I think the main problem with it is that while it's theoretically nice for a lot of champions (nassus, olaf, etc.), they ruin their builds by rushing it, and by the time they can afford it it's not worth the item slot. Basically, the mana generation is a useful laning tool, but the reaver isn't a good item to rush for the laning phase.

It would be nice if it could actually be considered an alternative to Bloodthirster.

The problem is that Bloodthirster not only has a shield over ER, but it also has 10% more lifesteal. You literally have to be braindead to even consider ER to be a good choice instead.

Added to this is the fact that late game marksmen don't care about mana much, and since it can't be a rush buy (because IE or Bork always have to be built first, which is another problem in and of itself) there is never a good time to buy it.

Honestly, Marksmen items need to be reworked in general.

{quoted}

I've heard it mentioned as something to check out for preseason, but I don't know or have any details on what any changes may be.

Anything you guys would like to see in particular from the item?

Change its build into . Give it a new unique passive that heals your MP/HP for 15% of the damage you deal.

A sub item that gives some of the mana passive earlier so we can use some of it before finishing the build.

What I want to see?

• A build path that's not identical to
• Some mana regen prior to spending the entire 3200 gold
• Alternatively, I could settle for having some flat mana, similar to Runeglaive

Difficulty for this item, and itemizing for marksmen in general, is AD Casters. A completely separate class of champions that can benefit (and snowball) from items meant for marksman. Honestly, you guys should consider separating melee and ranged only items more than just runann's and the hydras. Thematically, it doesn't even make sense for Ranged marksmen to be wielding swords... xD League of Legends has evolved past the point of "swords represent physical strength" and "staves represent magical strength."

Having a melee/ranged version of nearly every item in the game could be a HUGE step to push unique champion identities and development. You could specifically target classes that abuse an item because that item only applies to them. Just brainstorming. :3

I think this item is just underpowered because mana return and physical power is a hugely abusive stat combination for AD casters. I think buffing it for marksmen could make it one of those top tier items for the mana hungry ones.

I'd very much like it to become the premium sustain item for caster-ish AD champions, so perhaps having it heal from physical spell damage as well as basic attacks would do it a lot of good. AD spellvamp's typically been a no-no due to how bruisers can abuse the stat with strong ability base damage, but it'd be interesting to see if Riot would be willing to do another pass on AD sustain in general and try to make it work.

the core problem with ER is that it solves an early game problem on a late game item.

Most adc's and ad casters need mana for late-early game and early to late mid game. Mana is not an issue in the late game 90% of the time.

IMO, a good work solution would be something like this:

+ -> Mana Scepter

Mana Scepter: 10 AD Unique Passive: restores 2% all physical damage dealt as mana. (1% for aoe phys dmg) [numbers not final]

then

+ Mana Scepter -> Soul Reaper

Soul Reaper: 25 AD 10% life steal Unique Passive: restores 2%-4% of all physical damage dealt as mana (dependent on missing mana) (half effect on aoe phys dmg)

And now for the crazy.

Soul Reaper + + ->

[new] Essence Reaver: 80 AD 20% life steal Unique Passive: restores 2%-8% of all physical damage dealt as mana (dependent on missing mana) (half effect on aoe phys dmg) Unique Active: Steal the target's soul, stealing X% of their max mana. Deal the amount of mana stolen + 100 magic damage and slow the target for Y% for Z seconds.

Yeah, I kinda got carried away with that last one. (it's probably horribly over powered) but that's my line of thought for where to take the item at least.

I think it's just misclassified. It's clearly meant to be an ADC item with the B. F. Sword build path, but it just doesn't have stats that ADCs value highly. Mana and cool down reduction are much more the realm of AD Casters.

But casters don't like it because the build path is so difficult and they generally are looking for early power spikes. And I actually agree it should not have mana in the build path since mana is meant to be an early gating mechanism. To that end, I think it should build out of Brutalizer. Brut needs something besides Youmuu's to build into, and Essense Reaver seems like a great candidate.

Replace the B. F. Sword with a Brutalizer, drop the AD to 50 (since very high AD with flat armor pen is a dangerous combination), give it 20 flat armor pen, and drop its price to something like 2850 so it stays gold efficient. Now you have an item that is reasonably rush-able to solve mana problems, but not TOO early, gives an alternative to Youmuu's for Brutalizer, and has stats that are very desirable for AD Casters, along with a build path that doesn't scare them off. An simple solution, and one that increases clarity about who the item is meant for.

