i feel like mages dont have as many options as ad users

Xilixer·Dec 11, 2015·93 votes·4,651 views

going over the masteries for all trees it seems they apply more to ad champs rather than ap champs. even the ap keystones can work on some ad champs but not vice versa. in the furocity tree mages really only have 1 option whereas ad users get 2. warlord is only effective with auto attack champs, fervor of battle is useless cuz mages are generally squishy and arent really impactful on them. then you have deathfire touch which is only good on a couple of mages. the others are forced to take the cunning line and get thunderlord. they talked about diversity but they ended up contradicting themselves.

107 Comments

foristDec 11, 201519 votes

This is a completely moot point honestly. Thunderlord's is legitimately the strongest mastery on burst casters and DFT is obviously the strongest mastery for dot mages.

If there were more ways to play mages it would be an issue, but mages generally fall into 3 categories:

burst mages: Lock-down and burst down a priority target
dot mages: huge team fight presence with aoe and dot to weaken an entire team
control mages: usually have multiple forms of cc including hard cc. Help lock-down priority target or zone threats and peel for teammates.

If you think about it that way the masteries are very beneficial to both dot and burst mages. The only problem is that control mages benefit much less from the new masteries, but most control mages get their spikes from items that give them increased utility on top of their own kit's utility: ex: item 3092 and item 3116 .

The real problem is that people are looking at the term mage as a narrow concept. If we think of champions like: hybrid MasterYi or Jax or Kayle as mages then we can say that mages benefit just as much from the ad targeted masteries as ad champs benefit from the ap targeted ones.

LuciferDec 11, 20153 votes

I don't think the OPs point was that the AP Masteries are necessarily bad on everyone, but that the variety was lacking, which is true. Even death touch and thundelords have substantial AD ratios included in them - Standard APs only get two options that scale with their main stat. Seems lopsided. Also I think Kayle is the only one of those that's truly a mage - the other two are more classified as bruisers.

TwinkieProDec 11, 20152 votes

They get substantial ratios simply because AD is much harder to build. It's fairly simple to get 1100 ap, compared to a very difficult to achieve 500 AD, and frankly, few ever do both. Also, several AP items have pretty unique stats attached to them, like item 3116 and item 3151 that many mages can utilize efficiently. Sure, there is item 3022 , but aside from some of the new AD items, AP has had a good pick for a while now, ADC builds can actually vary a little, and hybrid almost feels like a thing now.

Supreme Senpai69Dec 12, 20151 votes

I usually end up 300 AP. Granted games don't last as long but that's nowhere near 1100.

RedagaDec 12, 20155 votes

the only way to get over 1K AP without being Veigar or Thresh is a building with item 3089 and item 3048 , most games now dont last enough to build the 750 you need to make item 3003 into item 3040 , even if you buy item 3070 as early as you can in the game, is about around minute 30 that you reach that count, and that is with champs that have low cost, low cool down spells like Syndra or Karthus

on the average game, a mage will be about 300-400 ap (if not fed hard)

RedagaDec 12, 20151 votes

your categories are right, but in terms of how to build and what to builds, all mages boil down to build as much AP/ Magic Pene as you can. as all mages (limit to mages only, no hybrids likes Ekko , Kayle etc) are basically glass cannons, build for damage out put in a single combo, given that the AA is useless after lane phase is done (maybe here and there for a 3rd strike to trigger TLD )

AD champs have more options than just build raw AD due to the mix of Spells with AA

AA speed, AA damage, AA Critical Chance, Build Tanky, build Life Steal for sustain on fights, etc.

foristDec 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

your categories are right, but in terms of how to build and what to builds, all mages boil down to build as much AP/ Magic Pene as you can. as all mages (limit to mages only, no hybrids likes , etc) are basically glass cannons, build for damage out put in a single combo, given that the AA is useless after lane phase is done (maybe here and there for a 3rd strike to trigger TLD )

AD champs have more options than just build raw AD due to the mix of Spells with AA

AA speed, AA damage, AA Critical Chance, Build Tanky, build Life Steal for sustain on fights, etc.

But that's the problem, you're limiting mages to glass cannon burst casters. If mages were that 1 dimensional I'd agree, but its not that simple. They can fulfill many different roles depending on their kits and build paths.

