Rush is a detriment to the team at this point

Cloud 9 at Worlds got their wins because of a series of lucky factors, first of all capitalizing with a cheesy comp on the worlds meta and the order in which they met the teams in first week, but still was the only Na team that had any idea of what to do there, because CLG and TSM looked really lost and executed well that comp...the only problem is that they got only 1 idea and once they got figured out they got beaten up by what were clearly superior teams

I agree that they lucked out on a comp and the games were too close together for teams to figure out how to counter it in time. However, I would argue CLG was the better team at worlds, and TSM might have been better but we didn't really get to see it because of their group (as much as it pains me to say it, i hate TSM lol. I loved watching them get buttfucked in that group).

CLG's first week was a legitimate good showing of their strength. Honestly, CLG beating Flash Wolves is much more impressive to me than C9 beating AHQ and FNC, because CLG didn't win off of pure luck, they just out-rotated and out player the other team. The problem is, CLG and KOO had the exact same style of play, (strong mid game shot calling, questionable jungler/mid with carries in bot and top) and it's REALLY hard to beat the Korean copy of your team. It was a really bad match up for CLG, they literally had no advantages to go off of. But of course the CLG players also have no perseverance, as soon as they lose one game apparently they tilt to shit.

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I agree that they lucked out on a comp and the games were too close together for teams to figure out how to counter it in time. However, I would argue CLG was the better team at worlds, and TSM might have been better but we didn't really get to see it because of their group (as much as it pains me to say it, i hate TSM lol. I loved watching them get buttfucked in that group).

CLG and TSM at Worlds sucked really hard CLG just crashed and burned once they recognize Zion(Darshan) couldn't carry agains international top laners like he did on NA and they weren't able to adapt their game. They won a game against Flash Wolves with FW running Kkramer at ADC that had a terrible showing and was replacing by the much better NL, and despite that the game was still shaky and pretty close for what I remember that both teams throw is not impressive at all, as that game could have gone either way and with a different ADC FW would have won that

TSM just continued on their terribad summer trand and offered some of the worst performance seen at Worlds from a team that wasn't Bangkok Titans in some of their losses and just won a game on a super slumping LGD that stomped them back in 2nd week

C9 was the only teams that had clear wins. Lukcy? Maybe, but the best win as far as smoothness go of the other two NA teams was probably CLG vs pain which is a wildcard team (a pretty good one for wildcard standards, but still far from high tier international teams)

No CLG played well until KOO tilted them off the planet. I think CLG had pretty good rotations for that game, so good in fact that some analysts started predicting CLG to beat KOO (After KOO dropped a game to flash wolves). Their win vs Flash Wolves was the most impressive win of any NA team there, and their win against Pain was still much cleaner than any of C9's wins. And even in their losses, CLG looked a lot better than C9. I just feel like CLG was the consistently better team, and C9 only looks better now because of some fuckery on the part of Riot.

I don't consider C9's fluke games, they only won because of Riot's dumb ass decision to drastically change the game before the biggest tournament of the year.

And I'm not really arguing for TSM, but they did get a pretty tough group, I would have liked to see how they played against H2K or IG.

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Their win vs Flash Wolves was the most impressive win of any NA team there, and their win against Pain was still much cleaner than any of C9's wins.

Nope. If you read any comment to the game, sloppy play from CLG was mentioned. And again, was FW with Kkramer they beat

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3n500g/spoiler_counter_logic_gaming_vs_flash_wolves_2015/

C9 win vs aHQ or iG was much cleaner than that, and ahq and iG > pain The problem is that you could sense that CLG simply was lost when they couldn't overpower their adversaries in lane and carry their advantage to the mid-late game and grab the win...basically a thing they were able to do twice in the entire tournament, while the other games they just lose even against not top tier teams

I don't consider C9's fluke games, they only won because of Riot's dumb ass decision to drastically change the game before the biggest tournament of the year.

C9 win weren't technically a fluke, they were just cheesy like for example the period where Gravity was in first place in NA Summer. NA in S5 overall never learned to play more than one meta at time, and when they got figured out they lost. TSM at MSi, CLG and C9 at Worlds, they had 1 way to win, and that way wasn't practicable vs top international competition

And I'm not really arguing for TSM, but they did get a pretty tough group, I would have liked to see how they played against H2K or IG.