It's been seeing play on Fiora on soloqueue, and I feel like it fits her better than on an ADC. It gives her constant uptime on her abilities (as you will spam them a lot when split pushing to create fast map pressure). It also gives her everything she wants AND she doesn't need critical strike chance.

Generally, the only champion you would consider Essence Reaver occasionally is Ezreal. Even then, most players build something else on him entirely.

Would increasing the AD value be too much to ask for? What about turning it into a Brutalizer upgrade?

I'd like to see some form of spellvamp on it, makeing it the Sustain-item for ad-casters, refining his niche between Manamune and BT. Right now, if used as mana-sustain item, manamune just is more effective, and the 10% lifesteal don't cut it for most off the users. If used as ad+lifesteal item, BT is just superrior in most cases, as shield+10%more LS are valued higher in such a situation than the 10%cdr and aditional mana-sustain. With some spellvamp and increased costs, it would be more appealing on ad-casters compared to BT, while hopefully not crowding out manamune, as manamune would stay a more goldefficient mana+ad option that eventually offers still more singletarget damage.

Another thing i'd like to see is higher managain vs champs, and maybe a bit flat-gain. If rushed, the manasustain is rather poor as you lack AA dps, and vs champs, especially tanks, it also is a bit weak as it's based on damage dealt post mitigation. You also usually would want manasustian in a poke/standoff scenario, but you rarly can AA in such a scenario...

I just posted this elsewhere, but giving people a reason to upgrade it past the 'baby Essence Reaver' item I've heard talk about should be important.

Something I was speaking to another player about was having the 'baby' essence reaver restore mana on kills, and the full essence reaver restore mana based on damage dealt (half for AOE skills). In theory, this would allow people to deny mana restoration to AD casters by zoning them from creep waves.

As an aside, I know many people liked the item from black market Brawlers, 'Flesheater' ( ). I really found the stacking mechanic of that item intresting, but the sustain it gave in lane was a little out of hand. Would it be possible to apply a similar active to the Essence Reaver Items that gives you mana instead of health back, and improves the statistic of the item?

{quoted}

We'll likely make changes to it in the Preseason patch, completely agree it's not a good choice 99% of the time at present.

why not just remove it?

[{quoted}](name=Riot Reinboom,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0JMJBqZ6,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-08-19T01:07:14.255+0000)

Slightly different question for you all on this thread: What is the core concept you would attach most to Essence Reaver? This could be anything from intended user to "80 AD" to it's mana gain on hit. Regardless of if Essence Reaver is serving those concepts well.

Then, to what extent do you believe the rest of the item can change around the core concept you chose? (From not at all, suggesting no changes just numbers increase to everything)

I see it as a niche item for AD casters. Maybe add an effect to landing skills that do physical damage? Though, unsure what. Gaining mana back from using skills doesn't seem right. Maybe sort of Wit's End type? Bonus damage and lower armor a bit?

Honestly, I think ER is a problem for two reasons: One) ADCs are designed to do the most damage. The multiplicative scaling means that you scale off of several stats, so if you don't have any of those stats, you deal a bunch less damage. Someone building defense, or utility, or anything other than most DPS as ADC is Doing It Wrong; meaning ER is going to be the Wrong Choice as long as this is the case. Adding in any of those stats other than raw AD (crit chance, attack speed, armor penetration) might make ER better, but it'd also probably overload the item and make it cost way too much

B) By the time you can afford ER, you don't need it. Making it build out of a BF sword means that by the time you get the mana sustain, you're already past the stage where mana management is much of a concern. Sure, most ADCs can bleed themselves dry if they try, and some (Kog, Ez) might find themselves with not enough mana to do their job, but most ADCs can function without mana sustain because autoattacking costs nothing.

If ER is going to be a thing, it needs to be cheaper and ADCs need to be revamped so that they don't need to build all damage all the time in order to do their jobs.

To me it seems like a lane item for mana dependent ad casters (similar to what athenes does for mana intensive ap mid laners).

To reach this status I would like to see some initial mana regen on a cost similar to hexdrinker. This mana regen could very well be very low (like 10-20 mana per aa) but then scale up and become THE MANA + AD CASTER ITEM through cdr and flat pen.

I would say that something like 80 AD, current mana passive, 20 armor pen and 20% cdr would be nice. This would ofcourse require a large cost but due to its intended purpose being to give mana intensive ad casters a good first item to build it cannot have a complicated build path. So I would suggest something like: longsword+mana crystal+530 gp = mini reaver (temp name) which gives 10-20 mana on aa based on missing mana, 30 ad, and 200 mana. mini reaver + brutilizer + 1013 gp = essence reaver which then gives 80 AD, 200 mana, current mana passive, 20 armor pen and 20% cdr with a total cost of 3600 making it one of the more expensive items in the game.