And your generalizing all ad champs as marskmen. That whole long ass earlier post was to point out that its not all ad champs that benefit from those stats, just marksmen. Their are still ap champs that benefit from those stats, they just aren't considered mages, people consider them ap bruisers like jax, ap yi, kayle, or diana.

RedagaDec 12, 20151 votes

those are hyrids, as they benefit from both AD and AP and AA.

im not generalizing as markman but on average most AD champs can build at least 2 ways

foristDec 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

those are hyrids, as they benefit from both AD and AP and AA.

im not generalizing as markman but on average most AD champs can build at least 2 ways

By that logic most mages can build different ways as well. Take for example diana or azir or teemo who can go with straight ap burst or benefit from attack speed for sustained damage. There are also mages like twisted fate or ahri who can either build full burst or for more kiting and dps through lich bane procs. People are way too busy tunneling on this whole "mages are weak qq" to realize that they have just as many build options as ad champions. The only real outlier being crit, but the drastically higher scalings and cost effeciency on ap items accounts for that discrepancy.

Critmaster GarenDec 11, 201511 votes

as marksmen.

make no mistake. assassins and ad casters dont have many options either. especially after they repurposed some of the general ad items for carries. and the only reason why bruiser itemization is so versatile, is because theyre using a mix of items designed for multiple different archetypes of champions. ad caster, carry and tank itemization. plus the 3 new items they got with the juggernaut update.

not saying mages couldnt use better items.

but imo marksmen also shouldnt have access to 30% cdr and auto attack multipliers in the same build. i hate the entire idea behind the new essence reaver.

it seems more like mage itemization isnt bad, but carry itemization is far too good.

JustMyBassCannonDec 11, 20154 votes

Point me to an AD champion consistently using 18 points in Cunning and not getting laughed out of the room because they gimped themselves.

DerZermetzelteDec 11, 20156 votes

Lucian does pretty well with Thunderlord's Decree. All a matter of taste though. The main point stays though: The 2 options for mages can work out on adcs too, while mages have no way of using Fervor of Battle or Warlord's Bloodlust.

JustMyBassCannonDec 11, 20153 votes

Yeah, but the difference is that it's almost never optimal for an ADC to use Thunderlord's Decree, because of the extra points required to get to that keystone in the first place, or Deathfire Touch, because it explicitly only applies as a spell effect and thus never on the basic attacks so central to the majority of AD champs. Even on the champions that weave spells often enough to make use of Deathfire Touch, it would be far more useful to them if they went with Fervor of Battle.

DerZermetzelteDec 11, 20156 votes

The question was not which mastery gives the biggest impact, but whether it can be used at all. You seem to argue with efficiency levels, but miss the original statement here. And I'd call Thunderlord's decree a worthy nieche mastery for caster adcs. Lucian and Corki for example. Both of which deal a bit magic damage on top. And on their way there, they can get the double flat penetration.

And you miss something: The difference between 18/12/0 and 12/18/0 is the final Keystone mastery and the decision between 7% armor penetration or ** 7% magic penetration**, and 14ar+5.4mr-penetration or 5% cdr.

So not as much waste as you try to sell us here.

JustMyBassCannonDec 11, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The question was not which mastery gives the biggest impact, but whether it can be used at all. You seem to argue with efficiency levels, but miss the original statement here.

Because the original statement is ignoring a huge point for the sake of acting marginalized. That's bullshit worthy of fueling Satan's furnace.

And I'd call Thunderlord's decree a worthy nieche mastery for caster adcs. Lucian and Corki for example. Both of which deal a bit magic damage on top. And on their way there, they can get the double flat penetration.

Lucian deals almost no magic damage. His W is the only source of magic damage in his kit, and it's maxed last. So, 60 points of magic damage, 4k physical damage.

Back to the more important point, yes, they can use Thunderlord's Decree, and indeed the Cunning tree itself, to their advantage. Because they're--what did you say again? Right--CASTER ADCS. They are Marksmen that behave like mages.

And you miss something: The difference between 18/12/0 and 12/18/0 is the final Keystone mastery and the decision between 7% armor penetration or ** 7% magic penetration**, and 14ar+5.4mr-penetration or 5% cdr.

So not as much waste as you try to sell us here.

Oddly enough, I pointed out that the only non-keystone masteries that actually gave obvious benefits to ADCs were Assassin and the Flat Pen. Sure, the CDR can help the caster ADCs too, though I still think they'd prefer the Flat Pen in most cases because Marksmen generally care more about damage than cooldown.

