Malzahar's ult is incredibly tilting

Asterfix··3 votes·1,752 views

It's on a 15 second CD (with the proper build) and it SUPRESSES for 3 seconds. Which means that's 3 seconds of no matter what I try to do, i'm helpless. Initially it didn't bother me but I've been seeing them pop up more often and it's actually bullshit that he has a 3 second supression ult and still does an INSANE amount of damage. Like, can combo somebody to death with a cooldown centered build. I pray to god I never play a game with malz and veig on the same team double ulting every 30 seconds.

WW also has a supression but it's a skillshot, that you have to land. Skarner's doesn't do any damage and Tahm has to build stacks, as a melee champ, before he can do his and it only lasts 1 second.

So WTF is a carry who has a DOT a silence and a spellshield doing with an instant target supression ult with as little CD as his other abilities?

Solution, Cut the damage or duration in half. That's it. Make it 1.5 seconds or have it not do up to 20-25% maximum health damage + around 350 damage. Or remove the scaling entirely. Or give AD champs a metric ton of CD items and abilities with ridiculously high damage values to compare.

17 Comments

Beacon Academy4 votes

Warwick's Ult is a dash even if it misses & his kit supports that by providing life steal and damage reduction.

Skarner's Ult moves the location of his enemy (And it does do some damage FYI) but can't attack for the duration

Malzahar holds the enemy in place but also holds himself in place


Warwick can be dodged/CC'd

Skarner can be CC'd

Malzahar can be CC'd

All suppressions can be canceled by CC


If you can't deal with a mid range mage who floats in the same place for 2.5 seconds, I don't know what to tell you. You know Malzahar exists. You know he has his ult. If you are ulted by yourself because you didn't communicate with your team and you don't have QSS, that is your fault. Not Malzahar's.

Don't get me wrong. I hate this current Malzahar, but salty threads like these that sound like they don't even try to solve their own issues (And don't even fact check themselves) make my blood boil.


What build would allow Malzahar to have a 15 second CD on Ult out of curiosity?

Tonyob201 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beacon Academy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0KyJIVeN,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-01-18T07:26:26.525+0000)

Warwick's Ult is a dash even if it misses & his kit supports that by providing life steal and damage reduction.

Skarner's Ult moves the location of his enemy (And it does do some damage FYI) but can't attack for the duration

Malzahar holds the enemy in place but also holds himself in place


Warwick can be dodged/CC'd

Skarner can be CC'd

Malzahar can be CC'd

All suppressions can be canceled by CC


If you can't deal with a mid range mage who floats in the same place for 2.5 seconds, I don't know what to tell you. You know Malzahar exists. You know he has his ult. If you are ulted by yourself because you didn't communicate with your team and you don't have QSS, that is your fault. Not Malzahar's.

Don't get me wrong. I hate this current Malzahar, but salty threads like these that sound like they don't even try to solve their own issues (And don't even fact check themselves) make my blood boil.


What build would allow Malzahar to have a 15 second CD on Ult out of curiosity?

Also holds himself in place. Nice keyword, should be a problem but since he usually has the damage to back it up if it's a 1v1 and if it's a teamfight, his team should be peeling for him even if they don't it's a 1 for 1 trade. If malzahar is behind and your mid is ahead and he flash ults your mid who gets killed by their jungler in a teamfight, it's an advantageous situation for them. Who stomped faker at all stars? Malzahar.

Tonyob201 votes

{quoted}

Also holds himself in place. Nice keyword, should be a problem but since he usually has the damage to back it up if it's a 1v1 and if it's a teamfight, his team should be peeling for him even if they don't it's a 1 for 1 trade. If malzahar is behind and your mid is ahead and he flash ults your mid who gets killed by their jungler in a teamfight, it's an advantageous situation for them. Who stomped faker at all stars? Malzahar. Also, it's not just his ult, it's also his waveclear.

INT then ULT4 votes

37 second cooldown.

Stop playing melee champions into Malz.

Tonyob201 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deified ArchLich,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0KyJIVeN,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-01-18T07:31:40.686+0000)

37 second cooldown.

Stop playing melee champions into Malz.

