that game 5 draft was horrific

PoeticJumpshot ·Oct 22, 2017·58 votes·3,157 views

Double tanks no damage and they gave Galio and Janna to a team u know is playing kog. Suicide mission by C9. It was fun though. Thanks for teasing us yet again NA. Shoulda known better than to believe.

38 Comments

KhristophorosOct 22, 201729 votes

It feels like they got paid off.

PVStarOct 22, 201720 votes

Game was over when they gave WE Janna, Kog AND Galio. But hey, good thing they banned Rumble and Xayah, right?

TonyTonyMordecaiOct 22, 20173 votes

Xayah was a fair ban, but I was confused at why they would ban Rumble at all, there were much worse champs to ban, like, oh I don't know, KOG'MAW?!

AiliekpaiOct 22, 201716 votes

Yeah I don't know how you give up Janna, Galio, Gnar AND Kog who had been smashing them in this series. [zombie-brand-mindblown]

PoeticJumpshot Oct 22, 20172 votes

I'm pretty sure they'd take Kog over Kalista at this point, leave 3 op heros up and grab 2 for their one. It doesn't matter which of janna galio kalista they get, you get the other 2. They won game 2 and 3 because of innovation. They lost 4 and 5 for trying to play off the "power" ladder. But when they have 1's and you have 3's and 4's you're going to lose a meta game every time.

BârdOct 22, 201712 votes

They gave WE the best draft they could have asked for without drafting anything to deal with it. It would have been as simple as banning Galio and picking Syndra instead of Orianna.

If they hadn't shat the bed in champ select, they could have easily won that game with the proactive Shen plays.

In the game prior, that was also winnable had Smoothie not forgotten he had a damn ult. In the mid teamfight, that Taric ult was called down 10 seconds after the fight began. That's sad.

PoeticJumpshot Oct 22, 20179 votes

Seriously it was blatantly obvious what was gonna happen. You leave both janna and galio up u have to take one of them. Sej was a terrible pick. It was demonstrated the game before that it would just get shredded why even pick it let alone 2nd pick. The rest of the picks didn't even matter after the first 3 were given away. Shen was clearly a panic pick to prevent another shield on kog and with him and sej you don't have any damage. In the botlane gank you can see that exactly - both jumped on janna and fully combo'd her and she still had enough health to ult and force sej to flash back just to secure the kill. Literally a comp with 0 damage and no true scaling, both solo laners in losing matchups. Feels like a fix to me. There's no way they could be that dumb. Tencent backed up the brinx truck - but it won't matter tbh. SKT SSG in a 5 game skt rematch victory all over again.

This was the easiest possible matchup they could have gotten too. Not too hopeful for NA's future. Cloud 9 is probably the best team they have and if they can't beat a 3 seed Lpl team we don't even deserve 3 teams at worlds. You could put the 10 best NA players on a team and I still don't think they'd reach the finals with their horrendous drafts game after game. LoL isn't that hard to understand. Feeders in silver solo Q understand broken hero's better than these "coaches".

ChompyWulfOct 22, 20172 votes

C9 has been up and down ever since MSI. They had the best overall NA showing this Worlds, but aren't the best NA team. What leaves the future of NA bleak is when TSM, C9, and CLG are among the first franchised, then IMT whose management has done the best in building a contender from the ground up is shut out. Unless we see a major change in management or coaching from those three or a new team do better (but really IMT has been an anomaly compared to how many teams have failed when new) NA will continue to suck.

aransOct 22, 20178 votes

[deleted]

Skins ProjectOct 22, 20175 votes

WE is Chinese

xJLx MCHammerOct 22, 20177 votes

Yeah horribledrabut C9 did good. I’m proud of the day

On another day, they could have won the series. They still did far better than any NA Team

YambrinZOct 22, 20172 votes

Lolwut? They lost just like every other NA team.

Neo RidekhOct 22, 20177 votes

Wtf was their coach thinking...that draft was terrible and we all knew they lost then.