I'll add one more caveat to that; the "5% missing HP/Mana sustain on champ kill" is technically useful, although you're not going to notice that sustain in most cases because it will either heal less than the Feast mastery, or you will have enough Lifesteal that an extra 60 HP goes unnoticed with the 40-per-hit sustain.

In any event, the argument that they "can use" AP masteries is like saying ADCs "can use" Zhonya's Hourglass. Of course they can. Is it optimal? Almost never.

DerZermetzelteDec 11, 20152 votes

I was actually pointing at the fact, that you'll probably take the first 4 tiers of both trees anyways. So argueing with any mastery from rank 1-4 is pointless in that case. Concluding from that, the choice is only between the type of penetration (or cdr) and the Keystone mastery. And as you requested, someone pointed you at an AD champ that can use the mastery. Case solved, but appearantly you now try to change the rules by claiming that Lucian and Corki aren't adcs?

ChaoticPineconeDec 11, 20151 votes

If your arguing about whether it can be used at all, I would say that Stormraider and Windspeaker can be used by mages (immobile burst/shield respectively) and are not beneficial for ADs as much.

DerZermetzelteDec 13, 20151 votes

Only if your purpose is, to play a comp that doesn't need a carry at midlane. Like Lulu for example. Windspeaker would be pretty good on her, but I personally don't really see Lulu as a mage. It's just a Support that is allowed to build full AP.

And Stormraider's Surge is the biggest BS in the current patch. Mages get tons of movementspeed from all kinds of sources; I went to skip boots in 30% of my mage-builds. And why take a short ms boost on a burst champ (which it is for), when you can also have 300+ extra damage to make sure your target dies? Especially since most AP bursters (for example AP Assassins) already have innate mobility.

LlaniteDec 11, 20151 votes

The difference is, adc has no problem casting spells, while AP players have some weird fear of AA, hence, close themselves off Fervor. It's not Riot problem tbh.

Adc doesn't use DFT either, that's one for one.

On the side note, I use windseeker on Lux, Nid and other utility mages, that's another option for those.

RedagaDec 12, 20151 votes

why would and AP champ get on AA range, when, after lane phase, AA from a mage is a mosquito bite??

Mages build AP, not AD, and even on mages, AA escalates with AD.

If AA from mages affected champions the the same way it affects Turrets, then Mages will hell of course dive in for AA for sustain, If a mages burst its combo, and miss 1 skill shot or the other champ dont die, a mage is naked for the next 5-10 seconds, and they have extremely low mobility

PartholonianDec 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

why would and AP champ get on AA range, when, after lane phase, AA from a mage is a mosquito bite??

Depends on the mage. TwistedFate needs to AA to use one of his spells at all. Viktor has a built in item 3100 like effect on one of his spells. Anyone who actually builds is obviously getting into AA range to use it. And there's a few mage-fighters like Diana Kassadin Gragas that are not only getting into AA range, but MELEE AA range, because their kit rewards it.

Not all mages are Xerath Velkoz .

LlaniteDec 12, 20151 votes

Because something is better than nothing.

Most mages have a combo of 3 spells, which give them 6 fervor stacks, their AA is ~60 @12, adding 36 dmg from fervor = ~100 dmg. Thunder has ~200 dmg @12, i.e. fervor is stronger if you can land 2 AA.

I run it on Annie, on Lux, on Oriana, on Swain. Partholonian also got good point with lichbane.

PartholonianDec 13, 20151 votes

One more I didn't think of in the below post, because I don't play him, but how does it work on Azir ? His soldiers are his autoattack, do they apply fervor the same way they apply things like item 3115 ?

LlaniteDec 13, 20151 votes

His soldiers do not proc on-hit, not even Nashor's.

RedagaDec 12, 20151 votes

this, they even buffed the the AD ratio on TLD, and many AD champs and Marksman gets benefited from TLD, see MissFortune , her E and R works on waves rather than 1 hit Damage, and each wave counts are 1 hit for TLD.

so what would take a mage 3 spells to trigger, the E or R alone of MF (or MasterYi blink, or his Passive) or Lucian R can trigger the Mastery in 1 spell

BakedLotionDec 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Lucian does pretty well with Thunderlord's Decree. All a matter of taste though. The main point stays though: The 2 options for mages can work out on adcs too, while mages have no way of using Fervor of Battle or Warlord's Bloodlust

Fervor works on some mages that like to auto attack since it doesn't scale with AD. It scales with level.