Aka don't play melee champs into ranged champs. Tell me which caster is melee other than kassadin, who is to be exact an anti mage/caster champ. Basically you tell me the only champ you can play kassadin into is katarina or diana. Well, old chap. Let me tell you something, diana's earlygame is so strong that I would never ever recommend playing kassadin into her unless your enemy is a scrub and you know it. And while you can play kassa into katarina, if she by chance gets a kill or two before 10 minutes you've instantly lost the lane. However, put a kassadin up against brand or ziggs and it'll be a different story. Malz is just stupid at the moment, it's not about melee or ranged, that doesn't change his kit.

INT then ULT1 votes

Why are you so fixated on Kassadin? I've had success counterpicking Malz with Lissandra, even though they play similarly. Decent enough pushing power, can kill his voidlings as soon as they come out to push, better roams, and can actually force an engage without blowing flash.

Tonyob201 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deified ArchLich,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0KyJIVeN,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2018-01-18T20:58:42.330+0000)

Why are you so fixated on Kassadin? I've had success counterpicking Malz with Lissandra, even though they play similarly. Decent enough pushing power, can kill his voidlings as soon as they come out to push, better roams, and can actually force an engage without blowing flash.

I'm the worst Lissandra in the world v_v

Tonyob201 votes

Make it a 0.5 second channel. The instant is just stupid. Even cassio's e is not instant.

Tonyob201 votes

{quoted}

Make it a 0.5 second channel. The instant is just stupid. Even cassio's e is not instant.

Kassadin is supposed to counter mages, but he just gets shoved under tower by a champ that doesn't need mana since presence of mind and or manaflow band. If you walk forward to last hit that caster minion with half hp, you're dead. no but's about it. The second you walk forward the e is on you, you proceed to turn around instead of hitting the minion because you think to yourself "fuck that, it's only 19 gold", get hit by his q which, btw is an aoe silence with massive damage that can potentially silence an entire team every 8 seconds but kassadin can only have an interrupt on his single target q with considerably less damage than malzahars q because it has a spellshield that can't even properly block a katarina dagger at level one and is almost completely negligible lategame and is point and click with a range annoyingly shorter than most ranged aa ranges and then you get roflstomped by three little creatures that deal physical damage thus ignoring your passive and die right after they kill you while malzahar smokes a cigarette after pressing r. You would think an interrupt, 15% mr and a spellshield with the ability to flash every few seconds would counter this thing but NO BECAUSE HE CAN BLOCK ANYTHING YOU THROW AT HIM EVERY COUPLE OF SECONDS IS RANGED WITH AN AOE SILENCE AND A POINT AND CLICK INSTANT 3 SECOND SUPPRESSION WHILE HIS CREEPS SHRED YOU WITH PHYSICAL DAMAGE AND CAN OUTTRADE YOU SIMPLY BECAUSE HIS E OUTLASTS YOUR SPELLSHIELD AND FCKING JUMPS FROM YOUR MINIONS TO YOU, GIVING HIM MANA BACK IN THE PROCESS WHILE YOU TRY TO GET BACK 3% OF YOUR MANA WITH A MELEE POKE OFF OF THAT ONE MINION THAT JUST RAN 10 MILES AWAY FROM THE REST RIGHT INTO YOUR TOWER RANGE

Beacon Academy1 votes

tbf I'm sure a laser-like ult would travel faster than liquid.

Ixoziel1 votes

It makes absolutely no sense. It's a 2.5 second disable that's point and click. I would love for someone at riot to explain to me why Leblanc's and Talon's silences were "toxic" while Malzahar's ult is OK. You can still do stuff during silence, the two major things being auto attacks and movement. You can do absolutely nothing during a stun or suppression.

Same argument for Annie's stun, honestly. If a champ has a ranged stun or suppression effect it needs to be a skillshot.

INT then ULT3 votes

No.

Hyper-mobile champs with burst need a counter.

Beacon Academy3 votes

Bud...

You listed LeBlanc and Talon, both of whom are mobile

You then proceed to list Malzahar and Annie, both of whom are immobile

Kassadin's Silence was also removed and he has a mobility ult

Garen and Cho'gath both have silences with no dashes/blinks/jumps/etc in their kits

Sit there and think about why that is.

Ixoziel1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beacon Academy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0KyJIVeN,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-01-18T08:42:01.936+0000)

Bud...