Head ConnoisseurOct 22, 20173 votes

The instant I saw the rumble banned instead of kog'maw or galio, I pretty much knew it was done

PrimaquariusOct 22, 20171 votes

Who bans Rumble lel

aransOct 22, 20176 votes

also fire all of these retard NA coaches

IncrediPhiLLOct 22, 20175 votes

Literally posted the same thing after the draft and got down voted XD

JaceDownAsheUpOct 22, 20173 votes

My question is how did they pick/ban and draft so well for 4 games only to wait until it mattered most and then make every draft mistake in the book. Also I have to believe the East has like 100% winrate on kogmaw at this point. If kog is this good I actually want to see what makes kalista 100% ban at this point because i believe you cant let eastern teams have kog anymore.

Slice n Dice emOct 22, 20173 votes

I mean what is wrong with these people. Stop fhghfdvh blaming it on the drafts. If C9 had lost singed games you would still be crying about draft. It's not the fking draft it's how you play. Ask fkin kkOma about it. You are not always going to win in drafts. If you get some strong shit you are obviously going to lose some thing for it too.

MorticianjohnOct 23, 20171 votes

You can't fault a team for trying to innovate on a off meta pick like singed even when it doesn't work out just right. However, giving up galio in this comp is pretty much gg. Yes, they still have to play the game out, but this is about as close as it comes to actually losing the game in champion select.

korppi tuoniOct 23, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You can't fault a team for trying to innovate on a off meta pick like singed even when it doesn't work out just right. However, giving up galio in this comp is pretty much gg. Yes, they still have to play the game out, but this is about as close as it comes to actually losing the game in champion select.

What does Singed have to do with this? Impact kicked WE's ass with Singed forcing them to ban Singed in the last 2 games. He ran circles around them resulting in the fastest win of the series.

Slice n Dice emOct 28, 20171 votes

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/185418161?t=02h25m14s

here you go, and please go through the whole video. He literally explains the whole thought. And yes keep down-voting me. Still don't understand how people upvoted this thread. The coach is their for a reason he is eligible for his job for a fkin reason.

MorticianjohnOct 29, 20171 votes

I agree that he is a great drafter and that he outdrafted the competition the first 4 games. However, he even admits that in hindsight his team was out drafted. He does mention that they do have above 0% win rate with this comp and they just blew their win condition by giving gnar the first two turrets. I do think this game was lost in champion select (as much as any game could be) but of course it's not all on the coach.

My respect goes out to C9 and Reapered specifically for getting them to this point.

MysterQOct 22, 20172 votes

I have never felt so bad for being right on Pick'ems :(

I really hope C9 proves me wrong.

CarameI FrappeOct 22, 20172 votes

I don't want to assume anything, but I feel like they got paid to lose ........... i'm not joking, c9 isn't that dumb to allow Galio, Janna, KOG MAW of all things to get through. Or maybe they just didn't believe in themselves anymore and felt they've done enough? .. I can't tell, I was shocked they allowed this to happen.

Ventra117Oct 22, 20171 votes

Good job reapered. Leave kog maw up for the kog maw one trick :). Doesn't matter though WE will be smashed by SSG because SSGs players are overall better in every way.

Dr PoroOct 22, 20171 votes

Ban Janna or Galio? Eh... Ban Rumble.

I get it that you leave both open because you could take the other one. But they didn't even pick galio... Galio is even more important than Janna. It was a mistake of WE to not first pick him, it was even worse not to take on first rotation of red side. These players are playing professionally, with a professional coach. How can they not see that Galio is utterly broken right now (80+% winrate in Worlds).

SDhrekOct 22, 20171 votes

They really played great in the first three games, but for some reason, they where just not cloud 9 in the last two.

It was not just the drafts, but there overall play was just off, I have never been one to believe that a team would take money or its scripted, but the way they played in those last games? The Drafts?

That was not cloud 9.

MeritasOct 22, 20171 votes

Never believe.

DradenOct 23, 20171 votes

Well you can tell people have no idea why things were picked/banned, but I agree they should have taken Galio over sej. No one banned lulu/Janna, you can’t ban one on red side, then they get a free bot lane. They picked Janna forcing the cait pick as Janna cait lane destroys.

They wanted to pick lulu before second bans or they would still lose bot lane. I think they didn’t want to pick a solo lane because they didn’t want to get countered, however, I think you have to take Galio.