DerZermetzelteDec 13, 20151 votes

Hm. That would be nieche mages like Fizz or Kayle, but they might as well take Thunderlord's Decree, which has a better basedamage and additional AP/AD ratios for burst patterns, while also dealing magic instead of normal damage. The overall playpattern of mages or Assassins doesn't really complement Fervor though.

BakedLotionDec 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Hm. That would be nieche mages like Fizz or Kayle, but they might as well take Thunderlord's Decree, which has a better basedamage and additional AP/AD ratios for burst patterns, while also dealing magic instead of normal damage. The overall playpattern of mages or Assassins doesn't really complement Fervor though.

Try Guinsoos + Nashors + Gunblade + Fervor on Trist. You won't regret it

ProfDrDeathDec 11, 20157 votes

Quinn in the jungle. Rengar jungle. Shaco jungle.

ADC MF's highest winrate masteries.

Zed's highest winrate masteries.

And that's with the data from 5.23. On 5.24, going 18 into Cunning has become stronger for ADs, as Precision was buffed (now gives 5.5-14 flat ArPen). To put that into perspective, a target needs 80.6 - 200 Armor after LW for Battering Blows to be as strong.

JustMyBassCannonDec 11, 20152 votes

You see this, people?

THIS IS HOW YOU REFUTE AN ARGUMENT IN A DEBATE. Not emotions. Not bullshit and vague statements. Not technicalities of the statements. Raw Data. Statistics.

I literally made this as easy as possible, and it still took someone, who I've known on the forums for a long time as an intelligent person, to come and refute a point with facts.

Probably doesn't deserve it, but [mic drop]

XilixerDec 11, 20152 votes

except that logic is broken. every arguement here wasnt made with emotions. there was nothing vague about the statements that were made.

just one simple fact. that ad champs can use mage keystones except the vice versa cant happen.

JustMyBassCannonDec 11, 20151 votes

And I point out that a lot of them are not as effective.

You then lean back on the technicality, "But I wasn't saying they could use them effectively, only that they could use them."

Which is avoiding the point in favor of bullshitting. Something of which I get sick on a regular basis.

The first person in this thread to go straight to refuting instead of technicalities was Angry Bards, and then ProfDrDeath came in with statistics instead of theory. This is how debate works. An argument is made, and you counter it with facts instead of pretending you're a politician.

XilixerDec 11, 20152 votes

but theres only one problem though. i also stated that out of the 2 options for the mages they were forced to make a split decision regardless of whether or not that said keystone is "effective" with that champion or not. whereas with ad champs you get that wider choice.

regardless of the technicatlities or bullshitting the statement stands fact that "it CAN work". it may not be efficiant but then again we do have people play ad Malzahar. Going on the assumption automatically that these options arent viable is close minded.

JustMyBassCannonDec 11, 20152 votes

I want you to legitimately try to prove to me any build where Deathfire on a marksman does not get overshadowed by literally every other option available. You can even use the Thunderlord setup for that comparison, if you wish.

Likewise, prove to me that Thunderlord would ever be worth more than Fervor of Battle on a marksman.

Instead of saying "It can work, and that means it has to be viable," and pretending that I haven't already pointed out that this argument also justifies complaining about Mercurial Scimitar on AP champions and Zhonya's Hourglass on AD champions, do some legwork and prove your argument. The burden of proof falls to your claim.

Or you can just admit to being a lazy ass that can't prove anything.

SpoofghoulDec 11, 20153 votes

Jinx can use deathfire, it works with fishbones

Corki Lucian can use deathfire

There are plenty of marksmen whom can use deathfire, Almost all of them can also use the thunderlord decree mastery, these masteries are totally viable on them depending on waht your play style is going to be.

You want to poke with rockets as corki in a siege comp then deathfire is good. You want bigger burst damage take thunderlords. Want a mix of sustain and dps warlords need raw dps fervor.

They are all viable on ADC's

It just depends on what you want to do ingame, you have an elise and a thresh on your team and you are playing lucian, why not all three pick thunderlords for some fat burst when you start picking people off.

Jayce and corki picking deathfire to increae their poke in a siege composition is totally viable.

And buying zhonyas when playing adc to counter their rengar and zed is not always a bad choice, its better to have less dps in your build and do some at all then be deleted with your full offensive item build and die all the time still doing no damage.