The mana crystal is meant to be there to synergize with the passive and give some cost to an otherwise easy build path. Note that while the last 1013 gold may be slithly tough to get the reward is equal to an additional brutilizer and a better mana passive.

I'd think of it as "the item for skill-based ADCs", for ADCs like Quinn who would actually like some cooldown reduction to use their skills more often, along with the mana needed to fuel them.

Sadly, its stats (damage, CDR, lifesteal) just feel too weak to justify buying it compared to something else like IE or even Brutaliser/Ghostblade. I like the idea of the stats it offers, but I just feel like I do no damage if I buy it as my first item.

The problem that I could see with a good AD + CDR items is that if it's good on ADCs, it would be too good / abusable on AD casters / AD assassins.

Caveat: I'm not a good ADC player.

Ultimately, what I want from it when I consider buying it, is to have a cooldown item for ADC. Nevermind the mana regen - mana's not something that even really crosses my mind much on ADC generally, and it feels unnecessary to have it around. But the only other real CDR choice for ADC is Zephyr, which is such a weird little "ball of a bunch of stats I want but in small numbers at high price" that it feels like a capstone purchase.

Like if I want mana as an ADC, Manamune exists.

To me its "A item for mama hungry AD champions that use there basic attacks and DONT want or use tear"

Everything else can change

This item IS NOT FOR AD CASTERS. they have tear, this item is for people who use auto attacks.

I've always viewed ER as a non-Tear way to recover mana, like Athene's and Morello's are. However that's difficult to put into an AD item as a dedicated slot, to it becomes the little brother to BT. Not as good when it comes to survivability, but has it's own little tricks. Like lifesteal, it forces the player to interact with the map in any fashion, be it attacking champions, minions, monsters, or even wards.

Problems with Current Design: You make 0 inroads on mana issues until 3.2k gold in. As an item made for mana hungry AD champions, it does little to support them when they actually need the mana the most(based upon my experience), which is in lane. Imagine if BT didn't give Lifesteal until it was finished, if IE didn't give crit until it was finished.

When we look at the AP side of things, we have Chalice at a nice 900g for the very mana hungry or people trying to get by in lane. So the mages who can drink responsibly and not pick fights while mana sober there's the much cheaper Forbidden Idol at 600g. Both affordable mid tier items that give you mana that build into items that give you mana.

Balance Changes: If I could Hotfix it right now: I know you've seen this a lot. Put Forbidden Idol into the build path. There's 850g in the combine cost to work with, so why not? Players that want mana earlier can pick it up. Those that can do without it or don't want to clutter their inventory can skip over it. It also gives an earlier source for that 10% CDR.

+ + 850g =

Changes to:

+ + + 250g =

AD Revamp: Like AP got a revamp, we know AD is getting one in time. This will assume changes to BF Sword. Something in the range 1200g for 35AD or 1225g for 40AD. Those number look kind of uncomfortable to me, but BF sword currently sits at 31g/AD. 1200/35 lands at ~34.3g/AD and 1225/40 rests at ~30.6g/AD. The 40AD version keeps roughly the same efficiency and feels more rewarding than just a +10 improvement over Pick Axe for an extra 325g.

Option A - BFF Sword I'd like to see Soul Sickle explored again. The build line on it was atrociously boring.

+ 600g = Soul Sickle

Changes to:

+ + 200g = Soul Sickle(1600g total) with 30 AD and 10% CDR

This allows the "Do I want the mana?" option sooner without having to wait til 3.2k for it to clear out of the inventory. 10 AD coming from a 200g combine + other goodies is a bit much, but it's rewarding that power dip the player chooses to go through if they can't span that 800g gap.

New Build Path + Soul Sickle + 400g =

Option B - No longer my BFF Sword Forget Sickle, we're making a new item, Zaunite Incantation Blade!

+ + 325 = Zaunite Incantation Blade(1800g total) 35AD 10% CDR Sickle's on-hit passive

Now if you really want the mana, you can get it. It's also divorced from the Vamp Scepter and there won't be an issue of Sickle being a Camp Scepter where you can just sit in lane until you want to shop. You choose one or the other. Do you want mana or do you want lifesteal?

New Build Path + ZIB + 300g = (3500g total) 70AD 10% CDR 10% Lifesteal Mana Passive Cutlass Active at 200 magic damage and restores 50 mana.