You listed LeBlanc and Talon, both of whom are mobile

You then proceed to list Malzahar and Annie, both of whom are immobile

Kassadin's Silence was also removed and he has a mobility ult

Garen and Cho'gath both have silences with no dashes/blinks/jumps/etc in their kits

Sit there and think about why that is.

I already explained why it's different "bud". They're point-and-click SILENCES which still allow you to move and attack. Point-and-click stuns are FAR, FAR different. You can not chain a point-and-click silence into a morgana bind (et cetera) for a guaranteed kill. You CAN do with a stun.

That was already the price for having mobility. Instead of getting Annie's stun (since she's immobile) they got silences instead (since they WERE mobile).

"Garen and Cho'gath both have silences with no dashes/blinks/jumps/etc in their kits"

And Garen's is melee and Cho'gaths is a skillshot. What do you not understand here? Malz / Annie have point-and-click RANGED stuns that are NOT skillshots. THAT IS MY ISSUE WITH THEM. Garen is fine. Chogath is fine.

Abilities like Malzahar and Annie have are relics from DotA where there are point-and-click sleeps that last 7 seconds and a hero that has a Malz ult that lasts 5 seconds. The reason they don't belong in this game is that there are no counter items to them like BKB or Nullstone.

Beacon Academy1 votes

I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about CC/silence itself on mobile-burst champs vs short-range burst/sustained damage immobile champs.


"If a champ has a ranged stun or suppression effect it needs to be a skillshot."

Mobility > Ranged (Skillshots) due to being able to dodge easily.

Ranged > Target due to target being generally shorter in range than skillshots.

Target > Mobility due to 100% hit rate unless you have invulnerability.

Mobility - AhriAkaliKatarinaZed Etc Etc

Ranged Examples Ziggs Q - 1400 Range Xerath Q - 1400 Velkoz Q - 1050 / Potential 1521 Approx. Veigar Q - 950 Morgana Q - 1175 Malzahar Q - 900 / Old W - 800 Lux Q - 1175 / E - 1000 / R - 3340 Brand Q - 1050 / W - 900 Anivia Q - 1075

Target Examples Akali Q - 600 / R - 700 Anivia E - 650 Annie Q - 625 Brand E - 625 / R - 750 Karma W - 675 Katarina Q - 625 Leblanc Q - 700 Malzahar E - 650 / R - 700 Ryze W - 615 Syndra R - 675 / 750 Enhanced (Level 16) Vladimir Q - 600


If we live in a world where more people are playing champions with mobility, then I suppose there will always be complaints about the skills that counter them... Target abilities.

The same would be said about complaining about ranged champions in a world filled with target champions

Or complaints about mobile champions in a world filled with skillshot champions.

Ixoziel1 votes

What's the point of listing the range of spells which have no CC in them whatsoever? I fail to understand what giving a list of random abilities proves other than a selected list of point-and-clicks has a shorter range than skill shots. Sure. That's one of the balancing factors. You're also looking at things through a far too simplistic lens. There are other factors to consider. Cooldown. Damage. Scaling. Projectile speed. Number of orbs (syndra's case). Champion movespeed.

Point-and-click stuns aren't made to counter mobility. They counter EVERYTHING. Look at Varus. No mobility. Guess what a stun does to him? Stops him from doing the only thing he really does: dps. You can say it's a "hard counter" to him. That's why they are stuns. Point-and-click SILENCES on the other hand serve as a FANTASTIC counter to mobility and that's why assassins had them: to prevent people from escaping. That was my whole point. Point-and-click silences were determined to be "toxic" and thus they were removed. How are point-and-click stuns not toxic? Point-and-click roots like Maokai has also serve as a fantastic counter to mobility. I don't think they're toxic. You can still attack (and it even puts him into attack range for melee champs). You can still cast abilities. There is counterplay available.

Regardless of the balance logic behind it, the game has also been changed to remove "toxic" mechanics yet arguably the most toxic mechanic is still in the game. Playing against Malzahar is incredibly stupid because of how his ult functions and many players agree with this, that's why there's a lot of whine about it. There's also very little complaining about Warwick when his ult functions the same way because it's a skillshot and you can counterplay it.

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