The GovernerDec 11, 20152 votes

can use deathfire, it works with fishbones

Part of me wishes that you are just kidding.

Both of Jinx's auto attack stances apply on-hit effects. They don't apply spell effects like Deathfire Touch, so Deathfire Touch is not viable on Jinx.

SpoofghoulDec 11, 20151 votes

the aoe effect is actually a spell effect so it can apply DFT to opponents

The GovernerDec 11, 20152 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Deathfire_Touch_(Season_2016_Mastery)#comm-1252262

Splash damage applies nothing. Most AOEs aren't classified as splash - this is a classification almost only used by basic attack AOE.

So nope, Jinx's rockets don't apply spell effects. ~~ item 3116 and spell vamp are the only exceptions that apply to all of the targets except for the main target.~~ Jinx's Fishbones are not spell effects either. They are splash damage that applies on-hit effects to primary targets.

Edit: The strikethrough text is not correct. I was mistaken about the nature of Jinx's Fishbones.

SpoofghoulDec 11, 20151 votes

Well here is the thing i have actually tested this and the aoe did apply DFT

The GovernerDec 12, 20152 votes

If you don't prove this with a video, your point is basically moot.

That aside, most AOE spells apply spell effects and are considered as spell damage, as they are not classified as splash damage. However, most of the auto attack modifiers, especially splash damage auto attacks, do not apply spell effects, unless otherwise specified. There are some exceptions like Kayle 's E, but most of them do not apply spell effects.

The GovernerDec 12, 20152 votes

Because your opinions ≠ facts. Get this right.

Unless you prove this to us, there is no way we can tell you are telling the truth or not. That claim you make regarding Jinx's Fishbones can be considered as misleading. There is only black and white in this matter, because it's a conversation about something factual, not opinionated.

Oh the irony when you say my "opinions" are irrelevant. Your opinions are irrelevant according to your logic, good sir.

Also, what you said about AOE is true for most AOE spells (like Nasus ' E), not AOE splash damage.

JustMyBassCannonDec 12, 20152 votes

I just want to say that I love everything you just did.

Refuting a false point. Using empirical evidence and objective facts. And telling this berk that Deathfire Touch on Jinx is absolute malarkey.

Have a nice day.

The GovernerDec 12, 20152 votes

I just went into a custom game and tested it. You are wrong. Jinx's Fishbones do not apply Deathfire Touch, regardless of primary or secondary targets. I can show you a screenshot to prove it if you want.

The GovernerDec 12, 20152 votes

http://puu.sh/lSezI/5e5c926783.png

http://puu.sh/lSeAf/2a3f4a85f6.png

These 2 screenshots should tell you how wrong your claim is.

Kitten of EvilDec 11, 20151 votes

I would expect that some AD assassins (like Talon) may benefit from Stormraider's.

foristDec 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0ATyv0uZ,comment-id=00000005,timestamp=2015-12-11T15:05:05.177+0000)

I would expect that some AD assassins (like Talon) may benefit from Stormraider's.

In my experience I've found thunderlord's to be better on talon. Since his early game was significantly nerfed this preseason he benefits more from the increased burst in lane.

Kitten of EvilDec 11, 20151 votes

It may well be, since he shouldn't have difficulty proccing it. I don't play assassins much so I was just speculating as to who might benefit from it.

foristDec 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0ATyv0uZ,comment-id=0000000500000000,timestamp=2015-12-11T16:33:26.410+0000)

It may well be, since he shouldn't have difficulty proccing it. I don't play assassins much so I was just speculating as to who might benefit from it.

Probably best on jungle assassins like shaco, nocturne, khazix, or rengar, because it increases their sticking potential during ganks. Personally, I would never take it on a mid-laner because the shorter the lane is, the less effective storm raiders will be.

PartholonianDec 12, 20153 votes

I wouldn't expect anyone to benefit from Stormraider's. It can't help you reach/stick to a target to land your combo because you have to land your combo in order to proc it at all. And once you have landed your combo, it doesn't make it any stronger, it just lets you run away slightly faster now that all your stuff is on cooldown.

I guess that would suggest that it's good for kiting -- but not for kiting tanks/bruisers, since the proc threshold is based on the target's %max HP. Maybe if Nidalee could proc it with a single spear for example, it would be an alternative to TLD (which she can't proc without going in).