As far as bans, I agree they should be banning kog. WE picked cait in game 2 and got smashed, mystic is their whole team, don’t let him have kog and I’m confident you almost automatically win the game.

I can see the reasoning, but you have to respect the Galio.

MelvearOct 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Well you can tell people have no idea why things were picked/banned, but I agree they should have taken Galio over sej. No one banned lulu/Janna, you can’t ban one on red side, then they get a free bot lane. They picked Janna forcing the cait pick as Janna cait lane destroys.

They wanted to pick lulu before second bans or they would still lose bot lane. I think they didn’t want to pick a solo lane because they didn’t want to get countered, however, I think you have to take Galio.

As far as bans, I agree they should be banning kog. WE picked cait in game 2 and got smashed, mystic is their whole team, don’t let him have kog and I’m confident you almost automatically win the game.

I can see the reasoning, but you have to respect the Galio.

While Kog was very strong in Mystic's hands, I think the amount of protection he had and the lack of backline access from C9's draft played a huge role in his success. The main reason J4 was banned was because he was lethal on Kog. He delivered Orianna's ball and made sure he couldn't move out short of blowing flash. Boom, dead kog. After the J4 ban, they should have picked something else that could get to him. Galio could have done that, as could have a few assassins. Picking Galio was critical imo. It would have allowed Contractz to play a damage oriented jungler which he's great at and would have put a lot more pressure around the map. Galio exerts pressure just by being mid lane, and a warrior reksai (or something similar) would have been much more impactful in the early stages of the game where C9 wanted to be proactive.

All the picks from C9, taken out of the context of the draft, are fine champions. Ori is one of Jensen's best, Impact is great on Shen, Sneaky had a dominant Cait game in game 1 (despite the loss), Sej is a top winrate jungler and Lulu is one of the better ardent censer support, after Janna. But in the context of this draft, given the bans, the pick order and what they were trying to do, their picks weren't good. A tank top lane against a ranged split pusher, and control mage when you want to delete a backline threat, a tank with low damage output when you need to pressure and kill the botlane to put them behind all just don't make much sense. Cait was first picked, so there's little criticism to be made there.

It's really all in the Galio going through ban phase AND not being picked after Janna. That's where it all crumbled.

PoeticJumpshot Oct 24, 20171 votes

Uhhh. It sort of crumbled before that to some degree. The bans weren't great, they forced a singed ban but had no plan in hand for when that happened - they could have been a lot more creative and opened a situation where they could take multiple power picks. As i mentioned before, I'd gladly leave up janna galio kalista and take 2 of the three. They just were not prepared properly or took a dive for $$$. They felt forced to take both Cait and later on Shen(another global shield would have been hilarious), instead of trying to dictate the pace of the draft phase. Kalista would probably have to be taken by WE, and running a protect the kog/twitch/cait with janna and galio is more broken than anything kalista could accomplish alone. You wouldn't even have to pick your ADC early as they can't ban out all three so you'd still get something great, meaning you have a third pick before the 2nd set of bans to lock a priority pick (or let's say world elite notices you don't ban kalista and they alter their bans, potentially opening up ez/j4/trist). They could have taken singed 3rd if they followed my type of plan, or locked someone like syndra (probably the only true "burst" midlaner left in the meta) and sent galio top. Galio has no weaknesses this patch - clearly 1a for mid or top and janna is clearly 1a support. I think the gap between those 2 and everyone else is bigger than people want to admit to themselves as well. Passing on galio was easily the biggest mistake given the context of how the draft went. The fact they took sej second is just icing on the cake. Probably the most overblown jungler at worlds this patch. Once that Galio pass happened nothing else really mattered. I don't think any meta team comp can burst through janna galio locket heal barrier (peel) and massive lifesteal unless they are way ahead and that would never happen when they have 3 winning lanes.

