

SnowFallFeb 15, 20171 votes

Full armor/health items should not allow a zed to one-shot me anyway. Wtf is Riot thinking? This has been a horrible idea.

I feel like I've heard this some years ago with Arm Pen and old Last Whisper

Snowman ArcFeb 15, 20171 votes

Well, every champion stacks a specific stat because it works for them. Mages stack AP, Tanks stack Armor / MR, ADs now stack Lethality alongside AD. I don't see the problem.

Dominick DestineFeb 15, 20171 votes

Yeah I was initially skeptical about the backlash, but now I realize it was completely correct.

Lethality needs HARD nerfs.

SqwalFeb 16, 20171 votes

Yeah im getting really tired of Pantheon being able to walk up to you q deal a busted amount of damage and walk away unharmed because turret only fired one shot and his passive absorbed it.

I Stealth IFeb 16, 20171 votes

I see your logic here, man but a couple of questions.

If lethality goes, does it bring back normal armour pen?
What about magic pen?
why is lethality so abused?

Ralph LarsFeb 16, 20171 votes

The assassin rework came and made assassins champs spiral out of control. "Oh I know. Let's introduce the 'Lethality' stat into gear in a way it can be abused and snowball out of control" Huzzah, Riot's logic.

Ralph LarsFeb 17, 20171 votes

Ban/Pick rates for champs like Varus, Miss Fortune, Pant, etc skyrocketed for a reason. Marksmen and Bruisers building assassin-oriented gear all thanks to lethelity