Let's be real, this item is supposed to feel dirty. Just read the name. So why not marry the devil may care advancement of Zaun with the opportunistic spirit of Bilgewater? It has more stuff, so it costs more(300g), but has less AD because of no BF sword.

AD-Caster-item (at least that´s what it should be).

best chase: get rid of the tiny lifeleech that makes it an inferior choice to BT anyway and add some arp...maybe even have it build out of a brutalizer...and buff the managain a tad.

On AD Carries it's bad because I need items with AD and effect that multiply the effect of my AA(egs: ) and I don't need Mana.

On AD Caster it's bad because it doesn't solve my Mana problems, if I'm playing an AD caster chance are that most of my damage is spell based and my AA aren't very good since I don't have AS/Crits. ER force me to waveclear with AA which is inconvenient since it take's time(that I could use doing something else) and it prevents me from killing minion before they get in AA range(bad for poke Varus/Jayce who would kill minion while/before poking). In the end the amount of Mana I get back just doesn't feel rewarding enough. Finally when outside of lane it doesn't give me anything since it has no bonus Mana/Mana Regen.

-Make the item cheaper(want some AD for cheap? get ER), possibly remove the life steal so it's not too cost efficient. -Give ER 20 more AD(want A LOT of AD? get ER), possibly remove the life steal so it ain't to good on adc. -Improve the Mana Restoration and add significant bonus Mana.

To me, the role I think it could fill would be for it to be a sister item to the way and are. Where Muramana has the role of having copious amounts of mana and bonus damage on auto attacks, I think could fill a similar role to those that cast spells. Instead of being a part of the 80 AD item set, it could sit at somewhere around 60 and build from and and probably a

This smooths out the build path by having the CDR earlier, but also being an easier build up due to being mostly built from longswords, so this could be a great first item to the caster Varuses or the likes of Talon and even lane Kha'Zix.

Something that might be nice for this item to make it more unique and play up that "Essence Reaving" is to give it a form of spell vamp, so that the spellcaster AD's have a way to heal other than just auto attacking. If you wanted it to sit around the same cost, it could look something like this:

+ +

Essence Reaver:

~3300 gold (Slight cost increase) ~60 AD (Down from 80. Could definitely add more upon completion if it's undertuned.) 10 Armor Pen (New) 10% Cooldown Reduction

Unique Passive: Soul Reaving Abilities and Basic Attacks heal you for 10% of the damage dealt. (presumably less for multiple targets like spell vamp?) Upon hitting an enemy champion with an ability or basic attack, restores 2% - 8% of your missing mana.

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents.

[{quoted}](name=Riot Reinboom,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0JMJBqZ6,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-08-19T01:07:14.255+0000)

Slightly different question for you all on this thread: What is the core concept you would attach most to Essence Reaver? This could be anything from intended user to "80 AD" to it's mana gain on hit. Regardless of if Essence Reaver is serving those concepts well.

Then, to what extent do you believe the rest of the item can change around the core concept you chose? (From not at all, suggesting no changes just numbers increase to everything)

I like the mana regen for ad champ thing. A change I would like to see to the item is making it an hybride made from a small morello and an ad item. An ad item for reducing heal is really missing atm and I think essence reaver would be perfect for it, as it is not a must have item but more of a adaptation item.

The AA-centric version of Morello, in that it provides a strong power spike (Morello partially because of the CDR) while allowing the buyer to sustain mana.

The issue i've always had with ER is that "i want mana, but can't justify spending this much on an item just to keep up with mana". for an ap castor, you can get chalice for just under 1k gold, and it gives some resistances, (best handy example: ekko mid vs another ap, chalice helps you take less damage from getting poked in lane, and helps keep your mana up because if you're getting poked that hard, you probably need to spend mana to farm with q, which will burn out quick) whenever I'm getting ER, i just look at it "it's safer to get bork or BT with the same items" because even when out of mana, anyone who uses that many auto attacks will be worth just auto attacking with, so the shield from bloodthirster will keep them alive better, or bork will be able to avoid dives better. Instead of a completely seperate item. I'd almost like to see "essence reaver" be an enchantment you could buy on any 1 item and spend maybe 600~ extra gold for to help compensate for mana lost. or maybe a 1 time use consumable that would remain for the rest of the game, or more akin to Eleisa's Miracle than a full item.

Several people have commented already "why would i get ER instead of tear" and while lifesteal/cdr are nice, having to wait that long to actually get the item usually doesn't seem to be worth it