MelvearOct 25, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=PoeticJumpshot ,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=JEITa9rF,comment-id=001200000000,timestamp=2017-10-24T07:58:32.605+0000)

Uhhh. It sort of crumbled before that to some degree. The bans weren't great, they forced a singed ban but had no plan in hand for when that happened - they could have been a lot more creative and opened a situation where they could take multiple power picks. As i mentioned before, I'd gladly leave up janna galio kalista and take 2 of the three. They just were not prepared properly or took a dive for $$$. They felt forced to take both Cait and later on Shen(another global shield would have been hilarious), instead of trying to dictate the pace of the draft phase. Kalista would probably have to be taken by WE, and running a protect the kog/twitch/cait with janna and galio is more broken than anything kalista could accomplish alone. You wouldn't even have to pick your ADC early as they can't ban out all three so you'd still get something great, meaning you have a third pick before the 2nd set of bans to lock a priority pick (or let's say world elite notices you don't ban kalista and they alter their bans, potentially opening up ez/j4/trist). They could have taken singed 3rd if they followed my type of plan, or locked someone like syndra (probably the only true "burst" midlaner left in the meta) and sent galio top. Galio has no weaknesses this patch - clearly 1a for mid or top and janna is clearly 1a support. I think the gap between those 2 and everyone else is bigger than people want to admit to themselves as well. Passing on galio was easily the biggest mistake given the context of how the draft went. The fact they took sej second is just icing on the cake. Probably the most overblown jungler at worlds this patch. Once that Galio pass happened nothing else really mattered. I don't think any meta team comp can burst through janna galio locket heal barrier (peel) and massive lifesteal unless they are way ahead and that would never happen when they have 3 winning lanes.

I watched that game in 2 parts, first was draft during my first break of the day at work and the rest of the game during lunch break. Just seeing the draft made me not want to watch the game. I had the same sinking feeling I got when I saw TSM pick kog ryze and jayce.

There's a million ways this draft could have gone, and this was one of the worse possible one.

PoeticJumpshot Oct 25, 20171 votes

Yeah I literally came straight to the forums because I had that same expectation and wanted to verify i wasn't crazy. I still watched, but they had no chance. Even in some of the fights where they almost drop kog, they couldn't put a dent in galio when he wasn't being buffed by janna. WE could just pump galio with janna when kog dies and still win a 5 v 4. That's how ridiculously tanky galio becomes for the worlds patch. Nothing is more telling of that fact than sneaky shooting him 10 times late game and not even denting him 20% of his health.

BerylCrabOct 24, 20171 votes

yeah, i literally went to bed after seeing the picks and bans, it was so obvious that c9 would lose. well balanced game lol. Player skill means less than which champions you pick. lololololllllllllllllll

PoeticJumpshot Oct 24, 20171 votes

Player skill isn't meaningless, it's just mostly normalized at pro levels. Impact is really good, but compared to world elites top laner (and the other top teams) he's maybe ever so slightly better? It's just the gap between the top tier pro's is very small, so yeah, meta picks mean more than who is playing them at that point. Player skill does enable them to break meta and have success in very rare situations such as singed though. A lesser skilled played would never make that work.

BerylCrabOct 24, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=PoeticJumpshot ,realm=NA,application-id=9hBQwnEU,discussion-id=JEITa9rF,comment-id=00130000,timestamp=2017-10-24T08:24:54.288+0000)

Player skill isn't meaningless, it's just mostly normalized at pro levels. Impact is really good, but compared to world elites top laner (and the other top teams) he's maybe ever so slightly better? It's just the gap between the top tier pro's is very small, so yeah, meta picks mean more than who is playing them at that point. Player skill does enable them to break meta and have success in very rare situations such as singed though. A lesser skilled played would never make that work.

eh, i disagree. Sure, theres bad players out there. but in reality once you hit a certain level of mechanical skill, all that matters is what champion matchup you are playing into.

PoeticJumpshot Oct 24, 20171 votes

I agree'd with you? Lol not sure what there is a disagreement on. I wouldn't say champion match ups are all that matters though. When you're talking broken or op heros, yeah. They are blanket options that make who you play against meaningless as long as you don't play like a trash can. But in a situation where say, all the true "top tier meta" mid laners are banned, and it's faker on a champ who's supposed to lose against his opponent based on matchup, he would have a more likely chance of winning lane or just farming well than another midlaner in the same situation. I still think there is a player skill window, but it's very situational, and even in the scenario I painted because it's not the 'meta' mids faker coming out ahead in a 'losing' matchup wouldn't be all that of an upset.