TSM would have likely lost vs H2K. H2K was overpowered by EDG and SKT by sheer mechanical skills, but were never in trouble from a rotation/meta/understanding of the game point of view in their group...I don't think TSM would have overpowered them in the same way SKT and EDG did, so I think that in the end the better game awareness of H2k would have given them the edge IG was like LGD, it was totally dependant on them not tilting, because without tilting TSM would have been wiped out, with tilting those teams were losing against almost anyone

I see you bashing Kramer but I literally just watched Kramer hard carry CJ to victory against a top Korean team.

C9 definitely was a fluke, a fluke is a game that went the wrong way because of luck, and C9 got lucky in guessing at the meta.

We don't know TSM would have lost, that's what I would have liked to see. See your saying things like "this might have given them the edge" but that's all going off opinion. Regardless, I think it would have been a fairly close match and at the very least a very good match to watch.

Vs IG i think it depends on which Kakao shows up, but even that is speculation. Honestly I'm kind of annoyed that IG went over QG, because the only reason they went was because of (again) a fluke based on the new patch (China gauntlet was played on juggernaut patch). And most analysts agree QG would have been by far the better representative of China. I mean even right now they're undefeated in LPL.

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"The S5 Summer Split had much higher competition than the Spring Split one"

WTF no it wasn't, the top two teams in the region were TSM and CLG and they got fucking trashed at worlds.When you consider that those were two of the best three teams in the region, you really believe that summer split was better than spring.

TSM got trashed at MSI, C9 got trashed at Katowice (where TSM won when they were at their peak form, and didn't face any #1 team in their own region at that tournament, facing as best team during the competition S5 spring FW that was far inferior to Worlds FW) I'm sorry, but NA was terrible when they faced their equivalent international competition (#1 vs #1 team, #2/3 vs #2/3 teams of other regions) throughout the entire S5, so quoting international results doesn't really assess the strength of NA region in the season

S5 NA Summer was considerably better than S5 NA Spring, with the emergence of summer CLG, TL and even Gravity... the core problem is that NA lost so much ground in Spring leading to MSI in comparison to any other major region that even if they got some better in Summer they were so behind that they weren't even cloose to remove the gap, since all the other regions except China improved too in Summer, and NA fans were so busy overhyping their own region and trashing other regions that they started to recognize it only after TSM showing at MSI and thier consequent collapse, which deprived NA of their top international team in NA fans mind (top international team which TSM wasn't from half of Spring going forward, including their Katowice run)

The old C9 had synergy, better than what they have now. And like I said in another post, Meteos is a better jungler than Hai, and they cant win without Hai. So tell me out it doesn't stand to reason that they were better off with the original roster than the mess it turned into before worlds?

NOW they have a different team from S5 Gauntlet-World run...you are trying to mix up things to sustain your idea, which is just not correct, and you are doing it just because you kinda want to give incarnati0n/Jensen the blame for ruining the historic C9 line-up that in your mind was almost flawless and for forcing Meteos to retire...when the truth is different No one of S5 C9 versions were even close to S4 C9 line-up, and sadly, that S4 C9 line-up was greatly declining on their ownlike shown in S5 Spring The S5 Summer C9 team after Hai got back was better than S5 Spring team historic line-up, and the better version of C9 in S5, period. I don't care if you don't want to accpet it in your own close mind, but it just it this way, and you have not bring a valid point to sustain your argumentation that historic C9 line-up wasn't declining on their own and could have rebounded if changes were not done, while I pointed out that 2 guys retired, one wanted to retire but then was recalled and changed role being shifted to a less mechanically intense role because he couldn't stay anymore on mid lane, and one guy that stayed in his own role heavily regressed

Yea, but then i saw Jensen play with a real jungler and I saw what he can do. Jensen currently has a bad mentality, really dependent on Hai, but with Hai he is top 3 in the league atm.

OH can you mention a game where he performed that bad and had hai on the team? Because that stupid shit doesn't happen when Jensen is playing on point. Why are you rating this player based on how he played when he didn't have hai when he plays so better with hai and currently plays with Hai?

I agree he is a liability when they switch in Bunny, but when they switch in Hai, he is top 3 in the league. Pepi is doing bad because he cant 1v9 anymore. I agree there are better mids in EU, but players tend to look worse when their team is shit.

You should really stop underrating Jensen off of the time he played with meteos because he hasn't been that bad in a while. That's like saying Smeb is overhyped as well because a year ago he was one of the worst top laners in Korea.

I'm not under rating him becasue he's done nothing deserving of rating. He is NA that only has 2 native midlaners, thats how low the bar is there. And he still doesn't look good. You call him top 3? Pretty sure right now Bjerg, GBM, and Pobelter would be taken over him in a heart beat. He joined a team that was consistently top tier in their region for 2 years and single handily destroyed that, in the same region.